Metabolic Efficiency And Metabolic Rate - Doubt

[m_arch]

The results described in the first article and early experimentation with Cl- ions clearly show that the effect is purely mediated by the presence of supra-physiological doses of Cl- ions.

Thiamine does nothing to support this level of Cl-. It is the presence of Cl- that pathogens cannot stand for some reason, and there is no way to achieve this amount of Cl- ions except with direct Cl- supplementation (through Betaine HCL or otherwise).

This has nothing to do with metabolism (in the context of fighting infection).

The use cases for high doses are strictly for infection control when there is active infection present, and this is by far one of the best generic anti-pathogens around. It is not intended as a chronic supplement in high doses, although some people seem to like a chronic low dose, though I don't, and only use it acutely in specific cases.



Standard dose would probably be, Molydenum 300-500mcg x 4 a day, and Manganese 10-20mg x 2 a day, both spread out as evenly as possible, and/or timed with intake of substances that will potentially increase demand for methylation pathways.

Pharmacokinetics are pretty fast with these compounds, which means that effects are seen quickly, and effects are lost quick. Acute dosing will usually demonstrate significant effects, to which one can use as a basis to see if these pathways are indeed compromised in a particular individual. I cannot make recommendations for chronic dosing.

Methyl xanthines are just one of the components that require these transition metals for handling. Some of the material that Koveras posted is useful in determining what else may benefit from this. Generally, any handling of sulfates tends to require such pathways, and this will generalise to foods like certain leafy greens, pork, shellfish, and anything that contains a lot of sulfur-containing amino acids.

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What would an acute safe dosage of betaine hcl look like? is it worth doing as a 'just incase' if youve had some ibs symptoms recently ?

 

[haidut]

Raw Thyroid is subject to a whole bunch of regulatory mechanisms -- less chance of excess.

"Thyroid Meds" like T3 obviously have a direct effect on tissues. I am not a doctor, and no recommendations are made on what are prescription-only meds.

Similarly, no recommendations are made regarding TCM professionals, because I have no professional qualifications whatsoever.



Me keeping Betaine HCL around is as a precautionary measure. When you don't need this, you don't, and when you do, you really do .

Not going to comment much on viruses, except to say that infections are more common than people they think they are , and that a virus (or inhibition of a virus) is usually the first step in permitting a more virulent co-infection from taking hold.

I will not get into the discussion of what a virus is, except to say that the book 'Fear of the Invisible' provides a good model.

For those still interested in viruses, I have already linked to that research paper on the gut virome. Like I said in a previous post, the entire field is very politically charged, and I will not comment on specifics.

The one area that is probably safe to delve into, are the research into Bacteriophages. If one is interested, do some research into the T-even phages, and look at all the bacteria that they affect, and then look at the virome profile of various people (where you will see that some people have certain phages, and some people don't .... which means that some people are innately resistant to the bacteria that the phages target).

Then, if still interested, look up Bacteriophage therapy, which has a history of very effective use (almost 100 years), but has been largely ignored by Western Medicine (probably because it was a "Communist Science").

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I'm not going to comment further on the testing methodologies that I use. Like I've said, if I meet someone in person, I will assess the relationship, and convey the information if appropriate. But never online, and never in public.

I do not have any formal training whatsoever, and hence am not qualified to speak formally about the subject.

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The only other online source of TCM information (other than Jerry Allan Johnson) I trust online is Subhuti Dharmananda -- Institute for Traditional Medicine | ITM | Portland, OR



Reading diet, there is a whole system of eating for the season and what not in order to "tonify the particular Qi or Jing" of a particular organ in its "low or high season", etc, etc ..... As I've said above, I personally think that is impractical and overly dogmatic. All I focus on is on the elimination of foods that actively cause stress in an individual at a particular time.

In that regard, I eschew the approach of saying that a particular food is "good" or "bad". Coffee will cause some sick people much grief. I still can't handle large quantities of dairy proteins. Some people will keel over from a little bit of gluten (while I do not, at almost any quantity). Some people can't handle strawberries .....

Same with the comment on Thyroid -- use it when it is needed. I do not buy the dogmatic approach of TCM, and frankly, of all the herbs that are used, only maybe 40-50 are actually useful .... I am not well versed in formulation however, so do not take this comment seriously.

All disease does not come from the heart ..... . IMO, emotional imbalance are always secondary to pathology. Also emotions don't come from the heart (ask the people who have tried breathing exercises that directly stimulate the region around the Solar Plexus)

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Because we can physically modify those points as documented by the Chinese, and see systemic effects in the body (which is exactly what acupuncture does).

And because Ayurvedic medicine has discovered the same points (actually, Ayurveda has much more points ....).

And because the modern practice of Osteopathy has discovered similar behaviour in fascia, along with a whole bunch of "reflex points" (points which when stimulated, reliably produce a particular movement reflex in the rest of the body).

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Care to comment on what Betaine Hcl has to offer more compared to thiamine Hcl (which raises acid directly and through CO2) and/or glycine (chloride channels)?

 

[amethyst]

I used that exact same product in the past and can confirm it works wonders. However I don't want to become hooked to those. There is controversy if continuosly giving the body digestive enzymes supress your own production.

Yeah, it really has helped my digestion. But I'm on the same page as you- I don't want to have to depend upon them forever...I do tend to take them more often with a meal that has more fat. Not as often if I am eating starch or fruit. But I do think it's a good idea to take a hiatus from using them too often.

 

[tyw]

What would an acute safe dosage of betaine hcl look like? is it worth doing as a 'just incase' if youve had some ibs symptoms recently ?

Honestly, I've never seen any health issues in people using up to 30 grams of Betaine HCL a day. The biggest side effect is the discomfort of the accompanying heartburn-like effects. Effective doses seem to start around 6 grams in a single dose.

Again, this is for infection clearance.

IBS is a whole different story that usually requires different cures. These usually tend to be pretty harsh herbs with strong alkaloids, and require more controlled doses. Though honestly, the most generic "Huo Xiang" / agastache rugosa seems to work just fine for many at the recommended doses. (This is sold as 藿香正气散, huo4 xiang1 zheng1 qi4 san4)

Care to comment on what Betaine Hcl has to offer more compared to thiamine Hcl (which raises acid directly and through CO2) and/or glycine (chloride channels)?

I've already established that it's the supra-physiologic levels of Chloride ions are causing the anti-pathogenic effect. These have to be provided by an external source.

Keep in mind the context that I've qualified for use -- removing of existing active infections, whether they be viral, bacterial, protozoan, archae, etc ... I am not talking about chronic use to "keep pathogens at bay" or anything like that. We have an existing infection, and we want to kill it as quickly as possible.

Thiamine HCL will not provide anywhere close to the required dosages to see this sort of effect. Note how we are talking of sometimes 30+ grams of Betaine HCL a day.

Thiamine has a higher molecular weight than commonly used Betaines, so the equivalent does of Cl- ions requires even more Thiamine HCL by mass. There is no way to achieve the required dose of Cl- through Thiamine HCL, without also overdosing Thiamine to a ridiculous degree and suffering lots of negative side effects.

Ok, thanks for your answers tyw.

Regarding TCM approach... I don't think it's dogmatic. I think it's TCM practitioners (and/or obsessive patients) who make it dogmatic. Besides that, I think TCM is very valid as a health practice. The only problem is I don't think it's ready to cope with XXI century stressors: call it social problems, chemical pollutants, poor quality food, etc. All that is too much to expect it to be healed with just herbs or accupuncture.

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Regarding emotional/physical illness... Well... I don't know what to think. I linked you that article so you could have another point of view. I think it's plausible. So if you think illnesses do not come from nutrition, and don't come from mental issues. Where do they come from ?

Illness stems from the 4 types of "injury" that are defined in Chinese Medicine. I have talked about this in another post -- Carbonic Anhydrase Is A Key Driver Of Aging; Inhibiting It Is Beneficial

The point "(2) Invasion of External Pathogens" is the biggest wildcard -- one which those from a Western medical background will find hardest to accept, and one which Eastern mysticism will rear its ugly woo-woo head.

Case in point: Go look up the Melbourne "Thunderstorm Asthma November 2016" that is ongoing right now. "External Pathogens" include everything from larger scale electromagnetic phenomena such as that recent storm, which preferentially affected particular people in particular parts of their body, to specific organisms that burrow into your body and cause all sorts of havoc.

The approach that Chinese Medicine takes to diagnosis is the only thing that becomes useful in this regard. We do not need to raise the question of "why did this pathogen invade?", and instead seek to answer "which systems are damaged?", and "in what way are they damaged?". Then, we can do the same old 3-step Purge-Tonify-Balance procedure.

I have talked about how "Traditional Chinese Medicine" today is really a Communist-party-distilled version of Chinese Medicine, and not the original "Thousands Schools of Chinese Medicine", where each family had their own unique methodology. This has instilled a certain dogma right into the heart of the existing system.

In any case, I've also commented in the past that it is the diagnostic methodology of Chinese Medicine that is the most useful, while the treatment methodology is sorely lacking. That is why you hear me talk about Western Pharmacological cures like Betaine HCL, or specific trace minerals, etc .... It is the combination that produces the best results.

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[haidut]

so the equivalent does of Cl- ions

What about glycine? It does raise acid production even in doses as low as 2g-3g per sitting. It is postulated to do that by opening up the chloride channels.
And since we are on that topic - what about plain salt? It has as much chloride as betaine and with a molar mass of only 1/3 that of the betaine Hcl, you'd need ~10g daily to get the same effects of the 30g betain HCl. And there are no methylation issues with eating extra salt. And incidentally, this 10g - 12g daily dose is the cutoff below which serotonin starts to rise and the catecholamine system goes in overdrive.

 

[SB4]

Honestly, I've never seen any health issues in people using up to 30 grams of Betaine HCL a day. The biggest side effect is the discomfort of the accompanying heartburn-like effects.

I'm almost definitely an outlier but experienced a great increase in symptoms on I think 20g ish of betaine hcl. I speculate it was too many methyl groups causing excess adrenaline but IDK.

 

[papaya]

Thanks for laying that out Koveras; I haven't gotten to 11 yet, but I think I will do so.

Interesting; for lithium, do you use orotate, and what's your dosing schedule like? Do you think it's detrimental long-term? People seem to do well on it for bipolar disorder, and even just for its anxiolytic purposes, lithium seems appealing.

i tried a teeny tiny crumble of a lithium orotate pill & it made me exhausted. not in a sleepy way, but in an extreme hypothyroid feeling way. i tried it a few diff times to make sure it was from the lithium. i was taking 2g thiroyd at the time. not sure if that was a factor. i've since sort of stopped taking thyroid but might go back on it.

 

[Amazoniac]

http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/alzheimers2.shtml:
"The older the person is, the more emphasis should be put on protective inhibition, rather than immediately increasing energy production. Magnesium, carbon dioxide, sleep, red light, and naloxone might be appropriate at the beginning of therapy."

@Orion, thanks to your upload I read again those articles.

 

[paymanz]

what happens if you increase energy production in older people without protective inhibition?

 

[javacody]

@tyw can you please answer this one?

What about glycine? It does raise acid production even in doses as low as 2g-3g per sitting. It is postulated to do that by opening up the chloride channels.
And since we are on that topic - what about plain salt? It has as much chloride as betaine and with a molar mass of only 1/3 that of the betaine Hcl, you'd need ~10g daily to get the same effects of the 30g betain HCl. And there are no methylation issues with eating extra salt. And incidentally, this 10g - 12g daily dose is the cutoff below which serotonin starts to rise and the catecholamine system goes in overdrive.

 

[tyw]

@tyw can you please answer this one?

It was answered, but a bunch of the comments in this thread were moved to a separate thread.

My response was here -- Traditional Chinese Medicine (TCM)

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[misery guts]

Honestly, I've never seen any health issues in people using up to 30 grams of Betaine HCL a day. The biggest side effect is the discomfort of the accompanying heartburn-like effects. Effective doses seem to start around 6 grams in a single dose.

Again, this is for infection clearance.

Tyw, do you think the betaine would be useful for trying to clear pathogenic microbes in the gut, along with infections? And if so, would using a powder (like this http://www.bulksupplements.com/betaine-hcl.html ) be ok, or would it perhaps be absorbed too fast before reaching a desirable place along the GI tract?

Thanks.

 

[tyw]

Tyw, do you think the betaine would be useful for trying to clear pathogenic microbes in the gut, along with infections? And if so, would using a powder (like this http://www.bulksupplements.com/betaine-hcl.html ) be ok, or would it perhaps be absorbed too fast before reaching a desirable place along the GI tract?

Thanks.

I don't see it effective for all pathogens. Have to test and figure out, and that is something for a doctor to do.

I don't see a problem with the powder form though. Taste will be a big problem though (very sour).

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[Ella]

I think digging into the underlying cause of ill health needs more than simply biochemical understanding. We are complex layered dynamic open systems...

Spot on lisa. This is why at every cancer centre worldwide: meditation, pray and spiritual work is incorporated into the treatment.

An accurate metaphor to use is the coordination required in a game of Tug of War; the difference between everyone pulling "in phase", vs not, is tremendous. In the context of the cell, I personally view a loss of this coordination to be enough to bring a cell down to energetic levels that could trigger the "Apoptosis or Oncogenesis" decision.

tyw, thank for your efforts, this is brilliant stuff and I totally agree.

that the conductivity of collagen is directly related to its Hydration levels. Water is the key element that enables collagen to do what it does.

Yes, definitely.

Red Light communication between cells requires that there be present water around the cells that can channel charge efficiently. Only this sort of water can allow for the propagation of light signals. (Gilbert Ling calls this "polarised-oriented-multilayer water", Gerald Pollack calls it "Exclusion Zone (EZ) water" or "charge-separated water". In any case, water in this state is way way more conductive than water in the normal bulk phase)

Love this work.

I also personally believe that mitochondria require this sort of water in order to propagate charge, and thus become coherent (again, in the purely physical sense of "Same Frequency, Constant Phase Difference"). This is demonstrated by Douglas Wallace and colleagues in their work on Trans-mitochondrial membrane junctions, and the Inter-mitochondrial coordination that occurs -- Trans-mitochondrial coordination of cristae at regulated membrane junctions : Nature Communications

Excellent work.

This is a coordination and communication problem, not a problem with absolute quantities energy.

Well said.

 

[raypeatclips]

Co2 also regulates gastric acid output.

Do you think something like bag breathing could improve gastric acid production and aid with healing digestion?

 

[haidut]

Do you think something like bag breathing could improve gastric acid production and aid with healing digestion?

Yes, it should. Glycine, which also raises gastric acid output trough chloride channel opening, also has very beneficial effects on digestion.

 

[raypeatclips]

Yes, it should. Glycine, which also raises gastric acid output trough chloride channel opening, also has very beneficial effects on digestion.

Interesting, thanks. Any ideas how much bag breathing a day would be beneficial? My gut is horrendously sensitive at the moment, I've been reading a lot of your posts and narrowed down that taurine, glycine, thiamine, niacinamide and caffeine all have positive actions on the gut, have I missed anything? Tried some red bull earlier for the caffeine and taurine and it reacted badly with my gut. It's difficult because a lot of what helps the gut is really irritating at the moment. Taking 0.5mg cypro x2 and 50mg doxycycline at the moment.

 

[paymanz]

Oral Molybdenum doses are effective at around 300-500 mcg. Personally, I would go with the higher range.

Absorption efficiency through the gut is very poor, maybe 3-5%, and chelated molydenum is water soluble

Here in this study they report very high absorption rate of molybdenum,
Molybdenum absorption, excretion, and retention studied with stable isotopes in young men at five intakes of dietary molybdenum. - PubMed - NCBI

Molybdenum was very efficiently absorbed, 88-93%, at all dietary molybdenum intakes, and adsorption was most efficient at the highest amounts of dietary molybdenum.

Another
Molybdenum uptake, absorption and excretion in humans

.
in water solution 100% absorption for administration up to 1 mg,

with solid foods reduced to 50% absorption

with black tea 10% or less absorption.

Only the process of renal excretion is influenced by the total amount of molybdenum in the systemic circulation.

 

[tyw]

Here in this study they report very high absorption rate of molybdenum,
Molybdenum absorption, excretion, and retention studied with stable isotopes in young men at five intakes of dietary molybdenum. - PubMed - NCBI

Another
Molybdenum uptake, absorption and excretion in humans

Context needs to be specified, and the full text needs to be read in that context -- Molybdenum Intake Influences Molybdenum Kinetics in Men. "Very high absorption rate" was observed with low doses of molybdenum. "Low Dose" means <467 micrograms / day intake, which is definitely not enough to see clinical benefits in practice.

(Some notes of Clinical use are described at the end of this post)

Once you go above that small 460+ mcg dose, excreation rates increase exponentially, way upwards of 70%.

Keep in mind the differences between IV and Dietary Molybdenum, and that this study used 3 IV doses that would rapidly skew results. IV molybdenum dosing is not recommended in clinical practice.

"Near 100% absorption rate from small intestine into serum" of Aqueous solution is specifically for the case of molybdenum dissolved in dilute HCL and water, taken presumably on an empty stomach.

This is the context for the statement:

When Mo in aqueous solution (0.5 - 5 mg Mo in ca 0.005M HCl) was administered to 3 healthy human volunteers on a total of 15 occasions, at doses up to 1 mg almost complete uptake (by intestinal absorption) of Mo was observed and only a slight decrease (< 30%) for higher doses [Werner et al., 1998].

Paper: Werner, E., Giussani, A., Heinrichs, U., Roth, P., Greim, H., Biokinetic studies in humans with stable isotopes as tracers. Part 2: Uptake of molybdenum from aqueous solutions and labelled foodstuffs, Isotopes In Environmental And Health Studies, 1998,.34, 297-301.​

Then, "Addition of black tea reduced the absorbed fraction by about a factor of ten. (ie: less than 10% absorption)". Absorption also was greatly reduced with food.

Keep in mind that all of this is still done with aqueous solutions of molybdenum, and not the amino-acid chelates that are used in clinical practice.

Then, just because molybdenum gets into serum, doesn't mean that it gets into tissues. The first study clearly shows the mechanic for Urine excretion is very active. Add this to the fact that "Plasma clearance is fast:: mean sojourn time in the transfer compartment is ca 100 min.".

This is why in clinical practice, you need to dose Molybdenum at least 3 times a day to see improvements. The use of amino acid chelates taken orally is always the recommended route, and from all the patient cases that I've seen over the years, this minimum-3-times-a-day dosing protocol is exactly what is needed (while less frequent dosing didn't yield the desired results).

The kinetic studies will show doses of around 400mcg being the ones that significantly impact serum concentration (which again, is a very transient boost). Doses of at least 300-500mcg were what was necessary for patients to see benefits of molybdenum supplementation.

The kinetics of molybdenum use are very fast, and thus the time window for benefit is very small. This also means that one can tell within 30-60 mins whether or not a dose of molybdenum is working.

Again, based on clinical practice reports, I will say that there are many many many patients who claim to be intolerant to fatty foods, or intolerant to coffee (especially those people who have seemingly psychological disturbances like anxiety), who would see almost all symptoms go away by simply remembering to take 300mcg of molybdenum 30 mins before ingesting said foodstuff.

There is some evidence for longer hepatic retention, which is most likely because the liver is exactly where this particular mineral needs to be used the most. There are no studies on hepatic depletion, but based on clinical observations, it is clear that whatever the amount of molybdenum can be retained by the liver is not enough.

Note that this sort of treatment doesn't fix the underlying issue. What this mineral does is to help tonify the enzymatic systems (mostly liver-specific) that are required for processing of various xenobiotics or metabolic substrates should they be consumed.

SIDENOTE: I can't seem to find my whole cache of research done during administration of Amy Yasko's protocols ..... that is where the "3-5% absorption" figure for molybdenum amino-acid chelates taken with mixed-meal was taken from. If I find those notes, I will post the relevant material here.

In general though, more frequent dosing is always the way to go in clinical practice. Some protocols will dose up to 6 times a day during initial recovery periods. I can agree with such practices in certain contexts.
​

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[paymanz]

Thanks for details.I appreciate also if you recall more and share , as you mentioned.

Probably I need to re read them to understand.

But I just think if the >500 MCG dose is what you think has the therapeutic value then the lower dose(but still higher than RDA/DRI) may do the trick but it just takes longer duration.

Like if you see improvements with dosage you mentioned in 2weeks, then with 100-150 mcg you see the improvements in 6-8 weeks.