Ray Peat Diet / Protocol Name?

[johns74]

Plus, somebody already laid out what a Peat diet is, if there is one, in those images with Peat foods that you can find online. So this whole Peat diet endeavor is a complete waste of time, as if there exists a Peat diet, you can already find it neatly illustrated with pictures.

 

[narouz]

Telling them a diet obviously won't work because it will contradict their doctors advice. At least if they're sick. If they aren't, they won't even ask for a new diet.

So you'll have to explain the principles, if they're open to it, at which point they have enough knowledge to deduce what a good diet is, so in the end, whatever diet you told him to practice is not very relevant. Probably that's why there is no Peat diet. Peat didn't create a diet because once you know the principles it's easy to derive a good diet.

If they don't know which aspect of the diet causes what changes (e.g., avoiding PUFA), they would have no goals, no expectaions, no idea if anything is working, so they'll abandon the effort.

Thank God (and Peat) there is no Peat diet, as it would be so worthless as shown above, and for many other reasons not stated.

Many insights here,
thanks!

 

[narouz]

Plus, somebody already laid out what a Peat diet is, if there is one, in those images with Peat foods that you can find online. So this whole Peat diet endeavor is a complete waste of time, as if there exists a Peat diet, you can already find it neatly illustrated with pictures.

You really will have to excuse us stupid posters, johns!

 

[narouz]

I've been meaning to post the full definition of the word "protocol."



pro•to•col
ˈprōdəˌkôl,ˈprōdəˌkäl/
noun
noun: protocol
1. 1.
the official procedure or system of rules governing affairs of state or diplomatic occasions.
"protocol forbids the prince from making any public statement in his defense"
o the accepted or established code of procedure or behavior in any group, organization, or situation.
"what is the protocol at a conference if one's neighbor dozes off during the speeches?"
synonyms: etiquette, conventions, formalities, customs, rules of conduct,procedure, ritual, accepted behavior, propriety, proprieties, one's Ps and Qs, decorum, good form, the done thing, the thing to do,punctilio
"a stickler for protocol"
o COMPUTING
a set of rules governing the exchange or transmission of data between devices.
plural noun: protocols
2. 2.
the original draft of a diplomatic document, especially of the terms of a treaty agreed to in conference and signed by the parties.
synonyms: agreement, treaty, entente, concordat, convention, deal, pact,contract, compact;
formalconcord
"the two countries signed a protocol"
o an amendment or addition to a treaty or convention.
"a protocol to the treaty allowed for this Danish referendum"
3. 3.
a formal or official record of scientific experimental observations.
o a procedure for carrying out a scientific experiment or a course of medical treatment.

 

[Jennifer]

Plus, somebody already laid out what a Peat diet is, if there is one, in those images with Peat foods that you can find online. So this whole Peat diet endeavor is a complete waste of time, as if there exists a Peat diet, you can already find it neatly illustrated with pictures.

You really will have to excuse us stupid posters, johns!

LOL narouz! It's not because you guys are stupid posters, it's because you're too smart for your own good. The smart ones always over complicate things.

I always go back to the simplicity of diet that Ray wrote in his diabetes article:

"I think the basic anti-aging diet is also the best diet for prevention and treatment of diabetes, scleroderma, and the various "connective tissue diseases." This would emphasize high protein, low unsaturated fats, low iron, and high antioxidant consumption, with a moderate or low starch consumption. In practice, this means that a major part of the diet should be milk, cheese, eggs, shellfish, fruits and coconut oil, with vitamin E and salt as the safest supplements. It should be remembered that amino acids, especially in eggs, stimulate insulin secretion, and that this can cause hypoglycemia, which in turn causes cortisol secretion. Eating fruit (or other carbohydrate), coconut oil, and salt at the same meal will decrease this effect of the protein. Magnesium carbonate and epsom salts can also be useful and safe supplements, except when the synthetic material causes an allergic bowel reaction..." RP

http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/diabetes.shtml

And for a more current look at Ray's diet - "The details vary slightly according to what's available. Daily, milk, fruit (mainly orange juice), eggs, butter, cheese and coffee. As available, liver, shrimp, squid, oysters, cod, sole, ox-tail soup, chicharrones (puffed pork rind), sapotas, pawpaws, cherimoyas, guanabanas, guavas, carrots, bamboo shoots, small turnips, corundas."

I have to laugh because if you ignore the possible macronutrient differences and just focus on the foods, the "basic anti-aging diet" Ray lays out looks almost identical to the WAPF diet I did after I got hurt. That diet actually revived me despite my consuming full-fat dairy instead of low-fat.

My skin on that diet was unbelievably soft and my teeth became bright white to boot! Daily I had 3+ quarts of full-fat raw milk, some raw cheese, a couple eggs, lots of bone broth, a few ounces of shellfish (mostly scallops and crab), homemade raw butter and/or coconut oil. I avoided starches and instead ate lots of fruit as my carb source. Seems like I've come full circle and should of just skipped that whole complicated RBTI period.

If it were me and someone asked what diet I was doing, I would tell them my diet is one big fruity sundae! And not that toffuti junk either. The real deal! :)

 

[narouz]

And if you look at the etymology of the word "protocol,"
you can see the "authoritarian" accents.

Origin
late Middle English (denoting the original record of an agreement, forming the legal authority for future dealings relating to it): from Old French prothocole, via medieval Latin from Greek prōtokollon ‘first page, flyleaf,’ from prōtos ‘first’ + kolla ‘glue.’ Sense 1 derives from French protocole, the collection of set forms of etiquette to be observed by the French head of state, and the name of the government department responsible for this (in the 19th century).

So, I do think Peat doesn't like the smell of the word.

On the other hand,
consider, for example, Peat's recent KMUD interview
where he talked enthusiastically about Methylene Blue.
One of the studies he likely relied upon
was apparently a very well done study
with all the adequate controls and
protocols.
You know, like
one group was given 15 mg
another group was given 30 mg
still another group given 60 mg
for X amount of time
and found that 60 mg was most markedly improved
blah blah blah...

I bet Peat likes well-designed studies, with proper controls, and with...protocols.
So...my take...you gotta balance those sides of Peat.

 

[narouz]

Plus, somebody already laid out what a Peat diet is, if there is one, in those images with Peat foods that you can find online. So this whole Peat diet endeavor is a complete waste of time, as if there exists a Peat diet, you can already find it neatly illustrated with pictures.

You really will have to excuse us stupid posters, johns!

LOL narouz! It's not because you guys are stupid posters, it's because you're too smart for your own good. The smart ones always over complicate things.

I always go back to the simplicity of diet that Ray wrote in his diabetes article:

"I think the basic anti-aging diet is also the best diet for prevention and treatment of diabetes, scleroderma, and the various "connective tissue diseases." This would emphasize high protein, low unsaturated fats, low iron, and high antioxidant consumption, with a moderate or low starch consumption. In practice, this means that a major part of the diet should be milk, cheese, eggs, shellfish, fruits and coconut oil, with vitamin E and salt as the safest supplements. It should be remembered that amino acids, especially in eggs, stimulate insulin secretion, and that this can cause hypoglycemia, which in turn causes cortisol secretion. Eating fruit (or other carbohydrate), coconut oil, and salt at the same meal will decrease this effect of the protein. Magnesium carbonate and epsom salts can also be useful and safe supplements, except when the synthetic material causes an allergic bowel reaction..." RP

http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/diabetes.shtml

And for a more current look at Ray's diet - "The details vary slightly according to what's available. Daily, milk, fruit (mainly orange juice), eggs, butter, cheese and coffee. As available, liver, shrimp, squid, oysters, cod, sole, ox-tail soup, chicharrones (puffed pork rind), sapotas, pawpaws, cherimoyas, guanabanas, guavas, carrots, bamboo shoots, small turnips, corundas."

I have to laugh because if you ignore the possible macronutrient differences and just focus on the foods, the "basic anti-aging diet" Ray lays out looks almost identical to the WAPF diet I did after I got hurt. That diet actually revived me despite my consuming full-fat dairy instead of low-fat.

My skin on that diet was unbelievably soft and my teeth became bright white to boot! Daily I had 3+ quarts of full-fat raw milk, some raw cheese, a couple eggs, lots of bone broth, a few ounces of shellfish (mostly scallops and crab), homemade raw butter and/or coconut oil. I avoided starches and instead ate lots of fruit as my carb source. Seems like I've come full circle and should of just skipped that whole complicated RBTI period.

If it were me and someone asked what diet I was doing, I would tell them my diet is one big fruity sundae! And not that toffuti junk either. The real deal! :)

Jennifer-
You know...that's not bad!
Really, if one could get access
on a reliable affordable basis
to great ripe Peatian fruits,
and
combine that with lots of high quality milk (ice cream)...
that's got a lot going for it
in terms of being very optimally Peatian,
in my opinion.
I can imagine approaching it as
different versions.
And the "big fruity sundae" seems like maybe a great fundamental variation/accent....

 

[narouz]

What if we evolved
A Peat Derived Dietary Universe.

That sounds horrible, I know.
But bear with me.
We could call it a better name...

Okay, so, we could present like 5 Kinds of
Basic True-to-Peat
Genres of Diet.

Like:
1. pboy's ZenPeat variation
2. jennifer's BigFruitySundae variation
3. marcol's Beef an' Taters variation
4. straight RayPeat
5. etc..for a few more...not infinitely more...a few more. Like 7 total or so.
It could go higher over time.

Then charts showing underlying congruence of general principles,
The Peat Principles!

 

[tara]

@narouz,
Yes, and when they ask, 'so what is this diet?' you and I would probably want to describe it differently, and maybe we would both describe it in different wasys to different audiences. I'll have a go at it when I can get it together in my head.

tara-
You mean, to your redneck (do they have those downunder?) friends
you would would say:
"Yeah, steak and potatoes every night, baby!"...?
While to your uppercrust academic buddies
you would say:
"Fruit and cheese, fruit and cheese, topped off with a cappuccino!"...?

Well, I suspect steak and potatoes every night would be movement in a Peatish direction for a few of my undernourished or bread-staple friends.
With my academic or physiology trained friends and family I'm more likely to be able to use words like mitochondria and hypoxia and thyroxine and triiodothyronine without having to explain what they mean.
To someone with diabetes who eats little fat I've been known to talk about the value of B-vitamins and fructose-glucose balance and potassium and other minerals in fruits being potentially more likely to keep blood sugars stable than grains.
To someone who has margarine on the table every day, I talk about some of the conequences of PUFAs and recommend butter as better, and maybe give a jar of coconut oil for cooking. In this case, the coconut oil gets used (good), but perceived standard public health advice takes priority over my perceived rebellious ideas, so I'll have to work on improving my message.
To someone with long-standing undereating or recurring low-calorie diet attempts, I'd probably talk, as I have here, about how many calories someone might need to run everything, and how the body adapts to famine by reducing metabolism and catabolising organs, so that such dieting can become a never-ending no-win game. I'd be encouraging more carbs, more protein, more food overall, but avoiding vegetable oils.
With people who complain of insomnia, I talk about my experience with more sugar, night time snacks, and keeping my mouth shut at night, and other peoles experience with sweetened milk and/or salty snacks.

Though for all this, i can't say I've had much success. My guess is that some of them would be more interested if I presented as an example of radiant health, with my chronic migraines behind me. And fair enough, too.

It really needn't be so mindbending.
Hell, our own illustrious pboy--just off the cuff!--tossed off a wonderful rough sketch
up the thread a couple pages:
"I guess if you had to say, it would be milk orange juice weekly liver, weekly shellfish, coffee, sugar, gelatin, raw carrot or bamboo shoots, and an optional egg or 2 a day...
...but then cheese, coconut oil, salt, various supplements, cream, some other fruits, greens broth, even occasional small amount beef or lamb, are all like...you shouldn't need them, or they might not be available, but are good in moderation or in certain situations. Then you have even another category below that with like...dunno, chocolate, coke, greek yogurt...we've been through this before! I guess you could make a long list of completely unacceptable, then more acceptable, then certainly acceptable."

I mean, I'm convinced pboy is a genius, but still...
he probably gave it all of 15 seconds thought.
And yet it is a pretty accurate rough sketch,
which would serve the purpose quite well--
the purpose being, concisely answering your friend's simple, reasonable question:
"What is a Peat diet?"

Yes, pboy is often brilliant. And yes, it's a nice quick beginning summary of what seems to work for quite a few people. But not everyone, and that is important. Quite a lot of people here can't eat like that, at least at the beginning. That's why the principles are important, and the specifics may vary.
It does not describe how Jenn recovered, or Mittir, for example, and it doesn't straightforwardly work for me at this stage, or Jennifer. So it's fine as a casual and common example, but for it to be formally specified as THE Peat diet would, in my opinion, be incorrect. That's why principles, guidelines, and examples would better describe it, in my opinion.

 

[tara]

I always go back to the simplicity of diet that Ray wrote in his diabetes article:

"I think the basic anti-aging diet is also the best diet for prevention and treatment of diabetes, scleroderma, and the various "connective tissue diseases." This would emphasize high protein, low unsaturated fats, low iron, and high antioxidant consumption, with a moderate or low starch consumption. In practice, this means that a major part of the diet should be milk, cheese, eggs, shellfish, fruits and coconut oil, with vitamin E and salt as the safest supplements. It should be remembered that amino acids, especially in eggs, stimulate insulin secretion, and that this can cause hypoglycemia, which in turn causes cortisol secretion. Eating fruit (or other carbohydrate), coconut oil, and salt at the same meal will decrease this effect of the protein. Magnesium carbonate and epsom salts can also be useful and safe supplements, except when the synthetic material causes an allergic bowel reaction..." RP

http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/diabetes.shtml

Yes Jennifer! This is a description of important characteristics of a Peat-inspired/derived diet, without saying anything in particular is completely forbidden, and gives some idea about what a practical application might be.

If you also add in the things he has said at other times about avoiding foods that cause particular digestive irritation, or are allergenic, and favouring sugar oxidation over fat for CO2 etc, it covers quite a lot. He's made some other somewhat similar summaries in other places.

 

[visionofstrength]

@VoS,
I think your list is interesting, and potentially valuable.

I do not think most of these are general recommendations from Peat to everyone, but specific suggestions for particlar contexts.
I think it is your list, not Peat's, especially wrt quantities, and this is best explicitly acknowledged. (By all means acknowledge that you draw on ideas from Peat and Haidut.)
Otherwise I think you would be misrepresenting Peat, which I consider disrespectful to him and potentially confusing to others.

That said, a few of them do seem generally applicable, like sleep, OJ, carrot salad, salt, potato juice, liver, oysters, milk and cheese, low PUFA, and some of them you have reasonably phrased more generally 'as needed'. And many of the others may well be helpful in some contexts, though not necessarily at exactly the amounts you have specified.

Some of it seems directly contradictory to what I have read of Peat's more general recommendations, as far as I can see.
For instance:
* I have seen Peat recommend doses of 100 mg niacinamide 2 or more times a day, not 250mg.
* He has said that various macronutrient ratios can work, but when he has been more specific, they tend to look more like carb:protein of 2:1 or higher. Eg, 80-100 g protein for hypothyroid person, 130-150g for healthy adult (out of ~3000 cals), possibly more for someone very active. He clearly favours more carbs than fat as major fuel source for restoring metabolism.
* Thyroid supps he has clearly said need to be adjusted individually. I think it i very important for people to understand more about this befoer they start experienting, and especialy to know what to watch for to see if they are getting too much. Lots of people here have got themselves into trouble supplementing thyroid. I know Peat says it is often useful, but it does need to be treated with some care.
* With some possible exceptions (salt, niacinamide, vit-E, often thyroid?), Peat does seem to be much more cautious about continuous use of lots of supplements than this list suggests.
* I have not seen Peat recommend 1/4 cup of activated charcoal for every digestive upset. Usually his first recommendations are carrot salad and avoiding irritating substances. He has explicitly expressed concern about the particle size of available activated charcoal. I'm not saying he has never suggested using it - he has, and it does seem to have a useful place for people at times - but not so unreservedly and generally as you suggest here.
* I thought his calcium recommendation was more like 2g, not 5g (though he has referred to some particular healthy populations as eating up to 5g)
* Magnesium, I thought his recommendation for most people was more like 400mg, not 2g, though some people may benefit from more (and some euthyroid people may require less). How do you get 'magnesium bicarbonate (~50 mg per ounce)'? Are you referring to a saturated magnesium bicarbonate solution?
I'm not up with his precise recommendations for fat soluble vitamins, so I won't comment on that.
* Methylene blue: I know he has referred to some helpful effects from methylene blue for various conditions, because of its assistance in part of the respiratory chain, but has he really suggested everybody start using it?

I would hate to see a new-comer find this list as a first introduction, and think this is what The Peat Diet/Protocol is, and that Peat thinks they should immediately start doing them all. It could have a number of problematic consequences, ranging from being written off immediately as impossible or crazy, through to being followed to the letter without sufficient heed to individual needs and getting people into serious health crises.

Again, I do value your thinking about this, and that you share the methods that you are finding to work well for yourself. How about phrasing the title and introduction clearly as what you have been doing and finding useful, instead of presenting it as a protocol for everyone?

Thanks very much, exactly what I was hoping for. Will incorporate.

Yes, no worries about authenticity, as I've said. I'll run a finished product by Peat when it's ready, and then it should launch on a website where there are at least 10-20,000 daily visitors and a low bounce rate. Here, there are only 177 average unique visitors a day, with a 30% bounce rate!

As I think quite a few of the members here have tried to say, the larger audience needs simple, clear instructions on what to do, and when to do it, leveraging the great simplicity of Peat's ideas. Hypothyroidism, obesity, fatigue, sexual dysfunction and infertility are some of the degenerative diseases caused by estrogenic damage, and the millions who suffer from those diseases need practical ideas they can do at home or at work. Fortunately, you can find that, or I at least I did, in Peat's books and newsletters.

 

[tara]

Yes, no worries about authenticity, as I've said. I'll run a finished product by Peat when it's ready, and then it should launch on a website where there are at least 10-20,000 daily visitors and a low bounce rate. Here, there are only 177 average unique visitors a day, with a 30% bounce rate!

Might be worth bringing his response back here for review too. You've been known in the past to interpret Peat's comments to mean the opposite of how others take them.
Also, if you are planning on publishing to a broad audience, I'd let him know that is your intention, so he can choose to express himself with contextually appropriate caution.
And don't put his name on it without his explicit agreement.

 

[visionofstrength]

Well, his name doesn't help with an audience broader than the devotees here, and the equally small audience at peatarian, since I suspect that he's been blacklisted for his truth-telling, and in the blogosphere he's been much maligned, wrongly, as an extremist. Of course, freedom of speech in the US allows one to write what you want about him, as long as it's not libelous.

But you raise a good point: it would be the right thing to do if the forum changed its name to something other than raypeatforum.com, since he's not in fact associated with the forum or given his explicit agreement.

 

[tara]

Of course, people have the legal freedom of speech to talk all sorts of nonsense, and often do.
You are surely not confounding legality with morallity?

If I were Peat, I'd be very unhappy about someone publicly posting a fabricated list of somewhat extreme recommendations under my name. Especially if someone got hurt following it, but also if it confused people about what I had really said. Would I consider it libelous? Maybe.

But you raise a good point: it would be the right thing to do if the forum changed its name to something other than raypeatforum.com, since he's not in fact associated with the forum or given his explicit agreement.

It's usually pretty clear here that we are ABOUT Peat's ideas, not BY Peat, and that the authors of the posts are many. I have no idea if Charlie checked the forum name with him at any stage. Do you know that he didn't? People here quote Peat, which is fine as long as it's accurate and not out of context, and from time to time people get called out for misrepresenting him when we make inaccurate claims about what he has said. I don't consider misrepresentations of Peat OK here either. Very occasionally, someone posts here hoping for an answer from Peat, and they are quickly informed of his absence.

My point is, I don't think it is OK to make it look as though it is Peat's list of generally recommended supplements etc unless he agrees explicitly to that, knowing something relevant about the context you intend to publish it in. Otherwise, I think it should be presented as your list, with acknowledgement to Peat for some of the ideas, maybe some references to articles on his website if you think they are relevant. Since you don't expect the name Peat to be usefully meaningful to most of your audience to begin with, this shouldn't be a problem, right?
As far as I can tell, Roddy for instance handles this with intellectual honesty: he is clearly the author of his own books, and he presents them as including his interpretation of Peat's ideas for the context he is addressing, and his own suggestions for diet etc based on that.

 

[aquaman]

My point is, I don't think it is OK to make it look as though it is Peat's list of generally recommended supplements etc unless he agrees explicitly to that, knowing something relevant about the context you intend to publish it in. Otherwise, I think it should be presented as your list, with acknowledgement to Peat for some of the ideas, maybe some references to articles on his website if you think they are relevant.

100% agree.

 

[visionofstrength]

Of course, people have the legal freedom of speech to talk all sorts of nonsense, and often do.
You are surely not confounding legality with morallity?

If I were Peat, I'd be very unhappy about someone publicly posting a fabricated list of somewhat extreme recommendations under my name. Especially if someone got hurt following it, but also if it confused people about what I had really said. Would I consider it libelous? Maybe.

But you raise a good point: it would be the right thing to do if the forum changed its name to something other than raypeatforum.com, since he's not in fact associated with the forum or given his explicit agreement.

It's usually pretty clear here that we are ABOUT Peat's ideas, not BY Peat, and that the authors of the posts are many. I have no idea if Charlie checked the forum name with him at any stage. Do you know that he didn't? People here quote Peat, which is fine as long as it's accurate and not out of context, and from time to time people get called out for misrepresenting him when we make inaccurate claims about what he has said. I don't consider misrepresentations of Peat OK here either. Very occasionally, someone posts here hoping for an answer from Peat, and they are quickly informed of his absence.

My point is, I don't think it is OK to make it look as though it is Peat's list of generally recommended supplements etc unless he agrees explicitly to that, knowing something relevant about the context you intend to publish it in. Otherwise, I think it should be presented as your list, with acknowledgement to Peat for some of the ideas, maybe some references to articles on his website if you think they are relevant. Since you don't expect the name Peat to be usefully meaningful to most of your audience to begin with, this shouldn't be a problem, right?
As far as I can tell, Roddy for instance handles this with intellectual honesty: he is clearly the author of his own books, and he presents them as including his interpretation of Peat's ideas for the context he is addressing, and his own suggestions for diet etc based on that.

No, I've had to say many times to visitors here, that the views expressed in this forum are not those of Ray Peat. I think the misuse of his name may be responsible for the high bounce rate. At the very least, a disclaimer should be prominently displayed on every page.

If Peat had an attorney who vigorously defended Peat's marks, which he doesn't, the attorney would send Charlie a cease and desist letter if only to protect his client's interests. This is not a fan site, and instead dilutes the value of Peat's intellectual property. J.K. Rowlings is an example of someone who enforced the law against a fansite that she felt diluted her interests, and prevailed in court.

I haven't said anything until now because you were the one who raised the issue. For me, it may be a moral issue and a legal issue that overlaps, because you know Peat is relying on you to do the right thing.

And no, whether on moral or legal grounds, I'd never make a forum that uses Peat's name like this forum has for all this time without his explicit agreement.

I, personally, am utterly free to write reviews of Peat's work as I do, that use Peat's name, when I am clearly the author of the review. It's called the right of fair use, and it's fundamental to free speech. No one can object to that on legal grounds, other than frivolously. That you would find that "libelous" smacks of contempt for our fundamental liberties.

 

[cantstoppeating]

My point is, I don't think it is OK to make it look as though it is Peat's list of generally recommended supplements etc unless he agrees explicitly to that, knowing something relevant about the context you intend to publish it in. Otherwise, I think it should be presented as your list, with acknowledgement to Peat for some of the ideas, maybe some references to articles on his website if you think they are relevant.

100% agree.

Indeed.

Danny Roddy always mentions the issue of context when discussing Peat.

vos doesn't bother with context but takes his supplements and presents them as 'daily allowances' everyone should be taking.

vos has his own personal agenda and is trying to push it by misconstruing Peat's work.

 

[cantstoppeating]

Couldn't resist:

 

[Philomath]

Couldn't resist:

You should resist. That's childish.

 

[cantstoppeating]

Couldn't resist:

You should resist. That's childish.

oh please, who called the fun police?