Is RP Philosophy Mainly Oriented To An Ill Public?

Agent207

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I read most on here that theres no "RP diet" but I see the general tone of the forum a "little too much" one-sided.

Pushing cherry-picked studies (if the study conclusion doesnt agree with our expectings > it may be some kind of pharma/industry interest or something flawed on methodology, if it agrees > "RP right again"), constant over-emphasizing on the most remote strategies to hit estrogen, serotonin, NO... at all cost, like pretending a permanent need for an ever less -or at least its what it appears-.. that, or presuming everyone here is ill. Is this general concept of RP oriented forum philosophy intended for an ill public?

Its like thinking anyone that hasn't been following all this guidelines will have excess estrogen, serotonin... etc. There are sometimes when I wonder about thisn when reading the forum.

I personally don't see RP perspective exclusively oriented to a specific health state, but for everyone; yet the individual approach from it will differ for different people and conditions. But its like the general forum mindset focuses only on the RP ill-applied protocol variant, where everyone will suffer from estrogen, serotonin, lack dht, is pufa poisoned, etc.

I say this because it can be an issue for someone new here who isn't in that scenario, but could get the impression he/she needs to follow that specific path intended here as an "unified RP universal protocol", when he just may be looking to learn minor things to apply to improve his lifestyle but wont have excess estrogen, serotonin...
 
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if the study conclusion doesnt agree with our expectings > it may be some kind of pharma/industry interest or something flawed on methodology, if it agrees > "RP right again"

yeah lol "there is PUFA in the rat chow" classic
 

Pointless

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I read most on here that theres no "RP diet" but I see the general tone of the forum a "little too much" one-sided.

Pushing cherry-picked studies (if the study conclusion doesnt agree with our expectings > it may be some kind of pharma/industry interest or something flawed on methodology, if it agrees > "RP right again"), constant over-emphasizing on the most remote strategies to hit estrogen, serotonin, NO... at all cost, like pretending a permanent need for an ever less -or at least its what it appears-.. that, or presuming everyone here is ill. Is this general concept of RP oriented forum philosophy intended for an ill public?

Its like thinking anyone that hasn't been following all this guidelines will have excess estrogen, serotonin... etc. There are sometimes when I wonder about thisn when reading the forum.

I personally don't see RP perspective exclusively oriented to a specific health state, but for everyone; yet the individual approach from it will differ for different people and conditions. But its like the general forum mindset focuses only on the RP ill-applied protocol variant, where everyone will suffer from estrogen, serotonin, lack dht, is pufa poisoned, etc.

I say this because it can be an issue for someone new here who isn't in that scenario, but could get the impression he/she needs to follow that specific path intended here as an "unified RP universal protocol", when he just may be looking to learn minor things to apply to improve his lifestyle but wont have excess estrogen, serotonin...

Well I'd say 99% of people have been raised to think that PUFA is good, especially fish oil, that serotonin is good, that HRT is a viable treatment option. Then we all stumbled upon Ray Peat at some point, and kicking and screaming, he led us to the truth. Now that all of our preconceptions have been proven wrong time and time again, it's easy to develop a bias against things that have been proven wrong scientifically and in our own personal experience.

I, for one, have had life-changing improvement in my health, and I've tried dozens of different supplements, devices, diets. That goes a long way. If a study comes out saying that PUFA is good, like that epidemiological one that was posted a few weeks ago, I'm not suddenly shipwrecked on my whole diet and health plan. I keep going with what I'm doing because IT WORKS.

So yes this can be dangerous. There's a danger of becoming ideological. This comes up a lot. It's not something we're not familiar with. But for the time being I'm happy where I'm at. In the future, I'm sure my ideas can be refined a little bit, but I don't anticipate Ray Peat's foundational ideas to be completely overturned or disproved in the future. His epistemology is sound, and he makes it clear how certain he is of certain truths based on his writing style.

As for decreasing estrogen and serotonin being unnecessary if you're in good health, energetic potential can always be expanded. Increase functional energy, and evolution happens. Health is not a state where nothing is wrong with you. That's a conventional paradigm that only goes so far. Health is the capacity to adapt to one's environment. There's always room for improvement. Even people in excellent health are still managing their micros and macros, getting blood tests, using supplements judiciously, etc.
 

NathanK

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Can't argue with Agent (and I wouldn't know how to change it if i could)... There is a lot of over generalizing specific hormone roles when all of them wear at least a half dozen hats in concert with others.

There is a perspective that most people in the modern world that can read and understand this forum is unhealthy due to a lifetime of indoctrination in an inherently pro serotonergenic world. I can't argue with that either, but it is also an over generalization because everyone lay on a spectrum of health.

I'm too far deep to imagine what it may be like for someone new to come to this forum. The knowledge curve is steep and it does take a leap of faith to go against the zeitgeist. Then again, I could imagine new people coming here looking for the RP Magic Pill Deluxe and just take all of Haidut's supps without any real Ray Peat depth of knowledge and then call that Peating.
 

Bodhi

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In every health scene i have hanged out so far and believe me there where many many...

They ALL have one thing in common

Conformation Bias....
 

jaguar43

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I read most on here that theres no "RP diet" but I see the general tone of the forum a "little too much" one-sided.

Pushing cherry-picked studies (if the study conclusion doesnt agree with our expectings > it may be some kind of pharma/industry interest or something flawed on methodology, if it agrees > "RP right again"), constant over-emphasizing on the most remote strategies to hit estrogen, serotonin, NO... at all cost, like pretending a permanent need for an ever less -or at least its what it appears-.. that, or presuming everyone here is ill. Is this general concept of RP oriented forum philosophy intended for an ill public?

Its like thinking anyone that hasn't been following all this guidelines will have excess estrogen, serotonin... etc. There are sometimes when I wonder about thisn when reading the forum.

I personally don't see RP perspective exclusively oriented to a specific health state, but for everyone; yet the individual approach from it will differ for different people and conditions. But its like the general forum mindset focuses only on the RP ill-applied protocol variant, where everyone will suffer from estrogen, serotonin, lack dht, is pufa poisoned, etc.

I say this because it can be an issue for someone new here who isn't in that scenario, but could get the impression he/she needs to follow that specific path intended here as an "unified RP universal protocol", when he just may be looking to learn minor things to apply to improve his lifestyle but wont have excess estrogen, serotonin...

I think you are on to something. The problem may lie in the very philosophy or concept of "health" in the western world. We don't think of health as conditions, environments, or individuation but what we eat and what type of exercise we do. It's like a form of reductionism for health.

I think you bring up a good point regarding estrogen and serotonin and how they are portray on the forum. Like you said it may seem to the newer members that they have those characteristics to begin with, or that they will feel the need to work on those issues. I think that can misdirected them.
 
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EIRE24

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Can't argue with Agent (and I wouldn't know how to change it if i could)... There is a lot of over generalizing specific hormone roles when all of them wear at least a half dozen hats in concert with others.

There is a perspective that most people in the modern world that can read and understand this forum is unhealthy due to a lifetime of indoctrination in an inherently pro serotonergenic world. I can't argue with that either, but it is also an over generalization because everyone lay on a spectrum of health.

I'm too far deep to imagine what it may be like for someone new to come to this forum. The knowledge curve is steep and it does take a leap of faith to go against the zeitgeist. Then again, I could imagine new people coming here looking for the RP Magic Pill Deluxe and just take all of Haidut's supps without any real Ray Peat depth of knowledge and then call that Peating.
Yes at hormones roles wearing half a dozen hats but it's the same with vitamins. I know I've said it before but for my specific concern with acne all I ever get met with is vitamin A and liver which has never worked for me
 

Drareg

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I read most on here that theres no "RP diet" but I see the general tone of the forum a "little too much" one-sided.

Pushing cherry-picked studies (if the study conclusion doesnt agree with our expectings > it may be some kind of pharma/industry interest or something flawed on methodology, if it agrees > "RP right again"), constant over-emphasizing on the most remote strategies to hit estrogen, serotonin, NO... at all cost, like pretending a permanent need for an ever less -or at least its what it appears-.. that, or presuming everyone here is ill. Is this general concept of RP oriented forum philosophy intended for an ill public?

Its like thinking anyone that hasn't been following all this guidelines will have excess estrogen, serotonin... etc. There are sometimes when I wonder about thisn when reading the forum.

I personally don't see RP perspective exclusively oriented to a specific health state, but for everyone; yet the individual approach from it will differ for different people and conditions. But its like the general forum mindset focuses only on the RP ill-applied protocol variant, where everyone will suffer from estrogen, serotonin, lack dht, is pufa poisoned, etc.

I say this because it can be an issue for someone new here who isn't in that scenario, but could get the impression he/she needs to follow that specific path intended here as an "unified RP universal protocol", when he just may be looking to learn minor things to apply to improve his lifestyle but wont have excess estrogen, serotonin...

This is the good thing about the forum,it can mirror your current state back to you.
This is the importance of the dialogue.

If people go to the introduction page within the forum they will get a good step by step into to what goes on here.
 

Kyle M

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Yes of course, RP developed much of his ideas when dealing with sick people coming to ask his advice.
 
L

lollipop

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I also wonder if part of the OP's thoughts about sick people might be in some way true. Why would a normally healthy person ever search for something more or new, other than the rare soul who is seriously curious?

Suffering is often the catalyst for change. Change means seeking, searching, experimenting and someone with an open mind will find Ray Peat. Closed minded folks seem to not find him or if they do, reject him immediately.

Kyle M's remark above sort of points this out.
 

dbh25

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I'm new here, and I certainly haven't found a "unified RP universal protocol". There always seems to be debate, except for oj, skim milk, fruit and avoiding PUFAs. I'd like to be leaner (thankfully no suffering/sickness), I hope with experimenting to find what works and what does not for me.
 

jaguar43

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I also wonder if part of the OP's thoughts about sick people might be in some way true. Why would a normally healthy person ever search for something more or new, other than the rare soul who is seriously curious?

Suffering is often the catalyst for change. Change means seeking, searching, experimenting and someone with an open mind will find Ray Peat. Closed minded folks seem to not find him or if they do, reject him immediately.

Kyle M's remark above sort of points this out.

Trying to improve energy and health shouldn't necessarily mean that you are sick. There may be certain deficits but I don't think I would label them as being sick. If you mean by healthy as the absence of diseases and health issues then one is truly healthy when one is dead. I think it's more complex than that, which is what the OP was saying in the first place.
 

Fractality

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There are pro-active healthy people who are interested in quality of life along with boosted longevity. It's a sort of hobby. I do think that the majority of people in our modern world can be defined as "sick" in some way as well.
 

Kyle M

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Trying to improve energy and health shouldn't necessarily mean that you are sick. There may be certain deficits but I don't think I would label them as being sick.
What are you replying to?
 

Peater Piper

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Pushing cherry-picked studies (if the study conclusion doesnt agree with our expectings > it may be some kind of pharma/industry interest or something flawed on methodology, if it agrees > "RP right again")
I've seen studies supposedly supporting Peat that had questionable results, in my opinion, along with other studies that seemed to be dismissed without good reason other than not totally favoring Peat's ideas. Not that I don't think the majority of the science is sound, and I could be viewing things incorrectly because of a lack of knowledge, but there does seem to be a lack of impartiality at times. Bias is just a fact of life, and it's everywhere.

I also wonder if part of the OP's thoughts about sick people might be in some way true. Why would a normally healthy person ever search for something more or new, other than the rare soul who is seriously curious?

Suffering is often the catalyst for change. Change means seeking, searching, experimenting and someone with an open mind will find Ray Peat. Closed minded folks seem to not find him or if they do, reject him immediately.

Kyle M's remark above sort of points this out.
I agree with this. Peat's ideas are esoteric. If a person is already reasonably healthy following more mainstream ideas, I'm not sure they're going to be able to wrap their heads around consuming copious amounts of sugar, coffee, milk, aspirin, etc. There's exceptions of course. I know some people on here have said they're healthy, but are looking to take their health even further, but I assume the majority have had longstanding health issues that more typical diets have failed to correct, thus opening up their minds to more obscure solutions since the standard practices have failed.
 

Drareg

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I've seen studies supposedly supporting Peat that had questionable results, in my opinion, along with other studies that seemed to be dismissed without good reason other than not totally favoring Peat's ideas. Not that I don't think the majority of the science is sound, and I could be viewing things incorrectly because of a lack of knowledge, but there does seem to be a lack of impartiality at times. Bias is just a fact of life, and it's everywhere.


I agree with this. Peat's ideas are esoteric. If a person is already reasonably healthy following more mainstream ideas, I'm not sure they're going to be able to wrap their heads around consuming copious amounts of sugar, coffee, milk, aspirin, etc. There's exceptions of course. I know some people on here have said they're healthy, but are looking to take their health even further, but I assume the majority have had longstanding health issues that more typical diets have failed to correct, thus opening up their minds to more obscure solutions since the standard practices have failed.

Can you list the studies in question? On Peats articles?
 

Drareg

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Yes of course, RP developed much of his ideas when dealing with sick people coming to ask his advice.

The op is questioning how he perceives the forums tone not Ray Peat.
The title is misleading.
 
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Peater Piper

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Can you list the studies in question? On Peats articles?
I'll have to look around for them, but I wanted to clarify that it was studies posted on this forum, not by Peat himself, and I felt in some cases how the results were viewed (either positively or negatively), were being influenced by a desire to conform them to Peat's line of thinking. I love all the scientific studies posted here, and generally agree with their interpretation other than on a rare occasion.
 
OP
A

Agent207

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I agree with this. Peat's ideas are esoteric. If a person is already reasonably healthy following more mainstream ideas, I'm not sure they're going to be able to wrap their heads around consuming copious amounts of sugar, coffee, milk, aspirin, etc. There's exceptions of course. I know some people on here have said they're healthy, but are looking to take their health even further, but I assume the majority have had longstanding health issues that more typical diets have failed to correct, thus opening up their minds to more obscure solutions since the standard practices have failed.

Thats it. A healthy, good-thyroid and homonal-balanced person, liberally rising up sugar, caffeine, milk, and removing natural food sources becouse pufa, phytoestrogen... etc, I think it hardly gonna make him much good in the better of the cases.

NOW, if someone has a free-look at Peat's work (by himself, not through this forum) that "open-minded" person could benefit from thinking...

- "well, even if I already never did stupid things like supplementing fish oil and loading on vegetable oils, now I know the science for won't do it ever and control that dietary pufas won't go high by rutine"
- "I always tried to avoid table sugar, but now I know that social fear is mongering and theres nothing wrong if I take it sometimes here and there, to sweeten something or whatever..."
- "The serotonin is not the happy molecule all the media yells out (f*** bigpharma) but this is no problem to me as I don't have mood/libido problems and for the moment I don't rely on any substance to push it up/down; but if I ever need to, its good to know"
- etc, etc...

I think thats the point. But thats far from the general forum mindset. Its something considered "approved" here going on 7-8 cups of coffee /day (bc RP does it), replacing sugar for starches with no point even if you always did right with starches, starting to drink quarts of cola-sodas.... and at the same time freaking out of having a handful of nuts becouse "pufas" when you always liked it as a snack (see "snack", not having a kg of them), or erradicating food sources like legumes becouse "phytoestrogen" when you may always have been perfectly hormonal balanced.

It may seem exagerated, but looks like this is what RP philosophy has become on this forum, what it has been reduced to, what is left from aaaall his GREAT work.
 
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Drareg

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Thats it. A healthy, good-thyroid and homonal-balanced person, liberally rising up sugar, caffeine, milk, and removing natural food sources becouse pufa, phytoestrogen... etc, I think it doens't make him any good in the better of the cases.

NOW, if someone has a free-look at Peat's work (by himself not through this forum) that "open-minded" person could benefit from thinking...

- "well, even if I already never did stupid things like supplementing fish oil and loading on vegetable oils, now I know the science for won't do it ever and control that dietary pufas won't go high by rutine"
- "I always tried to avoid table sugar, but now I know that social fear is mongering and theres nothing wrong if I take it sometimes here and there, to sweeten something or whatever..."
- etc, etc....

I think thats the point. But thats far from the general forum mindset. Its something considered "approved" going on 7-8 cups of coffee /day (bc RP does it), replacing sugar for starches with no point even if you always did right with starches, starting to drink quarts of cola-sodas.... and at the same time freaking out of having a handful of nuts becouse "pufas" when you always liked it as a snack (see "snack", not having a kg of them), or erradicating food sources like legumes becouse "phytoestrogen" when you may always have been perfect hormonal balanced.

It may seem exagerated, but looks like this is what RP philosophy has become on this forum, what it has been reduced to, what is left from all his work.

No not exaggerated at all, every single member of the forum behaves this way.....all the time.
Why don't you tell us whats really wrong,express your true feelings dude.....

Ray Peats articles are located here and are not reduced for those interested -http://raypeat.com/
 

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