Hashimoto's (Autoimmune Diseases) And Peat Protocol

[jnhermann]

Narouz: Have you had your thyroid antibodies tested?? Dr. Kharazian says that he has found that 90% (!!) of hypothyroid individuals have thyroid antibodies. This means that 90% have an autoimmune disease (Hashimotos). Mainstream medicine never tests thyroid antibodies. So most hypothyroid patients never know they have an autoimmune condition.

This might explain the fact that thyroid isn't working well for you. Hashimotos patients typically dont respond well to thyroid supplements because Hashimotos is a secondary thyroid issue, not a primary one. In hashimoto's the critical first step is stoping the immune attack.

If you havent had your thyroid antibodies tested anytime recently, get them tested.

Isadora, I wouldn't give up Dr. K treatments for the sake of Peat. I think both can co-exist. I look at Peat as a diet plan (ie. Paleo). But auto-immune conditions are a very difficult animal to tame. Dr. K is essentially the only doctor in the world who is successfully treating hashimotos (and he can treat any auto immune condition). If I were you I would call his office and request to have a doctor consultation remotely via phone. My guess is Dr. K treats patients remotely via lab tests and phone consultations as do a lot of well known doctors. See what Dr. K says about your lupus concerns. Dr. K can treat any auto immune condition, not just hashimotos. The fact is, with auto immune, chances are better than not that one has multiple attacks (ie. thyroid + pancreas, etc etc). Dr. K treats the whole body like any other good holistic doctor. Then if you can also find an Applied Kinesiologist near you, he/she could be very useful for muscle testing different treatments/supplements. Your body will confirm through muscle testing what will work and what wont so you arent wasting time and money on ineffective treatments. Once there is a confirmation via muscle testing that a substance/supplement will work on your condition, they can even do another muscle test to determine how much or how many (capsules) your body needs per 24 hours for it to be effective! It's really wild. I told you about how Dr. K's X-FLM just muscle tested well on me (to support my Th2). So my AK doctor muscle tested me again for how many capsules per day would work. Four capsules did not strengthen me...but 5 capsules did. That means I need to take 5 capsules a day (at least for now). When I go back in 30 days, I will test again. Maybe my body will tell us that I will only need to take 3 per day next month. Muscle testing always provides the perfect answer with no guess work. I can't recommend it highly enough. You have to experience it. You will be blown away at how intuitive the body is. :)

 

[narouz]

Thanks, jh.

I did read (still have it somewhere) Dr. K's book
(are we all avoiding spelling it out? I know I never could seem to remember.).

He had the...what?...like 7 major categories of possible thryoid screw-ups,
and then exfoliated that into like 21 further possible forms of dysfunction, right?

I was diagnosed as Hashimoto's 5 years ago.
That endocrinologist just said he was sure that's what it was.
I don't know what he based that view upon.

I do recall, I think, that Dr. K see's most hyperthyroidism as an auto-immune problem, right?
And I remember he was very against gluten.

I remember being favorably impressed by his book.
As I recall I found it hard to diagnose what category of his I belonged in.
I tried a lot of his ideas--ditching gluten,
using some of the supplements and herbals he recommended.
It didn't seem to help me.

One general impulse of his approach was that he wanted his patients
to do all these different things to fix the auto-immune problem.
And after that is fixed one is supposed to sometimes see a big reduction in the need for thyroid supplement.
I never found that to be true in my case.

I spent a year or two under the influence of that general mindset--
that one is primarily trying to reduce the amount of thyroid supplement needed.
So I was always resisting my halfway-alternative doctor's advice to raise my dosage.
I now feel like that was not a very helpful thyroid gestalt, for me.
And that would seem to be a big difference in PeatWorld:
Peat says a lot of people need the thyroid,
and there's not a whole lot of any way around that.
Your thyroid's got to function well for your health to be good,
and if you don't make enough thyroid hormone
you gotta take it--and enough of it.
Peat doesn't generally advise to try to scale back on thyroid supps.
Just the opposite: if you need them, Peat says take 'em--and dose liberally following symptoms and signs.

 

[jnhermann]

Hi Narouz,

Isn't thyroid disease FUN??!! :)

It sounds like you never had your thyroid antibodies tested. Since Dr. K says that he has experienced a 90% rate of Hashimotos in thyroid patients, even if you havent confirmed it through antibody tests, it's likely you do have Hashimotos.

From what I have gathered, thyroid supplementation isn't always effective with Hashimotos. I got diagnosed a year ago. I have yet to take any thyroid supplementation. Although I should probably give it a shot and see what happens. It makes sense to try the synthetic (Cytomel, etc) since it could be that antibodies might attack the natural dessicated thyroid since the antibodies obviously identify thyroid tissue as an invader.

Have you tried the synthetic (Cytomel) ones that Peat recommends or have you been taking the natural form?

I dont know why but I've been a little nervous about taking thyroid. It all seems so confusing about how much to take, when to take it, T4/T3, etc.

 

[narouz]

Hi Narouz,

Isn't thyroid disease FUN??!! :)

It sounds like you never had your thyroid antibodies tested. Since Dr. K says that he has experienced a 90% rate of Hashimotos in thyroid patients, even if you havent confirmed it through antibody tests, it's likely you do have Hashimotos.

From what I have gathered, thyroid supplementation isn't always effective with Hashimotos. I got diagnosed a year ago. I have yet to take any thyroid supplementation. Although I should probably give it a shot and see what happens. It makes sense to try the synthetic (Cytomel, etc) since it could be that antibodies might attack the natural dessicated thyroid since the antibodies obviously identify thyroid tissue as an invader.

Have you tried the synthetic (Cytomel) ones that Peat recommends or have you been taking the natural form?

I dont know why but I've been a little nervous about taking thyroid. It all seems so confusing about how much to take, when to take it, T4/T3, etc.

Yeah--wonderful!

Yes, I've had the TPO test.
I guess I never paid a lot of attention to it,
because I was always operating under the assumption I have Hashimoto's.

A few years ago, before discovering Peat, when I bought the Dr. Kharrazian's book,
I really got into that way thinking and I had a lot of hopes.
I did try a lot of his suggested therapies--ditching gluten, gut-healing, herbs, supplements, etc.
Unfortunately I just didn't feel/measure any improvement.
I kept on trying to lower my thyroid dose
because that seemed to be part of Kharrazian's gameplan.
But whenever I would lower my thyroid I wouldn't feel any better
and my doctor would look at my labs and tell me I needed more thyroid.

I started off on straight T4 and that made me feel a little better at first
(my TSH was like 60 when they first noticed a problem; that doctor had me on 200mcg Synthroid
almost immediately.)
but then didn't help.
I switched to NDT and didn't feel much better...maybe slightly better.
Then I switched to CynoPlus, the synthetic T4/T3 that Peat uses.
Again...not much difference that I could tell.
I too had heard the theory that antibodies might attack the NDT.
This was one reason I had for trying the CynoPlus.
But as I say...not much change.

So now I'm exploring the wonderful world of Thyroid Resistance
and Circadian Dosing!

And jn:
I wouldn't be shy about taking thyroid supplementation.
I was, and I don't think that got me anywhere.
In fact, I think it slowed me down.
I wanted to believe that the answer did not involve taking a hormone--
it sounded so weird to me. Wrong. Unnatural. Etc.
But really, it Is natural if you aren't making enough yourself.
It is Unnatural to be trying to operate on low thyroid.
Unnatural and unhealthy.
I say get thee some thyroid pronto.
Not T4.
I'd try a good NDT or CynoPlus.
It won't hurt you and you can't become addicted.

 

[Isadora]

Jeff, thank you for encouraging me to review my history with Dr. K's thinking and what brought me to believe more in Dr. Peat's ideas -- there was actually a missing link there, and that is Dr. Haskell, whose videos I want to see again after reading Dr. Peat.

I now understand that Dr. Peat sounded so right because I had liked what Dr. Haskell had to say -- but now I'm thinking that Dr. Peat may have been Dr. Haskell's inspiration. You see, I see Peat's effect everywhere -- but it makes sense, he's been "there" for all these years and practitioners and other scientists may have come across his work before we did.

So take a look at how Dr. Haskell presents the antibodies theory and how it somewhat falls in line with Dr. Peat's -- AntiTPO and AntiTGA are there to clean up the dead thyroid gland cells and their spilling of TPO (enzyme) and TGA (protein found within the thyroid gland cells). Like Dr. Peat, Dr. Haskell rejects the idea that antibodies attack self tissue. Destruction comes from something else, and antibodies are just being nice and performing cleanup tasks. Too much H2O2 may have harmed the thyroid gland and caused cell destruction as the TSH "commanded" it to produce more and more hormones, and there were no materials to produce them with (potential lack of iodine/zinc/selenium). So it is not as much about the overall metabolism, it's more about lack of certain nutrients, which could be addressed. Or it may have been a combination of both.

What I had initially disliked about Dr. Haskell's proposed protocol (really, narouz, you too should take a look at this and maybe attempt it, since you are already versed in using thyroid) -- was precisely the use of thyroid hormones (I think he recommended Armour) in the recovery process. Hormone supplementation seemed such a big issue to me and my doctors were discouraging me from doing it. Now, after reading Dr. Peat and seeing how many people play around with this stuff I am no longer scared to try it too...

Dr. Haskell's approach is a lot more Peatarian than Dr. K's, I think.

But I don't want to shake your confidence in Dr. K, Jeff, by all means, do what you feel might be good for you. After all, maybe both approaches are helpful and may address the underlying issue of the thyroid malfunction. Your low level of antibodies is very encouraging and maybe indeed you are right to stay away from hormonal aids -- if you are not feeling bad, that is. If you are tired and your quality of life has decreased, then maybe you should consider Haskell's advice if you don't get rapid improvement with the non-hormonal supplementation and diet optimization alone. But there is a strong possibility that even Dr. Peat's diet alone could improve matters considerably for you. I, for one, hope it will.

 

[Isadora]

Is there a limit to the number of edits we are allowed for each post? I find sometimes I cannot edit mine. I just wanted to add a link to Dr. Haskell's video series.

 

[j.]

Is there a limit to the number of edits we are allowed for each post? I find sometimes I cannot edit mine. I just wanted to add a link to Dr. Haskell's video series.

There is a time limit. I think this forum should stand for freedom and remove all such barriers.

 

[narouz]

Is there a limit to the number of edits we are allowed for each post? I find sometimes I cannot edit mine. I just wanted to add a link to Dr. Haskell's video series.

There is a time limit. I think this forum should stand for freedom and remove all such barriers.

I think you need a new handle, j.,
like FreedomFighter or LibertyLover or something!

 

[Mittir]

Isadora
I read your post about cessation of smoking . I was diagnosed with Hashimoto few years after quitting.
I read that smoking masked underlying thyroid problems and it shows up once you quit smoking.
I have been following Ray Peat for last 3 years( strictly last 2 years), diagnosed 6 years ago. According to RP most hashimoto diagnosis are not correct. Increase in antibody often happen due to increase in estrogen. Interestingly Nicotine is a major
anti-estrogen( aromatase inhibitor). I read about Dr K's suggestions and many other online health expert's blogs.
I had huge improvement only after i started following Ray Peat. His writing is complicated, not easy to absorb. It is a continuous task. But he has been right about everything. New to this forum and hope to learn more.
Mittir

 

[charlie]

Mittir, welcome to the forum.

 

[narouz]

Isadora
I read your post about cessation of smoking . I was diagnosed with Hashimoto few years after quitting.
I read that smoking masked underlying thyroid problems and it shows up once you quit smoking.
I have been following Ray Peat for last 3 years( strictly last 2 years), diagnosed 6 years ago. According to RP most hashimoto diagnosis are not correct. Increase in antibody often happen due to increase in estrogen. Interestingly Nicotine is a major
anti-estrogen( aromatase inhibitor). I read about Dr K's suggestions and many other online health expert's blogs.
I had huge improvement only after i started following Ray Peat. His writing is complicated, not easy to absorb. It is a continuous task. But he has been right about everything. New to this forum and hope to learn more.
Mittir

Thanks and Welcome, Mittir!
That is wonderful stuff on smoking, nicotine, thyroid, and estrogen,
and stuff I really hadn't seen before.
I was wondering if you could elaborate on any of it, enlarge on it:
-did you find any of through consultations with Peat?
-in the stuff which would seem to come from Peat's writings, could you point a direction?
-of the stuff that may've come from sources other than Peat, could you similarly point a direction?

I would very much appreciate it!
Thanks!

 

[pboy]

I smoke tobacco, but it is pure organic tobacco out of a glass pipe, lit with a hemp wick that I douse with olive oil (Basically no outside toxins/endocrine disruptors)

When I was at my peak low metabolism during the winter, almost unable to sleep, no appetite, really cold all the time...the tobacco was one of the most profound and
only ways to quickly heat up my body and increase circulation. It also is an aromatase inhibitor as well...someone else had mentioned, so it will help protect against stress.

However, I think what is happening is that the tobacco is a stimulant that disperses stored heat from within the core or the body to the extremeties, resulting in increased feeling of body heat, but at the same time it is very drying (dehydrating) and decreases (burns through) glycogen and fat stores at a quicker rate. About an hour after smoking, this will cause a sense of thirst and likely you are hungry too but cant tell because youre digestive juices have been sapped up due to being dehydrated. So then you must drink some liquid before feeling hungry again...all in all this cycle pans out over time to be antimetabolic I've found out, unless everything you eat is warm, energizing, you are really careful with timings/amounts of liquid...it ends up not being worth it. I still smoke but much less and consider it neutral metabolically.

I could definatley see how smoking could confuse someone into thinking they did or didn't have Hashimoto because of its tendancy to rapidly rise and drop metabolism in a short amount of time.

 

[Mittir]

Charlie
Thank You

Narouz

I did correspond with RP once and did not have any consultation.
I read his website articles and listen to his audio interviews. I think he gives better explanation in those interviews.
He explained estrogen, hashimoto, anti bodies, nicotine in one of his audio interviews.
If i remember correctly ,he mentioned these in Eastwest healing Josh Rubin Interviews on Thyroid and Q and A

http://eastwesthealing.com/podcasts/ray-peat/

Hope it helps

Mittir

 

[narouz]

Interesting interpretation of Mittir's data, pboy!
This is a very fascinating thread.
I've never smoked,
but I have a friend who smokes all the time.
He also will try to have sex or masturbate three times per day.
(Well, he used to before he had to start taking Effexor, MiniPress, and sometimes Clonapin)
Now, you could look at it, perhaps Peatanically,
and say, "well, all that sex energy is a positive sign of health."
On the other hand, Peat says that sexual insatiability can sometimes be caused
by high estrogen.
Maybe my friend smokes constantly--maybe a lot of people smoke constantly--
because they are intuitively trying to ward off the effects of estrogen.

 

[narouz]

Charlie
Thank You

Narouz

I did correspond with RP once and did not have any consultation.
I read his website articles and listen to his audio interviews. I think he gives better explanation in those interviews.
He explained estrogen, hashimoto, anti bodies, nicotine in one of his audio interviews.
If i remember correctly ,he mentioned these in Eastwest healing Josh Rubin Interviews on Thyroid and Q and A

http://eastwesthealing.com/podcasts/ray-peat/

Hope it helps

Mittir

Thanks, Mittir!
I check that out.

 

[jnhermann]

Isadora, thanks for that info!! I read his article. Very interesting. It makes a lot of sense. I cant wait to watch his videos!

 

[Isadora]

Is there a limit to the number of edits we are allowed for each post? I find sometimes I cannot edit mine. I just wanted to add a link to Dr. Haskell's video series.

There is a time limit. I think this forum should stand for freedom and remove all such barriers.

Well, it might be a useful device, after all, j., I have seen forums become unreadable because people got upset after some argument and went in and deleted all of their messages, just to be spiteful. I'm not saying something like this would happen here, but why risk it? :) I'm glad I'm aware of this limitation -- I will no longer count on being able to add stuff or check my grammar after posting.

Isadora
I read your post about cessation of smoking . I was diagnosed with Hashimoto few years after quitting.
I read that smoking masked underlying thyroid problems and it shows up once you quit smoking.
I have been following Ray Peat for last 3 years( strictly last 2 years), diagnosed 6 years ago. According to RP most hashimoto diagnosis are not correct. Increase in antibody often happen due to increase in estrogen. Interestingly Nicotine is a major
anti-estrogen( aromatase inhibitor).

Very interesting, Mittir! Did you gain weight after you quit smoking? I put on 18 pounds in a very short amount of time. Back then, I didn't know I had a gluten issue, so I was eating everything I wanted. These days I kept wondering if smoking was not a very good thing for me, after all! I spent most of my youth at a comfortable 52 kg (for 1.68 that's quite alright, I felt wonderful, had lots of energy) while eating tons of whatever it was that crossed my fancy! OK, so my metabolism was great, but that doesn't explain everything, that stupid tobacco was having some beneficial effects, I tell you! Perhaps my body had learned to live with it (7 cigarettes a day in my early twenties, then one year break, then 13 cigarettes/day, until seven years ago) -- but "we" had reached a good compromise there.

When I quit, I put on those 18 pounds quite fast. I was also craving sweets and ate quite a bit of them. Starches, too -- French baguettes with butter and cheese suddenly became irresistible!

So you're saying my estrogen began wreaking havoc and packing on the pounds, while my thyroid started to fail? That's an unhappy combo! And the fat I put on (because I do believe it was mostly that!) started to create its own estrogen, etc.? Nice!

I did have elevated TSH right after I quit smoking -- too bad I cannot find any labs from when I used to smoke! I felt so good I never saw a doctor and nobody thought they should check it in the routine blood tests.

I read about Dr K's suggestions and many other online health expert's blogs.
I had huge improvement only after i started following Ray Peat. His writing is complicated, not easy to absorb. It is a continuous task. But he has been right about everything. New to this forum and hope to learn more.
Mittir

That is awesome news! We should all listen to how you did it! And true hope for many diagnosed with "autoimmune" diseases!

I don't find Peat's writing all that complicated. It was a challenge when I started out, but now that I got used to the terminology, not anymore. But some here seem to think that I am "cherry picking" it because I don't adhere to some weight gain program that they seem to think is mandatory for a true Peatarian. I don't... I think there are many ways to follow Peat and one should keep an open mind.

What was it like in your experience? What do you call following Ray Peat "strictly"? What was your diet like, did you gain weight on it, how did it happen? Did you supplement with thyroid hormones?

I smoke tobacco, but it is pure organic tobacco out of a glass pipe, lit with a hemp wick that I douse with olive oil (Basically no outside toxins/endocrine disruptors)

First, I thought this was a joke..:)

About an hour after smoking, this will cause a sense of thirst and likely you are hungry too but cant tell because youre digestive juices have been sapped up due to being dehydrated. So then you must drink some liquid before feeling hungry again...

For what it's worth, I was never able to smoke without a cup of liquid near me. I was taking in big amounts of coffee and other sweet drinks during the day and mildly alcoholic stuff at night -- sweet cocktails, especially. I was not big on wine back then, I didn't like the combo tobacco/wine too much. Hmm. Tobacco and sugar -- tobacco was for me the choice vehicle of sugar... If I tried to have now all those sugary drinks, I would swell like a balloon! Wow... The "silent killer" was therefore a silent metabolic crutch?

Isadora, thanks for that info!! I read his article. Very interesting. It makes a lot of sense. I cant wait to watch his videos!

Yeah, and in a Peat way, too! I'm glad you liked it, Jeff! Can't wait to hear what you think of the protocol Dr. Haskell advocates!

 

[charlie]

Well, it might be a useful device, after all, j., I have seen forums become unreadable because people got upset after some argument and went in and deleted all of their messages, just to be spiteful. I'm not saying something like this would happen here, but why risk it? :) I'm glad I'm aware of this limitation -- I will no longer count on being able to add stuff or check my grammar after posting.

That DID happen with a forum member. He got upset and went and deleted ALL of his messages that he ever posted. So now his posts sit there, with no message in them and it looks silly.

That's why I implemented the 30 minute editing rule. I don't see this rule as limiting anyone. If you meant to say something else, you can simply make a new post explaining what you meant to say.

 

[jnhermann]

Isadora:

I watched all the videos and I must say, I'm very excited! The videos are great. He does an amazing job of explaining it A to Z. I ordered some Cynoplus (synthetic T4/T3) and can't wait to get started on it! I found it for half the price of other online mexican pharmacies: http://farmaciadelnino.com/eng/inde...-and-liothyronine-liothyronine-12030mcg-50tab

He is definitely not Peaty in terms of diet and supplements. He is anti-sugar, pro vegetables and animal proteins. He recommends supplementing with an EFA made from several nuts. But whatever....his treatment protocol makes so much sense. He says that TSH can come down to normal in about 6 weeks. Halleluhia! And he is against the natural glandulars because when they are broken down in the liver they release TPO and Thyroglobulin which will just cause us to create more antibodies.

My Cynoplus can't get here soon enough!

 

[Isadora]

I'm so glad you see it that way, Jeff!

I just saw my doctor and am getting new labs -- wrote about it in the "Convincing my doctor" thread... I hadn't had a chance to see the videos again, but if that's the case and he is not using Armour, I'm psyched too, because, most likely, I will be getting synthetic hormones from my doctor as well.

That is, if I'm not cured already, by any chance