Ray Peat Diet Causes Cavities?

[Diokine]

Action by the sympathetic nervous system is required for proper utilization of sugar, and excess consumption of sugar can contribute to sympathetic fatigue - especially in cases with a distressed gut or psychosomatic stress. This sympathetic fatigue can upset the balance of prostaglandins and other inflammatory mediators in mouth, loss of saliva quality, bone and enamel erosion.


Modulation of dental inflammation by the sympathetic nervous system.

Chronic stress enhances progression of periodontitis via α1-adrenergic signaling: a potential target for periodontal disease therapy

Influence of Adrenergic Neuromodulation during Induction of Periodontitis in Rats

 

[jitsmonkey]

That is a misinterpretation on my behalf then. The way you wrote

made it appear to me as if you were giving advice instead of merely stating facts.

it is advice for those who have already made the mistake.
people post various iterations of
'I ATE sugar and my teeth rotted out of my head'
'I TOOK thyroid and my teeth rotted and my anxiety was horrible'
'I READ a study that says aspirin causes increase in Nitric Oxide'

and then you have people come to the forum or elsewhere looking for help
and they then become erroneously afraid of these substances when in fact its just operator error most of the time
so my comments were directed at that side of the equation I apologize if that was unclear.

People should NOT be using these substances and having negative effects.
Yes some outliers may not be able to use them due to various personal quirks
but most should be able to use them without losing their teeth or some other nefarious outcome
they just need to use them intelligently with respect for the substance vs using them recklessly without understanding and then blaming the substance instead of their own ignorance and recklessness.

 

[jitsmonkey]

in a

Action by the sympathetic nervous system is required for proper utilization of sugar, and excess consumption of sugar can contribute to sympathetic fatigue - especially in cases with a distressed gut or psychosomatic stress. This sympathetic fatigue can upset the balance of prostaglandins and other inflammatory mediators in mouth, loss of saliva quality, bone and enamel erosion.


Modulation of dental inflammation by the sympathetic nervous system.

Chronic stress enhances progression of periodontitis via α1-adrenergic signaling: a potential target for periodontal disease therapy

Influence of Adrenergic Neuromodulation during Induction of Periodontitis in Rats

In a vacuum this MAY be true, however
I nor any of the other humans I know live in a vacuum
deprived of the appropriate nutrients, tools, adaptive response, etc... as the cited rats were.
These studies are ridiculous. They're excellent for making a point in a debate where intelligence and context are ignored but
on this rock I live on hurtling through space.... rubbish.

Nobody is sitting around eating nothing but sugar, deprived of the rest of the requirements of a healthy life.... if there is anyone on this forum doing that
then I apologize... its clear the sugar is what's rotting their and the rats teeth.

Once again context is king.
Sugar isn't rotting those rat teeth nor creating chronic stress
Its a LACK of raw materials a la fuel, fat soluble vitamins, micro nutrients, macro nutrients, interesting lives, light, etc....

 

[jitsmonkey]

in a


In a vacuum this MAY be true, however
I nor any of the other humans I know live in a vacuum
deprived of the appropriate nutrients, tools, adaptive response, etc... as the cited rats were.
These studies are ridiculous. They're excellent for making a point in a debate where intelligence and context are ignored but
on this rock I live on hurtling through space.... rubbish.

Nobody is sitting around eating nothing but sugar, deprived of the rest of the requirements of a healthy life.... if there is anyone on this forum doing that
then I apologize... its clear the sugar is what's rotting their and the rats teeth.

Once again context is king.
Sugar isn't rotting those rat teeth nor creating chronic stress
LACK of raw materials a la fuel, fat soluble vitamins, micro nutrients, macro nutrients, interesting lives, light, etc....

(fyi this planet we live in is loaded with "studies" that document things like sugar rots teeth, thyroid supp increases adrenaline, aspirin increases Nitric Oxide and Drills cause damage to eyes.... sometimes studies are simply wrong because the premise they started with was wrong.)

 

[nbznj]

my diet now that I'm trying to Peat more and more taking into account my huge caloric needs - not willing to have 300g of sugar a day nor 3g of Calcium: quart of OJ and quart of 2% goat milk a day, 2 whole skinless chickens per week, saturated fats, starches trying to keep fats below 80g with 4000kcal a day. That's a lot of glucose. Supplements are vitamins ADEK and ZMA.

Teeth never been cleaner. Floss thoroughly, use a medium brush, go quarterly or twice a year.

Anecdotally my GF could be a long term peatarian minus the dairy. Stopped the estrogen BC pill insanity right around the 2 week mark lol. Anyways. Lots of fruits and more greens than I do, very low fat, one whole chicken a week plus she makes broth out of it, been eating this way for a decade which is kinda unreal when you think of what most late teenagers do... perfect teeth too.

If I/we have kids they won't have cavities.

 

[walker_in_aus]

I should mention that the weird fuzzy tooth feeling I used to get from soft drinks is gone. I drink a few cokes a week and my teeth feel smooth still. I haven't had a cavity for nearly two years. Beofre that, the average was four a year... I kept doing what the dentist told me and NOT EATING SUGAR haha

 

[Peater Piper]

^^^^this is 100%
Sugar does NOT cause teeth to decay
No different than Aspirin does not cause Nitric Oxide increase and Thyroid Supps don't cause adrenaline increase.
In the absence of the necessary raw materials...
increasing metabolism EXPOSES the shortfall of raw materials on board.
Fill the short comings... no problem.

I'm skeptical of this. I think there's many people that have experienced problems with sugar/aspirin/thyroid while consuming ample amounts of calories and micronutrients (in fact, 100x what's even possible through diet for certain nutrients, thanks to supplementation). It seems the majority of people stating their teeth are great on a high sugar diet are supplementing at a high rate, especially the fat solubles. I'd like to hear how many people are doing well with no supplements (I know there's a few, but I suspect they're the minority). If diet is appropriate, supplements shouldn't really be necessary, especially at such obscene doses.

 

[jitsmonkey]

I'm skeptical of this. I think there's many people that have experienced problems with sugar/aspirin/thyroid while consuming ample amounts of calories and micronutrients (in fact, 100x what's even possible through diet for certain nutrients, thanks to supplementation). It seems the majority of people stating their teeth are great on a high sugar diet are supplementing at a high rate, especially the fat solubles. I'd like to hear how many people are doing well with no supplements (I know there's a few, but I suspect they're the minority). If diet is appropriate, supplements shouldn't really be necessary, especially at such obscene doses.

"I think there's many people that have experienced problems with sugar/aspirin/thyroid while consuming ample amounts of calories and micronutrients"

-----how could you possibly know this? Because someone on a forum claims that they get enough calories and micronutrients? Please. If I had a nickel for everytime I've personally "thought" I got enough of this or that but upon checking didn't. People say a lot of things.... many of them wrong.

You should question your narratives and assumptions that are based on nothing other than the story you made up in your head. "If diet is appropriate, supplements shouldn't really be necessary, especially at such obscene doses." is hardly accurate for the culture, world, food supply, stressors, etc... we are exposed to on a daily basis.

You being "skeptical" doesn't make reality any different.
If you don't want to eat sugar don't
If you don't want to supplement don't
If I was a betting man there's a nature fallacy lurking in those assumptions
but I'm not a betting man so you're in luck.

 

[Peater Piper]

If I was rude I'd say this
"If diet is appropriate, supplements shouldn't really be necessary, especially at such obscene doses."
is idiotic.

since I'm not I'll just say you should question your narratives and assumptions based on nothing other than the story you made up in your head. (yes I know, you didn't make it up its all those people having trouble with those things. I know its not you, its me. Its ok I'm ok with that.)
You being "skeptical" doesn't make reality any different.
If you don't want to eat sugar don't
If you don't want to supplement don't
If I was a betting man there's a nature fallacy lurking in those assumptions
but I'm not a betting man so you're in luck.

Care to elaborate why it's idiotic to suggest a good diet shouldn't require massive doses of supplements?

I'm also not sure why you're slamming me for making assumptions, when you assumed nearly everyone that experienced problems with the substances you listed was doing something wrong. Will sugar lead everyone to have tooth decay? I never said such a thing, what I did say is I'd like to see more stories from people that are eating such a diet without a load of supplements. Vitamin K2 in particular could cover up a lot of problems. You might as well say PUFA is fine, it's user error not getting adequate amounts of Vitamin E with it, which is of course absurd.

 

[Peater Piper]

You being "skeptical" doesn't make reality any different.

By the way, you're right about this, which is why I said skeptical, because I don't have the truth, and neither do you, unless you've managed to poll every single person that's tested those substances with disappointing results.

 

[jitsmonkey]

"good diet" what's that?
why in a modern world full of pollution, shitty food supply, corrupt medical science, etc.... would a "good diet" supplant the need for supplements.
You're having a discussion about narrative.
I'm simply saying that these substances can readily be used without issue
if they are done with patience and the person using them is informed about what's required to use them
versus blaming the substances when they are inappropriately applied.
I do not care if ANYONE uses them, that's up to each individual
You are correct I do not know anything other than we are on a rock hurtling through space at high speed.
I didn't mean to imply otherwise.
Your corollary of PUFA and E doesn't apply simply because PUFA as is documented ad nauseum is a toxic substance that is NOT rendered harmless by E just somewhat mitigated. The other substances mentioned when in the presence of their needed raw materials cause no harm of any kind.
Again this is all EASILY tested there isn't even a need to argue or debate.
put it to the test.
and if what I'm saying is wrong its easily fixed provided you don't just ignore the experiment outcome.
Simple.
No arguing or debating necessary.
YOu are 100% right I don't know anything for certain.

From experience I CAN speak for myself, my family and maybe a dozen close friends who for certain can vouch for what I'm saying
I'm also confident that intelligent investigation and experimentation would be in my favor as well.
I wish you the best of luck

 

[sladerunner69]

Woot! Just had my first dental exam since full-on Peating. Got a perfect score. Cleaning was a snap. No bleeding; no tender areas. Hygienist and Dentist said no inflammation and gums looked wonderful. She said she saw no reason to update my x-rays. Phew. Dentist said, "Now, you're a vegan right?" I said, "uh, no?" She said, "But you won't touch sugar or dairy though right?" ................

Fantastic! happy for you. I had a cavity last time I visited the dentist though. What is your dental hygiene regimen? Brushing and flossing daily?

 

[tomisonbottom]

I had 6 cavities at the age of 18, with a mouth full of pain. I never went back to the dentist after they told me what was up. 7 years later, no pain, no visible cavities, and my teeth feel rock hard. My diet has been 12-16 cups of 1% and skim milk, 6-16 cups of OJ, Pineapple juice, gelatin, carrots, coffee, table sugar, sometimes liver and hydrogenated coconut oil. I drink acidic things through a straw, and rinse with baking soda regularly, after eating. I brush maybe 2-4 times per week, sometimes with baking soda and coconut oil, sometimes just water. Good thyroid function is critical, because it controls the quality of your saliva. Vitamin K2, D, high calcium to phosphorus, magnesium, low, to no phytic acid ingestion, and sugar over starch ( because sucrose is superior to starch in regards to bone formation ) are all important, IMO

Did you have enamel erosion on the surface of your teeth at all? If so, did that restore too?

 

[Luann]

"I drink acidic things through a straw, and rinse with baking soda regularly, after eating." @tca300

My teeth have worsened recently. I can't eat much at a sitting and so I snack a lot, which affects my teeth. Going to do baking soda rinses from now on.

 

[tca300]

"I drink acidic things through a straw, and rinse with baking soda regularly, after eating." @tca300

My teeth have worsened recently. I can't eat much at a sitting and so I snack a lot, which affects my teeth. Going to do baking soda rinses from now on.

Using pure xylitol as a mouth rinse might be helpful too.

 

[Waremu]

I got cavities, but it wasn’t because I ate Peat type foods, but because I neglected my teeth/dental health. I think I have seen too many people not brush their teeth and wash their mouths out and floss after every meal blame their cavity problem on Peating. Not all those who Peat and get cavities, but many have. I have asked many who have said they got cavities while Peating and in all but one case they did not brush their teeth they said when I asked them. That’s just asking for issues in my opinion.

 

[Runenight201]

I got cavities, but it wasn’t because I ate Peat type foods, but because I neglected my teeth/dental health. I think I have seen too many people not brush their teeth and wash their mouths out and floss after every meal blame their cavity problem on Peating. Not all those who Peat and get cavities, but many have. I have asked many who have said they got cavities while Peating and in all but one case they did not brush their teeth they said when I asked them. That’s just asking for issues in my opinion.

How would you explain Weston’s Price research into primitive tribes and their lack of cavities without proper dental care?

I think the only foods that don’t cause tooth problems are veggies, dairy, and eggs. Even fruit will cause tooth sensitivity if I overdo it, as I began finding out at the end of my 24 hr fruit and veggie fast. Meat is far too high in phosphorous, and that causes problems, same with grains. It’s either the phosphorus, texture, or acidity of the food, I’m not one hundred percent sure what it is, but something about starch, fruit, and meat leads to carries if one doesn’t take precautions against them.

 

[Waremu]

How would you explain Weston’s Price research into primitive tribes and their lack of cavities without proper dental care?

I think the only foods that don’t cause tooth problems are veggies, dairy, and eggs. Even fruit will cause tooth sensitivity if I overdo it, as I began finding out at the end of my 24 hr fruit and veggie fast. Meat is far too high in phosphorous, and that causes problems, same with grains. It’s either the phosphorus, texture, or acidity of the food, I’m not one hundred percent sure what it is, but something about starch, fruit, and meat leads to carries if one doesn’t take precautions against them.

A lot of those cultures had nutritionally sense diets that helped, but some of them actually did clean their teeth with old methods. Some tribes for example would rub certain herbs or plants on their gums and teeth, and many of these plants had antibacterial properties. There are some tribes that would clean their teeth with twigs. Some of these twigs are really strong too. For example, the Arab Bedouin tribes would clean their teeth with twigs from the arak tree, which contains antiseptic properties.

I think this in conjunction to the nutrient dense diets that many of these tribes had can help explain why many didn’t have huge issues with gum disease or cavities.

But whatever the exact cause for cavities is, whether it is poor diet or something else, there is no doubt that when one is more prone to getting cavities, they dramatically increase their chances of getting cavities by not brushing and flossing regularly. That’s the issue I see with a lot of people who do 80/10/10 diets or who follow Peat. I don’t think there is one single cause, but when ones health is already putting them in a state to get cavities, brushing and flossing can be an important defense and those who decide not to are just increasing the likelihood of getting them, in my opinion, even though they may already be set up to get cavities because of poor thyroid health, or whatever/etc.

But I think the mainstream view on cavities is correct —- I just don’t think that’s the only view or that’s there is more to the story, like thyroid playing role and PTH and calcium to phosphorus ratio, and fat soluble vitamins, etc.

 

[Apple]

A lot of those cultures had nutritionally sense diets that helped, but some of them actually did clean their teeth with old methods. Some tribes for example would rub certain herbs or plants on their gums and teeth, and many of these plants had antibacterial properties. There are some tribes that would clean their teeth with twigs. Some of these twigs are really strong too. For example, the Arab Bedouin tribes would clean their teeth with twigs from the arak tree, which contains antiseptic properties.

I think this in conjunction to the nutrient dense diets that many of these tribes had can help explain why many didn’t have huge issues with gum disease or cavities.

But whatever the exact cause for cavities is, whether it is poor diet or something else, there is no doubt that when one is more prone to getting cavities, they dramatically increase their chances of getting cavities by not brushing and flossing regularly. That’s the issue I see with a lot of people who do 80/10/10 diets or who follow Peat. I don’t think there is one single cause, but when ones health is already putting them in a state to get cavities, brushing and flossing can be an important defense and those who decide not to are just increasing the likelihood of getting them, in my opinion, even though they may already be set up to get cavities because of poor thyroid health, or whatever/etc.

But I think the mainstream view on cavities is correct —- I just don’t think that’s the only view or that’s there is more to the story, like thyroid playing role and PTH and calcium to phosphorus ratio, and fat soluble vitamins, etc.

Teeth health maybe related to gut bacteria or just good genetics.
I know people in there 40- 50 yo who eat just like anyone else, bread, buns, sweets, any kind of junk food and have no cavities while brushing teeth once a day with a common tooth paste, tooth brush, fluoridated tap water (with no flossing), fully vaccinated ... no dental issues whatsoever.

While others bend over backwards to preserve their teeth and nothing works.

 

[Rinse & rePeat]

I've been doing the standard high sugar Ray Peat diet (including soda and candy from time to time semi-often) for about 10 months now. Yesterday I had a checkup, and the dentist said I have 2 cavities. During this time I've also stopped brushing with fluoride and have been brushing with coconut oil and also rinsing with coconut oil.

For now I'll probably have to get fillings. I think I'm going to start chewing xylitol gum between meals and/or rinse with coconut oil between meals and snacks .

Anyone have the same problem? Or, does anyone not have this problem despite eating a lot of sugary Ray Peat inspired foods and drinks and eating often throughout the day?

Ray Peat never said to eat a lot of white sugar and candy. He said to balance proteins with a sugar source, preferably good ripe fruit being the best choice, or honey, and white sugar being ok if there aren’t better choices. This is why people are not successful on a Ray Peat diet, they just eat too many EMPTY calories from white sugar and pair it wrong, with nothing or with fats. I eat a spoonful of honey at bedtime AFTER I brush my teeth to kill bacteria in my mouth during the night.