Protein Vs Keto Acids

[X3CyO]

I cant find any information on the amounts of keto acids found in food, but my personal studies have lead me to believe that humans prefer keto acids as a protein source with a minor amount of actual proteins being used.

All foods contain inflammitory amino acids except for gelatin, and fruit.

After attempting to find the "best protein powder", theres always something. Too much glutamaic acid, too much methionine, too much arginine, etc etc etc.

If one were to hypothetically run on keto acids from foods instead, and ketos are used to maintain and recycle proteins up to ideally 100%, and unneeded proteins are shedded... then whats left is the perfect ratio of amino acids in the body, and if aminos for some reason need to be replaced, then the small amounts from food will fix the issue.

Just trying to find more info on powders and keto acids.

 

[tyw]

No.

Ketoacids do not even have nitrogen in them, and they do not help "recycle proteins" (use of alpha-ketoglutarate in transmination does nothing to nitrogen balance).

There can be used as an energetic substrate, and any study of using these will show no improvement to net nitrogen balance, with symptoms of loss of structural muscle protein if not enough actual amino acids are supplied.

Even in cases of Renal failure, these have mixed results, which most studies being like this: Comparison of the effects of keto acid analogues and essential amino acids on nitrogen homeostasis in uremic patients on moderately protein-restricted diets.

There was no improvement of renal function with keto acids. Also, no carry-over effects were seen after keto acid treatment. It is concluded that any beneficial effects of keto acids in patients with chronic renal failure are only likely to occur in those taking a diet of less than 30 g protein daily.​

The "less than 30g protein daily" refers to the potential for keto acids to provide energy (likely for the liver) when protein intake is very low.

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Get your protein from whole food. Not too much, 1g protein per KG body a day is good enough, with little side effects. Don't worry about keto acids , and let the body decide what to do with whole food protein.

Sidenote: I actually like anything in the "Color Atlas" or "Pocket Atlast" series of books, just to give a visual representation of all the known pathways in the body. Particular to this topic, "Color Atlas of Biochemistry" is nice.

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[X3CyO]

I swear ive heard Peat advocating keto acids used in recycling nitrogen within the body. Just gonna have to keep researching then.

 

[tara]

I swear ive heard Peat advocating keto acids used in recycling nitrogen within the body.

I thought so too.

But I think that just reduces the need for whole protein somewhat, can't fully replace protein. AIUI, the keto acids can pick up some of the nitrogen that's due to be excreted from the breakdown of old proteins, and join up with it to form new amino acids. You're always going to be losing some of the nitrogen though, and need some replacement in suitable form.

The range of different keto acids would presumably be important just as the range of essential amino acids are.

 

[X3CyO]

I thought so too.

But I think that just reduces the need for whole protein somewhat, can't fully replace protein.

The range of different keto acids would presumably be important just as the range of essential amino acids are.

I agree. My hypothesis is just that mixing protein and keto acids would allow the body to maintain a better balance of anti inflammatory with inflammatory proteins.

All evidence points towards fruit as being an ideal food; my thoughts are just as to how we can streamline this as to fit a normal eating schedule instead of eating all day, and looking like a twig.

 

[tara]

All evidence points towards fruit as being an ideal food; my thoughts are just as to how we can streamline this as to fit a normal eating schedule instead of eating all day, and looking like a twig.

Might be why humans took to using fire and boiling starches.

 

[tca300]

I've tried to get my protein from potatoes, and even juicing massive quantities of them for the keto acids. As a person who strength trains several times per week, I've found over and over again that they ( keto acids ) cannot maintain and or support the building of lean tissue. For myself personally, at least.

 

[paymanz]

Role of branched-chain ketoacids in protein metabolism


@tyw some some references are agree with what ray peat says about ketos .

One of them I posted, or I miss something?

Also a lot of people live on potato's without any problem.

 

[X3CyO]

Another question ive had is regarding if there is a plant protein source that fits peats word on ideal amino acid profile; low in methionine, cyestine, histidine, tryptophan, glutamaic acid and high in glycine, tyrosine, phenylalanine and bcaas.

After buying pea protein a while back... ive realized i made a big mistakes as its glutamaic acid is higher than any other amino.

If theres no source ill just have to go back to drinking skim milk with gelatin.. most commercial milk in hawaii has high pufa fyi for visitors unless you can find raw milk.

 

[tyw]

Role of branched-chain ketoacids in protein metabolism


@tyw some some references are agree with what ray peat says about ketos .

One of them I posted, or I miss something?

Also a lot of people live on potato's without any problem.

All the mechanisms described in the article refer to contexts where net Amino Acid supply is already limited. The article fully admits that ketoacids contain no nitrogen, and may only serve to help processing of amino acids (eg: transamination) when incoming amino acid supply cannot meet the needs of the body.

It is incorrect to call ketoacids "equivalent to protein", since they will never be able to provide any of the actual nitrogen required to form functional proteins.

The article is correct, that there are benefits to ketoacids, BOTH when some amino acids are supplied, but when there are limitations to providing adequate raw amino acids due to pre-existing conditions (eg: renal failure, burn injury, or other post-operative state, where amino acid metabolism is compromised). This is not the context that most people face.

Potatoes contain some actual amino acids. Not very many though -- 1kg of raw potatoes will net you maybe 20g of actual nitrogen-containing alpha amino acids. There hasn't been many cases at all of people who subsist entirely on potatoes without any issues. Still, if you are not an active individual, this may be enough, and in this context of low protein intake, there may be benefits to keto acids. This is not optimal once activity levels start to increase, and protein requirements increase proportionately.

I agree with the opinions of @tara and @tca300 in this regard -- adequate amino acids must be supplied regardless. Keto acids may help with reducing the threshold that is considered adequate, but even this is speculative, given that all studies are done under stressed conditions -- ie: the benefits to normal healthy humans (not mice) remains to be seen.

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[paymanz]

Most of plant proteins are worst than animal proteins.

 

[paymanz]

@tyw what ray says is that those ketos attach to circulating nitrogen or ammonia to form a actual amino.sorry I don't remember exact thing.

 

[tyw]

@tyw what ray says is that those ketos attach to circulating nitrogen or ammonia to form a actual amino.sorry I don't remember exact thing.

Correct, but right from the article (section "Mechanisms of Protein Sparing"):

It has long been evident that substitution of the minimum daily requirements of essential amino acids by their ketoanalogues could reduce minimal N requirements, provided that nonessential N were not limiting.

However, the amount of N so spared cannot exceed the N required to convert these analogues to amino acids. Since two of the essential amino acids (lysine and threonine) cannot be replaced by ketoanalogues [16, 17], and two others (histidine and tryptophan) are not readily available as analogues, the amount of N so spared will not exceed the N content of the minimum daily requirement of BCAA plus phenylalanine plus methionine, namely, about 0.5 g.

This minor degree of N-sparing is not, strictly speaking, a form of protein sparing, because it does not involve any change in protein synthesis or breakdown.​

There are other mechanisms of protein sparing, all of which I agree with, and all of which are only significant when incoming amino acid supply is already limited.

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[paymanz]

Correct, but right from the article (section "Mechanisms of Protein Sparing"):

It has long been evident that substitution of the minimum daily requirements of essential amino acids by their ketoanalogues could reduce minimal N requirements, provided that nonessential N were not limiting.

However, the amount of N so spared cannot exceed the N required to convert these analogues to amino acids. Since two of the essential amino acids (lysine and threonine) cannot be replaced by ketoanalogues [16, 17], and two others (histidine and tryptophan) are not readily available as analogues, the amount of N so spared will not exceed the N content of the minimum daily requirement of BCAA plus phenylalanine plus methionine, namely, about 0.5 g.

This minor degree of N-sparing is not, strictly speaking, a form of protein sparing, because it does not involve any change in protein synthesis or breakdown.​

There are other mechanisms of protein sparing, all of which I agree with, and all of which are only significant when incoming amino acid supply is already limited.

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I got it,so ketosis cannot be sole protein source.

So what are amino acid profile that can be made from ketos?

 

[X3CyO]

Ohhhh. So keto acids basically can recycle equal amounts of aminos as those ingested but no more.

So hypothetically; 50G protein + Equal amounts in keto acids= 100G Protein.

Or 2G protein in fruit would be 4G including keto acids.

 

[lexis]

Does Buteyko breathing(or more CO2) reduce the need for high protein ?I thought they mentioned something like that.

Reduce Bodybuilding Risks: More Muscles with Less Diet Protein

 

[tara]

they ( keto acids ) cannot maintain and or support the building of lean tissue.

Makes sense that you can't rely on recycling when you are building up more lean tissue.

 

[Travis]

I read a few old quantitative studies on keto-acids; one for bananas and one for strawberry leaves, potatoes, and pea sprouts. I remember them finding keto-acids, but I cant quite recall exactly how much.

I think that it's theoretically possible that they could increase the effective protein content of foods. Since we cannot store protein, keto-acids could help create an amino acid that we need at the expense of one we don't; through transamination. For example:

α-ketoglutarate + aspartic acid → α-oxaloacetate + glutamic acid

A deficiency of glutamic acid could theoretically be reconciled by an excess of aspartic acid in the presence of α-ketoglutarate and aminotransferase . Or...

α-ketoglutarate + NH₂⁻ → glutamic acid + OH⁻

...a junk amine could be added to a keto-acid making an amino acid.

 

[Travis]

Estimation of a-Keto Acids in Plant Tissue: a Critical Study of Various Methods of Extraction as Applied to Strawberry Leaves, Washed Potato Slices and Peas
F. A. ISHERWOOD Low Temperature Station for Research in Biochemistry and Biophysics, University of Cambridge
C. A. NIAVIS Botany School, University of Cambridge

These are some hard-core chemists using rigorous techniques for 1956. There is alot of variation in the data because they used cold and warm extraction methods. They found that when the plant sample is not sufficiently frozen during the extraction procedure, enzymes are mobilized which destroy keto-acids. The most accurate keto-acid determinations were carried out by flash-freezing the plants in -70⁰C methanol. The highest concentrations were found in strawberry leaves at 27,920 μg/100g, which works out to .02792 g/100g.

Spinach leaves have 2.9 g/100g protein, and strawberry leaves have .02792 g/100g keto-acids. This is very nearly one percent of the protein content and is precisely .96%.

If we take these values as being representative of leaves in general, keto-acids only increase your protein content by ~1% in this case.

If you look at Table 7, potatoes have even less than this.

But they only measured three keto-acids out of potentially ~20 that could become structural amino acids. The figure could be higher.

Until I find more numbers, I am going to assume that they exist in negligible amounts in foods.

27,920 μg/10²g = Summation of Pyruvic, α-oxoglutaric, oxaloacetic [Table 7]

 

[Philomath]

Here are some interesting studies on cultures that ate mostly, or ONLY potatoes. Some studies are old and some more current. They also look at glucose, cholesterol and nitrogen levels.

Whole Health Source: Potatoes and Human Health, Part III

 

[Wagner83]

I've tried to get my protein from potatoes, and even juicing massive quantities of them for the keto acids. As a person who strength trains several times per week, I've found over and over again that they ( keto acids ) cannot maintain and or support the building of lean tissue. For myself personally, at least.

Did you try to eat them steamed/boiled ? Do you have any idea how much proteins the potatoes had per kg (based on your usual needs, muscles and how you felt)?

Potatoes contain some actual amino acids. Not very many though -- 1kg of raw potatoes will net you maybe 20g of actual nitrogen-containing alpha amino acids. There hasn't been many cases at all of people who subsist entirely on potatoes without any issues. Still, if you are not an active individual, this may be enough, and in this context of low protein intake, there may be benefits to keto acids. This is not optimal once activity levels start to increase, and protein requirements increase proportionately.

Does it mean in your opinion the kg of potatoes would yield the equivalent of 20 g of high quality proteins (meat, fish...)? I'm trying to get an idea on how much proteins I get in my meals and how to reduce animals sources proteins.