Thoughts on Casein protein vs cheese or milk?

Samin2020

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Dec 14, 2020
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Hello, I am new here.

I had a question after reading though some of what Ray has been talking about.

I can’t seem to find an answer.

What I read is essentially muscle meat is an inappropriate source of nutrition for adults due to high levels of cysteine, tryptophan and methionine.

In addition to high PUFA (e.g. chicken) and iron (e.g. lean beef) and phosphate this would contribute to hypothyroidism via a range of mechanisms on cellular respiration.

Milk, is seen as a more better protein option owing to the high calcium to phosphate ratio and lower PUFA.

However, the whey portion of milk is insulinogenic and also high in anti-metabolic amino acids.

An adult, therefore would be better suited towards cheese which has the whey removed. The casein of cheese binds tryptophan and has a more ‘pro metabolic’ amino acid profile.

The ‘problem’ is the fat content of cheese, albeit mainly saturated and MUFA - but still high in fat nonetheless.

This would interfere with the randle cycle for example when consumed with lots of tropical fruit (e.g. watermelon).

In any case - dairy is heavily promoted in the Ray Peat ‘circles’ but those inherent problems with milk and cheese are something that concern me.

On the other hand, miceller casein protein - preferably cold pressed and grass fed I would assume (as Peat is concerned with health effects of protein powder) is effectively cheese void of its fat.

That would appear to me to present the ‘ideal’ protein - free of fat and whey.

Obviously a glass of casein and water might taste really bad and warrant some sugar or fruit combination - but wouldn’t it just be preferable from a health context to simply forgo the cheese and milk, and become a casein protein consumer?

And then, further to that, augment the diet with eggs, liver, oysters and gelationous rich food?

In any case, I’m currently ‘milking’ at 1-2L a day using non homogenised milk with cream which has seemed to have raised my waking temperature and general health - thus I’m happy with the results however I thought it might still be bad to be consuming whey inadvertently for long term health.

Any thoughts on this idea of simply using casein?
 

Jbird10

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Mar 5, 2018
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Interesting discussion thanks for posting this issue.

I thought the gelatin was suppose to offset some of the tryptophan issue with milk, but haven't considered the whey aspect.

Have you found any casein brand that is made in a safe way? Does the powder form, all kinds, a denatured protein form damaged by the heat?

Although, Peat has endorsed I believe non-fat milk powder for pancakes??? Whey would still be a part of this right.
 

dukesbobby777

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Sep 22, 2020
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You’ve brought up a lot of the issues that many Peaters debate with themselves in terms of trying to work out something that works for them (if they are bothered by consuming too much cooked meat, or too much fatty cheese). The casein protein powder idea is good if you can find a good source. Throw in gelatin (well, I use hydrolysed collagen), and it should work out well (if you tolerate it). Don’t just add some fruit. Really ‘juice it up’. Get a decent blender and make smoothies. Adding eggs, liver and oysters would complement it well. Just don’t forget salt as well. Too much fruit from smoothies was way too cooling on my body when I dived into it a while back.

The protein foods also generate a lot of ammonia, especially the older you get. Making protein powders more appealing from that aspect. Not to mention that cooked meats and cheeses are high in AGEs.

Milk has quite high tryptophan, but Peat says it isn’t a problem with its high calcium content helping to metabolise it into niacin. I’ve always wondered though, what happens if your body is already replete in niacin? Would the body chose not to turn it into niacin? He’s never clarified that part for me. Milk, after all, is a food for calves (hence the high tryptophan content for their growth).

I think beef is actually quite low tryptophan btw.
 

gaze

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I think this is the best way to go about it:

Milk cheese and egg daily (if you can handle all of them)

monday: beef
tuesday: oyster
wednesday: ox tail
thursday: beef
friday: shrimp or crab

basically switch around the high phosphate proteins per day, but keep the essentials in milk cheese and eggs daily. i think following something like this gives a good amino acid variety and all the essential nutrients. when ray talks about the downsides of meats, he's refereeing to it as the main source of protein. but a couple servings per week is beneficial, given that beef has a lot of b3, b6, selenium, zinc, all which help to counter balance the phosphate and iron. Those minerals are much more important than using casein powder to avoid phosphate, so long as you drink a good amount of milk as well. i wouldn't get too caught up in the randle cycle, just try to keep your meals reasonable (not too much of anything, with all the macros present) and you should be good
 
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rzero

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I think this is the best way to go about it:

Milk cheese and egg daily (if you can handle all of them)

monday: beef
tuesday: oyster
wednesday: ox tail
thursday: beef
friday: shrimp or crab

basically switch around the high phosphate proteins per day, but keep the essentials in milk cheese and eggs daily. i think following something like this gives a good amino acid variety and all the essential nutrients. when ray talks about the downsides of meats, he's refereeing to it as the main source of protein. but a couple servings per week is beneficial, given that beef has a lot of b3, b6, selenium, zinc, all which help to counter balance the phosphate and iron. Those minerals are much more important than using casein powder to avoid phosphate, so long as you drink a good amount of milk as well. i wouldn't get too caught up in the randle cycle, just try to keep your meals reasonable (not too much of anything, with all the macros present) and you should be good
I posted this question on another thread as well. I should probably look it up, but I'm not remembering what eggs have that diary doesn't have. Biotin? Slightly more absorbable protein?
 

gaze

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I posted this question on another thread as well. I should probably look it up, but I'm not remembering what eggs have that diary doesn't have. Biotin? Slightly more absorbable protein?
I remember your question. I think calorie for calorie, they're a little bit more nutritious than milk in the B vitamins. And they have things like choline, vitamin E, selenium in much higher amounts. However, milk and shellfish/beef a couple times a week (along with OJ) can probably provide everything quite easily. Im personally not that big of a fan of eggs, mainly because of the quality of American eggs like in the other thread, but if someone can digest them fine its still probably a net positive to eat them, and they can provide a tasty breakfast which is easy to salt alot.
 
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rzero

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I remember your question. I think calorie for calorie, they're a little bit more nutritious than milk in the B vitamins. And they have things like choline, vitamin E, selenium in much higher amounts. However, milk and shellfish/beef a couple times a week can probably provide everything quite easily. Im personally not that big of a fan of eggs, mainly because of the quality of American eggs like in the other thread, but if someone can digest them fine its still probably a net positive to eat them, and they can provide a tasty breakfast which is easy to salt alot.
Thank you. Eggs have always sat heavily in my stomach. Maybe it's the form of protein. And they do have a certain amount of PUFA. I'm doing well on skim milk and instant skim milk powder right now for protein. I may just not bother with eggs for now. I am keeping fat low and feeling pretty decent.

Eggs are considered "tamasic" (entropic) in Indian Ayurveda for what it's worth.
 

gaze

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Thank you. Eggs have always sat heavily in my stomach. Maybe it's the form of protein. And they do have a certain amount of PUFA. I'm doing well on skim milk and instant skim milk powder right now for protein. I may just not bother with eggs for now. I am keeping fat low and feeling pretty decent.
Yea i'm the same way, I get a bit of stomach cramps from them. I suspect it has something to do with vaccines being produced using eggs, and I've been vaccinated quite a few times in my life, although i wont be able to prove it. It could also be the soy used to make many American eggs. Either way I feel fine too using milk, cheese, oysters, crab, shrimp, beef as my protein.
 
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