Probiotics Are Dangerous, Should Be Regulated As Drugs

[Texon]

I do know the bacteria that had been used to synthesize tryptophan—genetically engineered for greater output—also had produced novel indole metabolites. However: the concentrations were quite very low if I remember correctly, and there's also reason to suppose plain tryptophan could do this. Individuals will naturally convert tryptophan into serotonin, tryptophol, 5-hydroxytryptophol, and 5-hydroxyindoleacetic acid at different rates than others. The relative amounts of each species ultimately created depends on niacin intake, cortisol concentrations, γ-interferon titer, muscle catabolism, ethanol intake, and liver expression of such enzymes as: alcohol dehydrogenase, tryptophan 2,3-dioxygenase, and monoamine oxidase. Cytokine profiles and presence of other plasma chemotactic factors could help determine eventual eosinophil counts, and even something as simple as a cyclooxygenase inhibitor can increase leukotriene B₄ by sparing arachidonic acid (20∶4ω−6). Fatty acid ratios could also play a part: This is because leukotriene B₅—made from eicosapentaenoic acid (20∶5ω−3)—is about 5,000 × less potent than leukotriene B₄ while the Mead acid (20∶3ω−9) product, leukotriene B₃, is comparatively-ineffectual by roughly fivefold. I believe biology is largely deterministic, should we ever know enough, but since there exists so many biochemical factors the rare conditions can almost appear to strike at random. I believe that you've found a good forum, and this because Ray Peat emphasizes the avoidance of linoleic acid (18∶2ω−6)—the precursor for arachidonic acid. However: I would avoid cyclooxygenase inhibitors because they increase leukotriene B₄, another powerful chemotactic for for eosinophils (Nagy, 1982). Baicalein is the classic lipoxygenase inhibitor, and it also has been shown to reduce eosinophil and eotaxin concentrations (He, 2011).

@Regina Travis this is very interesting in that I tried a DIM supplement one time and thought I had poisoned myself. So that was that as they say. Plus I only recently discovered that b6 vitamin can help with both excess glutamate metabolism and the bad side of tryptophan metabolism i.e. quinolinic acid both of which I deal with. This has been a long process of discovery that I think would have taken a very rare doctor to diagnose.

 

[Bart1]

Do you feel this is as good an option as the phage products that do not have the probiotics? Can't remember the full name, Arthur something, lol .
I only ask that since the topic is about probiotics being a possible problem, and thought wouldn't it then be better to just use the phages? Or is it that probiotics are not a problem for all people and just some, like SIBO people? I am totally on the fence about probiotics, since I never notice anything when I use them good or bad, with one exception, I used those soil based probiotics twice over the years, and I now know why they call them 'soil' based, since they soiled my drawers, lol. I am very reluctant to ever use them again.

I'm using the Arthur Andrew product now for more than a week. I had really a lot of bloating. The first days it did seem to reduce it a bit, but after a couple of days I still have bloating issues. Will go through the whole bottle, but for now I can say it did not do much for me yet. I do still eat starch, which sometimes cause bloating to rise..

 

[Owen B]

As to the debate over "good" bacteria introduced in the small intestine vs. in the gut, here's a link that I think is good to check out. (I posted it earlier in the thread).

I can't really judge the pros and cons from a biological POV but a lot of their remedies are bacterial and are rectal delivery.

The remedies are based on the work of Gunther Enderlein.

https://www.sanum.com/index.php

 

[Xemnoraq]

@haidut i was wondering if you could reccomend some of the most powerful anti-fungals/antibiotics you know, ive been struggling so much with extreme bloating an absolutely horrible brain fog where i literally feel like i am disabled and cannot do complex tasks it feels like my brain is getting almost no oxygen and my entire body feels like i ran a race when i havent exerted myself at all (lactic acid buildup) , i believe my problems to be endotoxin/aflatoxin mold related. I had consumed massive amounts of certain foods that i only found out later were shown to have extremely high levels of aflatoxin and mold contamination, now almost everything i eat gives me a horrible reaction and crippling brain fog to the point where i often feel like im going to faint and my diet is mostly liquids. I recently went to see doctors in toronto at a special clinic and they refuted the fact that bacteria can grow in the small intestine, i was beyond baffled at the fact they would dismiss so many thing when there is clear evidence it happens, they also didnt even know what endotoxin is and refused the idea that bacteria cause ibs/crohns etc and they said there is no cure for them and they dont know why it happens, extremely closed minded individuals. Ive been off work because it become very severe and i really feel like Peat is the only sensible person on the planet whos advice i can follow along with this forum considering the doctors hae been useless. Im currently using niacinamide, the occasional aspirin and peppermint and oregano oil with the odd raw carrot and unfortunately, these things do provide some relief but nothing has foxed the problem, i feel as though i need something with a really good kick! Thanks.

 

[bk_]

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[bk_]

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[haidut]

@haidut i was wondering if you could reccomend some of the most powerful anti-fungals/antibiotics you know, ive been struggling so much with extreme bloating an absolutely horrible brain fog where i literally feel like i am disabled and cannot do complex tasks it feels like my brain is getting almost no oxygen and my entire body feels like i ran a race when i havent exerted myself at all (lactic acid buildup) , i believe my problems to be endotoxin/aflatoxin mold related. I had consumed massive amounts of certain foods that i only found out later were shown to have extremely high levels of aflatoxin and mold contamination, now almost everything i eat gives me a horrible reaction and crippling brain fog to the point where i often feel like im going to faint and my diet is mostly liquids. I recently went to see doctors in toronto at a special clinic and they refuted the fact that bacteria can grow in the small intestine, i was beyond baffled at the fact they would dismiss so many thing when there is clear evidence it happens, they also didnt even know what endotoxin is and refused the idea that bacteria cause ibs/crohns etc and they said there is no cure for them and they dont know why it happens, extremely closed minded individuals. Ive been off work because it become very severe and i really feel like Peat is the only sensible person on the planet whos advice i can follow along with this forum considering the doctors hae been useless. Im currently using niacinamide, the occasional aspirin and peppermint and oregano oil with the odd raw carrot and unfortunately, these things do provide some relief but nothing has foxed the problem, i feel as though i need something with a really good kick! Thanks.

MCT with a decent amount of caprylic acid is pretty good as anti-bacterial, anti-viral and anti-fungal. One tablespoon, 2-3 times daily for a few days should have a very cleansing effect. Methylene blue has the same effects, especially when combined with bright light. Search the forum for both, there are plenty of discussions on that.

 

[tankasnowgod]

Adding to this, here is a clip of Peat talking favorably about Lactobacillus. Interesting thing, he says it can be beneficial even if it's dead-



I made a thread about it here, and there have been some tests and success using "inactivated" probiotics-

Probiotics- Better Off Dead. (And More Effective!)

An interesting note on Lactobacillus being anti-inflammatory (either alive or dead), it's currently the only known form of life that can survive with no iron at all-

Project MUSE - The Lactobacillus Anomaly: Total Iron Abstinence

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdf/10.1111/j.1574-6968.1983.tb00504.x

 

[Antonello]

All great points, and this is why I stay away from probiotics altogether. There is just no reliable way to test if the capsule delivers its payload in the small intestine or the gut. If there was pure phage capsule product it would probably be good since the phages should be able to clear both the small intestine and the gut.
I think you are spot on with the rectal delivery of bacteria. The fecal transplant for patients with Clostridium infection are in effect an alternative delivery method for probiotics. There are quite a few studies on this method and even established products on the market. However they tend to be VERY expensive. Here is one, just as an example that I do not suggest or endorse in any way.
https://www.amazon.com/BioPure-Brav...id=1535987552&sr=8-3&keywords=bravo+probiotic

Would a plain probiotic in capsule works if use mixed with an enema delivery?

 

[JDreamer]

In regards to this thread - I can say with 100% certainty that my gut health was never the same after a 2-3 week round of ANTIBIOTICS back in 2005-2006.

 

[Bart1]

In regards to this thread - I can say with 100% certainty that my gut health was never the same after a 2-3 week round of ANTIBIOTICS back in 2005-2006.

You mean this in a bad way?

 

[JDreamer]

You mean this in a bad way?

I sure do. First the bloating started, which I believe has led to a cascade of other unresolved issues.

 

[Dobbler]

I sure do. First the bloating started, which I believe has led to a cascade of other unresolved issues.

What antibiotics did u take?

 

[TheBeard]

Would a plain probiotic in capsule works if use mixed with an enema delivery?

I’ve tried it a lot of times, with close to a billion CFU in a retention enema.

Even did home made fecal transplants from healthy donnor four times, didn’t work for me.

Only thing that worked was a course of antibiotics: Xifaxan + Augmentin + Azithromycin.

My SIBO has been greatly alleviated.

It was originally caused by all these years of popping probiotics because I read it was healthy...

For 3 years I’ve struggled with my health thinking the problem was not enough bacteria, when it was actually too much in the wrong place.

 

[JDreamer]

What antibiotics did u take?

Penicillin 500V was prescribed. It was for an oral infection in the gumline of one of my wisdom teeth. I tried working thru it for a almost two weeks, but I got so incredibly sick at one point I checked myself into the hospital.

 

[mrchibbs]

In regards to this thread - I can say with 100% certainty that my gut health was never the same after a 2-3 week round of ANTIBIOTICS back in 2005-2006.

Just to further the discussion. Where you breastfed as a child? How was your health/digestive system prior to 2005-2006?

 

[Bart1]

I have hemochromatosis, which was found around age 21...luckily..., however I read that bacteria thrive on iron; compounded with me taking pro biotics and fish oil and other seed oil crap back in the days, and years of eating a quick breakfast of oats, whey and a banana. last 10 years it really started to get a problem. I often had blocked sinuses and I had an operation on my nose for it. Didn't help much, in fact it made it worse. Before the operation I had only a cold in my nose, after I started getting regular sinusitis. In my office building the have a carpet and the airco is coming out of the floor! I started getting them more and more and felt really sick for days. I got rounds of antibiotics, tetracylines and doxycycline. It helped get it away but it kept coming back.

Couple of weeks back I took erythromycin 2-3 days 1 tablet. I slept the whole night, which I haven't in ages. Also, on the second day I started getting really hungry (something I battle with for some time now). I stopped with it taking it after 3 days because I got some more edema probably my liver/kidneys have a hard time. And like Peat suggested only a couple of days. I also got really tired, so I guess a die off effect. The positive effects didn't last however and I also got more fungal issues.

 

[Amazoniac]

- Probiotics: If It Does Not Help It Does Not Do Any Harm. Really?

 

[Dobbler]

2.4. d-lactate, Metabolic Acidosis, and Brain Fogginess
Probiotic consumption is associated with D-lactic academia and acidosis in adults and infants on probiotic-containing formula [41,135,136,137,138,139]. Lactobacillus and Bifidobacterium species are the most used bacteria in probiotic formulations and they produce d-lactate [139,140,141,142] and their consumption was suggested to be avoided in d-lactic acidosis [139]. Intriguingly, d-lactic acidosis and other etiologies for acidosis are associated with neurocognitive symptoms, neurological impairments, and chronic fatigue syndrome [137,143,144], including brain fogginess [41,139]. The syndrome of brain fogginess has, in fact, multiple etiologies, one of which is short bowel syndrome associated with D-lactic acidosis [41,139,144,145]. Despite the critical view on the association with probiotic intake [146,147], the discontinuation of the antibiotics and the resolution of the symptoms on antibiotic therapy, strengthen the causative association [41,139].
2.5. Intestinal Bacterial Overgrowth, Gas, and Bloating
This paragraph is related to the above paragraph and might explain the pathophysiology of the acidosis and brain fogginess described above. Rao et al. described a new syndrome relating post-prandial brain fogginess, gas, and abdominal bloating to small intestinal bacterial overgrowth and probiotic-induced d-lactic acidosis [41,139]. Additional complaints were fatigue, weakness, disorientation, and restlessness. The authors put forward the hypothesis that probiotic fermented carbohydrates in the proximal small bowel induce intestinal bacterial overgrowth, resulting in d-lactic acid production, increased gas output, and abdominal bloating. The d-lactic acidosis is the culprit for the brain fogginess. They suggested that this unique entity is an additional side effect of probiotic consumption.
2.6. Additional Clinical Probiotic Side Effects
The medical literature warns against probiotic consumption in congenital or acquired immune debilitating conditions, heart anomalies, chemo- and radiotherapies, surgical abdomen, HIV-infected, critically ill, post-organ transplantation, post-operation, central venous catheters, autoimmune disease on immune suppression, pregnancy, neutropenia, critically ill patients, including antibiotic-associated diarrhea, active ulcerative colitis, and potential for translocation of probiotic across bowel wall [74,148,149]. Although it is not the main focus of the present review, to wrap up the subject, Table 2 summarizes the reported toxic, unintended, adverse effects following probiotic usage.

 

[Amazoniac]

Yogurt products should add to the label the following message:

There is hope, make a call.
The consequences of eating from this pot are irreversible and tragic.

Spoiler

It's almost as dangerous as consuming orange carrots.

- Survival of Yogurt Bacteria in the Human Gut

"Traditional yogurt starters have nonhuman origins, and they (especially streptococci) are known to suffer from exposure to gastric acidic conditions (7) and to have a moderate ability to adhere to intestinal epithelial cells (12)."

"There have been conflicting studies concerning the recovery of L. delbrueckii subsp. bulgaricus and S. thermophilus from fecal samples after daily yogurt ingestion. Some authors reported that L. delbrueckii subsp. bulgaricus and S. thermophilus were not recovered from feces of young (9) and elderly (26) subjects. On the other hand, Brigidi et al. (4) reported that for 6 days after the end of treatment, they recovered S. thermophilus from fecal samples from 10 healthy subjects who had ingested a pharmaceutical preparation orally for 3 days. The persistence of a yogurt culture in the human gut was also recently confirmed by Mater et al. (22), who studied 13 healthy volunteers fed yogurt containing rifampin- and streptomycin-resistant strains of S. thermophilus and L. delbrueckii subsp. bulgaricus."

"The aim of this study was to investigate the recovery of viable L. delbrueckii subsp. bulgaricus and S. thermophilus from fecal samples from 20 wealthy volunteers fed commercial yogurt for 1 week.

Our study included 10 male and 10 female healthy subjects whose mean age was 32.3 years. These subjects ate 125 g of commercial yogurt (Bianco Naturale; Danone) twice a day for 1 week. The volunteers, who were divided into two groups of 10 subjects, were investigated once to determine the persistence of yogurt cultures in fecal samples."

"Since recently there have been conflicting reports, several authors are still debating the probiotic properties of traditional yogurt starters. Probiotic traits are currently considered to be strictly strain specific (29); therefore, the use of strain-specific molecular approaches is very relevant to the study of the survival and effects of yogurt starters on host health.

Moreover, the ability to survive transit through the gastrointestinal tract, the ability to reach the distal tract in a viable form, and the ability to be recovered from feces by culture methods are unequivocally considered key features for a probiotic. These considerations led us to focus on accurate strain-specific retrieval of viable yogurt cultures in fecal samples, while other authors failed to consider this aspect (9).

In conclusion, we confirmed that yogurt bacteria, especially L. delbrueckii subsp. bulgaricus, can be retrieved from feces of healthy individuals after a few days of ingestion of commercial yogurt. Moreover, our results indicate that very careful setup of the analytic procedures can dramatically improve the reliability of studies of the survival of yogurt starters."​

- High Protein Option For People Living In USA
- Implication of sortase-dependent proteins of Streptococcus thermophilus in adhesion to human intestinal epithelial cell lines and bile salt tolerance