Notes Toward An "Optimal Peat Diet"

[narouz]

A major part of the diet should be milk, cheese, eggs, shell

A major part of the diet should be milk, cheese, eggs, shellfish, fruits and coconut oil, with vitamin E and salt as the safest supplements.

--Ray Peat

Notice that:

Peat does NOT say that Potatoes should "be a major part of the diet."
Peat does NOT say that Rice should "be a major part of the diet."
Peat does NOT say that Masa Harina should "be a major part of the diet."
Peat does NOT say that Sweet Potatoes should "be a major part of the diet."
Peat does NOT say that taro, nor yuca, nor cassavi should "be a major part of the diet."

Peat does NOT say that Chicken should "be a major part of the diet."
Peat does NOT say that Pork should "be a major part of the diet."
Peat does NOT say that Turkey should "be a major part of the diet."
[actually, those should almost be categorized as, frankly, "Bad" for you.]

Peat does NOT even say that "beef or lamb" should be a major part of the diet.

Peat does NOT say that whole milk products, nor over one teaspoon of olive oil, "should be a major part of the diet."

All grains are no-go's
(except of course for the favorably seen Peat carbs like: masa harina and whitel rice, each boiled to death in lye or treated with the chemical lime.

Vegetables: you should avoid them but you may think of them nostalgically as "condiments."

 

[narouz]

Re: Notes Toward a Handle like a "Basic Peat Diet" (BPD)

I'm winnowing and threshing some here,
taking the "Big Glob of General, Guiding Statements and Interpretation"
from a few posts back
and trying to sort it and distill it.
Look back to that post for source documentation.

I hope these largely general Peat statements
will help us begin to form a picture
of the proportions and amounts
of a Peat Derived Food Chart
or a concise guide called something like
a "Strict Peat Diet" or "Basic Peat Diet" or "Peat Derived Diet"
or whatever....

Total Diet Proportions

“This [a pro-metabolic diet] would emphasize high protein, low unsaturated fats, low iron, and high antioxidant consumption, with a moderate or low starch consumption. In practice, this means that a major part of the diet should be milk, cheese, eggs, shellfish, fruits and coconut oil..."

"Milk, cheese, and fruits provide a very good balance of nutrients."

"A daily diet that includes two quarts of milk and a quart of orange juice provides enough fructose and other sugars for general resistance to stress, but larger amounts of fruit juice, honey, or other sugars can protect against increased stress, and can reverse some of the established degenerative conditions."

"Milk, cheese, and fruits provide a very good balance of nutrients."

Protein

"Muscle meats (including the muscles of poultry and fish) contain large amounts of the amino acids that suppress the thyroid, and shouldn't be the only source of protein."

"Meat as the main protein can provide too much phosphorus in relation to calcium."

For an adult, gelatin can be a major protein in the diet, since the need for cysteine and tryptophan decreases greatly when growth slows.

[This is not a quote from Peat so I colored it, but is purportedly his advice. Interesting view on gelatin a possible big protein source.]

"Fruits provide a significant amount of protein."

"Meat as the main protein can provide too much phosphorus in relation to calcium."

"Potatoes are a source of good protein."

"While nutritional reference tables often show fruits and potatoes as having about 2% protein content, while nuts, grains, and legumes are shown with a high protein content, often in the range of 15% to 40%, they neglect to point out that fruits and potatoes have a very high water content, while that of the seeds is extremely low. The protein content of milk is about 3%, which according to the charts would suggest that it is inferior to beans and grains. In fact, the protein value of grain is negligible, mainly because seeds contain their protein in a storage form, that is extremely rich in nitrogen, but poor in essential amino acids. Special preparation is needed to reduce the toxicity of seeds, and in the case of beans, these methods are never very satisfactory."

"Milk contains a small amount of thyroid and progesterone, but it also contains a good balance of amino acids. For adults, the amino acid balance of cheese might be even better, since the whey portion of milk contains more tryptophan than the curd, and tryptophan excess is significantly antagonistic to thyroid function."

"The muscle meats contain so much tryptophan and cysteine (which is both antithyroid and potentially excitotoxic) that a pure meat diet can cause hypothyroidism."

"Research in the amino acid requirements of adults has been very inadequate, since it has been largely directed toward finding methods to produce farm animals with a minimum of expense for feed.... As a result, adult rats have provided most of our direct information about the protein requirements of adults, and since rats keep growing for most of their life, their amino acid requirements are unlikely to be the same as ours."

"It's a good idea to have a quart of milk (about 32 grams of protein) every day, besides a variety of other high quality proteins, including cheeses, eggs, shellfish, and potatoes."

Fats

"People can do well on high or low fat or carbohydrate, but when the carbohydrate is very low, some of the protein will be wasted as fuel, replacing the missing glucose."

"An important function of coconut oil is that it supports mitochondrial respiration, increasing energy production that has been blocked by the unsaturated fatty acids."

"If the fat is mostly saturated, from milk, cheese, butter, beef, lamb or coconut oil, I think it's usually o.k. to get about 50% of the calories from fat, but since those natural fats typically contain around 2% polyunsaturated fats, I try to minimize my PUFA intake by having more fruit, and a little less fat, maybe 30 to 35%."

Carbs

"I think a person of average size should have at least 180 grams per day, maybe an average of about 250 grams."

"The fructose component of ordinary sugar (sucrose) helps to increase the metabolic rate."

"That [carb intake, I guess] depends on your size, metabolic rate, and activity, and the other nutrients, but I sometimes have more than that [400 G OF CARBOHYDRATE], including the sugar in milk and orange juice (and I'm about your size, and very sedentary)."

"Roots, shoots, and tubers are, next to the fruits, a good carbohydrate source."

"I have often had a gallon of orange juice in a day, with 100 grams of other sugar, and didn't see any problem, even while being sedentary."

"People can do well on high or low fat or carbohydrate, but when the carbohydrate is very low, some of the protein will be wasted as fuel, replacing the missing glucose."

"Sugar helps the liver to make cholesterol, switching from starchy vegetables to sweet fruits will usually bring cholesterol levels up to normal."

"Starch and glucose efficiently stimulate insulin secretion, and that accelerates the disposition of glucose, activating its conversion to glycogen and fat, as well as its oxidation. Fructose inhibits the stimulation of insulin by glucose, so this means that eating ordinary sugar, sucrose (a disaccharide, consisting of glucose and fructose), in place of starch, will reduce the tendency to store fat."

"In general, the plant’s most intense toxins are in its seeds, and the fruits, when mature, generally contain practically no toxins. Roots contain chemicals that inhibit microorganisms, but because they aren’t easily accessible by grazing animals and insects, they don’t contain the digestive inhibitors that are more concentrated in the above-ground organs of the plant."

"Generally, fruits, roots, and tubers provide a high concentration of nutrients along with low concentrations of toxic antimetabolic substances."

 

[charlie]

Re: Notes Toward a Handle like a "Basic Peat Diet" (BPD)

Narouz, you are doing some really excellent work. Wish I could be more help. Many thanks for the effort and time you are putting into this.

The last summary of statements you give really sets a nice foundation. I find myself moving in the general direction of the statements above. Especially this one:

“This [a pro-metabolic diet] would emphasize high protein, low unsaturated fats, low iron, and high antioxidant consumption, with a moderate or low starch consumption. In practice, this means that a major part of the diet should be [strike]milk[/strike], cheese, eggs, shellfish, fruits and coconut oil..."

I have crossed out milk because I cannot handle it right now, although, I am hoping one day I will be able to handle it, and I also seem to do better with zero, or a very small amount of eggs. Maybe a couple a week. I feel the combination of cheese, shellfish, fruit, coconut oil, and coffee is going to move me ahead in the direction I need to go.

If anyone could take the above quote and run with it, I am pretty sure they will start seeing positive results. Especially if you can handle the milk.

 

[Birdie]

Re: Notes Toward a Handle like a "Basic Peat Diet" (BPD)

I liked narouz's Aug 25 comment with the NOTs!

 

[narouz]

Re: Notes Toward a Handle like a "Basic Peat Diet" (BPD)

Narouz, you are doing some really excellent work. Wish I could be more help. Many thanks for the effort and time you are putting into this.

The last summary of statements you give really sets a nice foundation. I find myself moving in the general direction of the statements above. Especially this one:

“This [a pro-metabolic diet] would emphasize high protein, low unsaturated fats, low iron, and high antioxidant consumption, with a moderate or low starch consumption. In practice, this means that a major part of the diet should be [strike]milk[/strike], cheese, eggs, shellfish, fruits and coconut oil..."

I have crossed out milk because I cannot handle it right now, although, I am hoping one day I will be able to handle it, and I also seem to do better with zero, or a very small amount of eggs. Maybe a couple a week. I feel the combination of cheese, shellfish, fruit, coconut oil, and coffee is going to move me ahead in the direction I need to go.

If anyone could take the above quote and run with it, I am pretty sure they will start seeing positive results. Especially if you can handle the milk.

Thanks, Charlie!

And it's great to hear that you're finding some things that work for you
in terms of Peat options.

One little thing that popped into my head as I read your post:
Over on Danny Roddy's site, a while back,
Danny related that Dr. Peat eats something like
a can of oysters every day.

I love oysters,
but I've never had the canned ones...
they seem a little scary to me for some reason.
But I guess not to Dr. P!

Danny says that oysters are a great source of zinc and copper
as I recall.
Copper helps the body not to store too much iron, I believe.

 

[narouz]

Re: Notes Toward a Handle like a "Basic Peat Diet" (BPD)

I liked narouz's Aug 25 comment with the NOTs!

Thanks, Birdie.
That's the "Old Testament" Narouz!
"Thou Shalt NOT"!

 

[Nick810]

Re: Notes Toward a Handle like a "Basic Peat Diet" (BPD)

One little thing that popped into my head as I read your post:
Over on Danny Roddy's site, a while back,
Danny related that Dr. Peat eats something like
a can of oysters every day.

If only there was a nice source to buy these.... A lot of canned ones available from Korea just got recalled.

 

[narouz]

Re: Notes Toward a Handle like a "Basic Peat Diet" (BPD)

One little thing that popped into my head as I read your post:
Over on Danny Roddy's site, a while back,
Danny related that Dr. Peat eats something like
a can of oysters every day.

If only there was a nice source to buy these.... A lot of canned ones available from Korea just got recalled.

Yeah...
I had this girlfried, decades ago.
She loved smoked oysters in the can.
They just seemed a little creepy to me.
Seems like I tried one and it was...meh....

But it is very expensive to eat fresh oysters every week.
Maybe I just need to buy like one or two or three fresh unshucked oysters at a time
and have them throughout the week.
I'm thinking that it is not important to eat a tremendous volume of them,
because it would seem to be mainly the minerals one is after,
the Sea Minerals.
Zinc and copper I've heard are really high in oysters.
Peat discusses the need for copper--
in short it offsets iron.

Then again...Dr. Peat...a can per day...?
Maybe he needs them because his metabolism is so high?
Maybe he's doing a self-experiment?

 

[narouz]

"...a daily intake of 100 grams of gelatin..."

In some of the older studies, therapeutic results improved when the daily gelatin was increased. Since 30 grams of glycine was commonly used for treating muscular dystrophy and myasthenia gravis, a daily intake of 100 grams of gelatin wouldn't seem unreasonable, and some people find that quantities in that range help to decrease fatigue. For a growing child, though, such a large amount of refined gelatin would tend to displace other important foods. The National Academy of Sciences recently reviewed the requirements for working adults (male and female soldiers, in particular), and suggested that 100 grams of balanced protein was needed for efficient work. For adults, a large part of that could be in the form of gelatin.

-Ray Peat in Gelatin, Stress, Longevity
http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/gelatin.shtml

I'm focusing on these parts of the above quotation:

"...a daily intake of 100 grams of gelatin wouldn't seem unreasonable..."

"For adults, a large part of that could be in the form of gelatin."

So maybe, if Peat is discussing 100 grams of gelatin per day as reasonable,
and if he regards gelatin as a seemingly excellent protein source...

...maybe gelatin deserves a more prominent place on a Peat Derived Food Chart...?

 

[charlie]

Re: Notes Toward a Handle like a "Basic Peat Diet" (BPD)

It sure would seem that way, narouz.

 

[narouz]

Re: "...a daily intake of 100 grams of gelatin..."

In some of the older studies, therapeutic results improved when the daily gelatin was increased. Since 30 grams of glycine was commonly used for treating muscular dystrophy and myasthenia gravis, a daily intake of 100 grams of gelatin wouldn't seem unreasonable, and some people find that quantities in that range help to decrease fatigue. For a growing child, though, such a large amount of refined gelatin would tend to displace other important foods. The National Academy of Sciences recently reviewed the requirements for working adults (male and female soldiers, in particular), and suggested that 100 grams of balanced protein was needed for efficient work. For adults, a large part of that could be in the form of gelatin.

-Ray Peat in Gelatin, Stress, Longevity
http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/gelatin.shtml

I'm focusing on these parts of the above quotation:

"...a daily intake of 100 grams of gelatin wouldn't seem unreasonable..."

"For adults, a large part of that could be in the form of gelatin."

So maybe, if Peat is discussing 100 grams of gelatin per day as reasonable,
and if he regards gelatin as a seemingly excellent protein source...

...maybe gelatin deserves a more prominent place on a Peat Derived Food Chart...?

If we think about what Peat says about gelatin, above,
and we also bear in mind his general comment about protein...

"It's a good idea to have a quart of milk (about 32 grams of protein) every day, besides a variety of other high quality proteins, including cheeses, eggs, shellfish, and potatoes."

...it would seem we can form a pretty good picture of what Peat thinks
our best protein sources are.

It gets complicated
because many of those protein sources are not just good only for protein.
Eggs have a lot of other nutrients.
Shellfish do too.

It is interesting that Peat, above and elsewhere,
extolls potatoes for their excellent, high-quality Protein.
I think this gets overlooked.
And it is also a bit murky how Peat feels about potatoes
as a Carbohydrate source.
They are a starch--which Peat generally frowns upon.
But he also says they are more like a fruit than a starch.
Potatoes are one of the trickiest food-areas for me in The Kingdom O' Peat!

Complication arises also because some of those Peat-favored Protein sources
like eggs
are also significant sources of PUFA
--so much so that Peat says he eats them only to the tune of something like one every other day or so.
Here there is murk also,
because Peat said that about commercial eggs.
But it would seem that truly "pastured eggs" might have far less PUFAs.

Then with shellfish as a protein source...still more murk.
I wouldn't think they would be an ideal source--for Peat--of daily, major protein
(although I could be wrong, because I've heard Danny Roddy report
that he eats an entire can of oysters every day).
I would think that Peat suggests shellfish as a protein source
because they ALSO supply crucial nutrients for good metabolism
like copper and zinc.
But I wonder if he has any reservations about eating A LOT of them, daily,
because of the general mercury pollution of the seas...?

 

[narouz]

Some thoughts on Fats

"People can do well on high or low fat or carbohydrate, but when the carbohydrate is very low, some of the protein will be wasted as fuel, replacing the missing glucose."--RP

"If the fat is mostly saturated, from milk, cheese, butter, beef, lamb or coconut oil, I think it's usually o.k. to get about 50% of the calories from fat, but since those natural fats typically contain around 2% polyunsaturated fats, I try to minimize my PUFA intake by having more fruit, and a little less fat, maybe 30 to 35%."--RP

Pretty loaded statement, "People can do well on high or low fat or carbohydrate [diet]."
If I'm interpreting Peat correctly there,
he is saying:
people can do well on a high fat diet or a low fat diet,
and
people can do well on a high carbohydrate or low carbohydrate diet.

I guess I should note, with regard to that last quote, above,
that it comes from Danny Roddy's "Ray Peat's Brain" compendium,
which is wonderful--but raw
in terms of attribution and sourcing.
There are a lot of "quotes" there putatively from Peat,
but sometimes they would seem to be approximate quotes
(like where someone has had a private consult with Peat and they try to communicate
what Peat said to them as best they remember).
And then also those "quotes" are stripped of their context:
who were these quotes said to?
what was the question asked to Peat in eliciting his answer?

That said,
if we take that quote at face value (that is, that it is from Peat and is accurate),
we might think that Peat throws open the doors so wide
as to threaten to make clear thinking about diet difficult.
We might, more charitably,
interpret Peat as meaning that there is a wide range of possible healthy proportions
when it comes to ratios of fats and carbs.

Peat does say that if carbs are too low
"...some of the protein will be wasted as fuel, replacing the missing glucose."
And also we have to balance his very open statement
with his other much clearer statements about ideal carbohydrate intake, like...

I think a person of average size should have at least 180 grams per day, maybe an average of about 250 grams. --RP

...and also his statements about how much he eats daily in terms of carbohydrates:

"That [I'm assuming "that" means "daily carb intake"] depends on your size, metabolic rate, and activity, and the other nutrients, but I sometimes have more than that [400 G OF CARBOHYDRATE], including the sugar in milk and orange juice (and I'm about your size, and very sedentary)."

And he notes that he also reins in his own fat intake, as I quoted him above, because of
PUFA concerns:

"If the fat is mostly saturated, from milk, cheese, butter, beef, lamb or coconut oil, I think it's usually o.k. to get about 50% of the calories from fat, but since those natural fats typically contain around 2% polyunsaturated fats, I try to minimize my PUFA intake by having more fruit, and a little less fat, maybe 30 to 35%."--RP

So Peat does make statements favoring more carbohydrate (from fruit) consumption
compared to fat consumption,
to the tune of about 70% carb to 30% fat.

Here it is important to note the general idea
that Peat is talking about those percentages within the context of
total daily calories
(if I'm reading him right).
There are many other considerations
that go into trying to figure out the overall proportions of a Peat Derived diet.
In the quotes from Peat above he seems to be speaking only to
the caloric or fuel part of the diet....

 

[j.]

Re: Notes Toward a Handle like a "Basic Peat Diet" (BPD)

narouz, I recently listened to a Peat radio interview, though I don't have the link now, where he said that the ideal macronutrients ratio is a third of each, but if the sources of each macronutrient are good (I suppose this means carbs from fruits, including gelatin among the proteins, coconut oil among the fats), then deviating from that ideal ratio doesn't matter.

for me the second part of the statement is helpful, that the sources of all macronutrients should be good. the first part is confusing and seemingly unhelpful.

 

[narouz]

Re: Notes Toward a Handle like a "Basic Peat Diet" (BPD)

narouz, I recently listened to a Peat radio interview, though I don't have the link now, where he said that the ideal macronutrients ratio is a third of each, but if the sources of each macronutrient are good (I suppose this means carbs from fruits, including gelatin among the proteins, coconut oil among the fats), then deviating from that ideal ratio doesn't matter.

for me the second part of the statement is helpful, that the sources of all macronutrients should be good. the first part is confusing and seemingly unhelpful.

That's interesting, j.
I'd love to get a link to that particular interview.

Now when you say...

"he said that the ideal macronutrients ratio is a third of each, but if the sources of each macronutrient are good (I suppose this means carbs from fruits, including gelatin among the proteins, coconut oil among the fats), then deviating from that ideal ratio doesn't matter."

...and when you use the term "macronutrients,"
are you referring to things like fats, carbohydrates, and proteins?

 

[narouz]

My Caloric Ignorance

As I was driving out to "Whole Paycheck" this afternoon,
I was pondering that quote of Peat's I noted a little while ago, up the thread:

"If the fat is mostly saturated, from milk, cheese, butter, beef, lamb or coconut oil, I think it's usually o.k. to get about 50% of the calories from fat, but since those natural fats typically contain around 2% polyunsaturated fats, I try to minimize my PUFA intake by having more fruit, and a little less fat, maybe 30 to 35%."--RP

I have no training at all in calories and stuff,
and I've never tried to count or even be aware of calories, but...

...if one got "50% of the calories from fat"
...that seems like one is eating A LOT of fat, doesn't it?
Especially on something like a Peat diet?

Now, I know that the calories in fats are very dense,
so maybe a little bit of butter or beef fat or cheese or even coconut oil
goes a long way:
that is, a small volume of fat could translate into a lot of calories.

Still...I'm having a little trouble picturing someone
on something that could be called a Peat diet
getting 50% of their calories from fats--even the Peat-healthy fats.

Guess I need to consult some food/calorie tables and compare to get a handle on this....

 

[j.]

Re: Notes Toward a Handle like a "Basic Peat Diet" (BPD)

...and when you use the term "macronutrients,"
are you referring to things like fats, carbohydrates, and proteins?

yes.

the interview was from east west healing

http://eastwesthealing.com/resources/ray-peat/

 

[narouz]

Re: Notes Toward a Handle like a "Basic Peat Diet" (BPD)

...and when you use the term "macronutrients,"
are you referring to things like fats, carbohydrates, and proteins?

yes.

the interview was from east west healing

http://eastwesthealing.com/resources/ray-peat/

Thanks, j. !
I'll check it out.

 

[nwo2012]

Re: Notes Toward a Handle like a "Basic Peat Diet" (BPD)

Lets not forget the option of the RPPPS as I call it (Ray Peat Potato Protein Soup). Thats how I get the excellent protein of potatoes without the starch. I eat at least a bowl per day of this, and when working nightshift two. Yummy when salted.

 

[narouz]

RPPPS

Lets not forget the option of the RPPPS as I call it (Ray Peat Potato Protein Soup). Thats how I get the excellent protein of potatoes without the starch. I eat at least a bowl per day of this, and when working nightshift two. Yummy when salted.

You make a great point.
I think maybe I've wanted to forget about it
whenever I come across mention of it! :P

Because--tell me if I've got this right--
you juice the potatoes,
throw away the non-liquid,
then cook the liquid...?

Sounds so odd.

But you're right, if that method accomplishes what you think it does:
delivers what Peat says is the high-quality of potato protein
while removing the starch.

I'm thinking one has to have the right kind of juicer to make the "RPPPS," yes?
Some juicers--like the kind I have, I'm thinking--would just create a slurry
and remove nothing...?
What kind of juicer do you use, "nwo2012"?

I guess yours separates out the fiber?
If so, that is not the same thing as removing the starch...is it?
So you would still have the cook the juiced liquid
(and for over 40 minutes, according to Peat)...?

 

[nwo2012]

Re: Notes Toward a Handle like a "Basic Peat Diet" (BPD)

The one I use is a very cheap k-mart generic one. It basically pulverizes the potatoes, so removes all the pulp into one area and the 'juice' ends up in a pouring vessel. Well you let this 'juice' stand for a few minutes and it seperates, with the starch going to the bottom. You then use a ladle to remove the juice from the top, put it into a pot and add salt. Maybe add a little purified water. Boil it until it thickens up. I usually still add some more water and keep cooking to be sure as yes a little starch is left behind.
The pulp/starch gets added to the chicken's food.