Is Fiber Really All That Bad?

[CarbAppreciator]

My mother is very into "health" and fed us lots of fiber when I was a kid; whole grain everything, long before it was popular, so I'm not sure that theory applies to me, although as a young adult I took to a very unhealthy (by any standards) lifestyle that may have destroyed the any healthy gut flora I may have had, but I remember even as a kid, having lots of gas and gurgling all the time, and it never occurred to me then that it was too much fiber (for me).

Were you formula fed?

 

[ecstatichamster]

I lived on psyllium for several decades. I mean, I took it at least once a day.

It turns out that it was causing me chronic headaches.

But it did help my gut a lot. Now I have transitioned to lower starch, lots of fruit, dairy and OJ, and carrot salad once a day, and I'm doing much better than I was before.

Ray has said psyllium is carcinogenic slightly, and it could be true. But for me it seems to trigger headaches perhaps via serotonin.

But it did really work. It helped my butt not be sore and helped me digest and function much much better. I was a mess before psyllium. i am thankful that I am not using it and that I am better today.

 

[keith]

Were you formula fed?

No, breast fed

 

[CarbAppreciator]

Lots of formula have different fibers added so maybe that's a big factor in fiber tolerance, anyone who has Peats email, ask him about it.

 

[yerrag]

Sometimes I wonder this also... I mean there are people who buy fiber to ingest, literally.
For example, why would a person buy Psyllium (which is, for what I understand, a lot of fiber) and ingest it with water?
@tca300 I read somewhere that you take some Psyllium. If it is not asking too much, could you explain why do take it on a daily basis?

Also the fact people claim that there is some types of fiber that feed good bacteria. Seriously, good and bad bacteria, is there such a thing?

Have you ever read this though?
Ch 1. Fiber Carnage

Thanks Ukall. That was a good read.

I think the danger is about having excess fiber, given that fiber is being incorporated into many foods, and that the conventional wisdom is about taking more fiber, even as supplements because they are supposedly good for our health. There is no warning about the upper limit of intake, and when the upper limit is constantly being exceeded, that is where it contributes to chronic conditions. Maybe if we just eat food without consciously seeking out its fiber content, we could just end up with an adequate level of fiber in our food intake, we would be better off.

Then again, I have been eating brown rice for more than 16 years already. Whenever I switch to white rice, I can feel myself getting sleepy shortly, which I attribute to the rapid digestion of white rice. With brown rice, I don't get these energy lows, which I attribute to the fiber in brown rice slowing down my digestion and thus slowly meter the digested carbs as sugar into the bloodstream.

Perhaps eating brown rice is a way for me to cope with my body's inability to metabolize the sudden influx of glucose from the rapid digestion of white rice. That inability would cause my blood sugar to go higher and trigger an insulin response. That insulin response would result in the eventual lowering of my blood sugar, which would cause me to feel sleepy or lose energy. I would expect that my glycogen stores would supply glucose to the body, but perhaps that part of me isn't working as it should.

Still, I wonder if there are people here who eat white rice and feel perfectly fine, and don't experience the issues I face. If so, I would like to work my way back to eating white rice and still feel energetic, because that would mean my body's ability to metabolize glucose is 100% functional, and my glycogen stores are supplying me with glucose to keep my blood sugar in tolerable limits.

 

[James IV]

Hmm, specially fat, right? Usually people advise to eat more fatty foods when they are constipated.
Fatty acids are the most important source of energy for the bowels if I am correct.

I've read some interesting theories on this. It does seem that SCFA are nessecary for good colon health. I've heard that Bactria will consume the lining of the colon if SCFA are not sufficient. Some people may have a gut profile that allows them to produce more SCFA through fermentation. I'd imagine those people can handle more fiber.
But I think low fiber can be counteracted by higher SCFA intake, but I'm not sure the opposite is always true.

I think we have only begun to understand the complex human gut.

 

[keith]

Thanks Ukall. That was a good read.

I think the danger is about having excess fiber, given that fiber is being incorporated into many foods, and that the conventional wisdom is about taking more fiber, even as supplements because they are supposedly good for our health. There is no warning about the upper limit of intake, and when the upper limit is constantly being exceeded, that is where it contributes to chronic conditions. Maybe if we just eat food without consciously seeking out its fiber content, we could just end up with an adequate level of fiber in our food intake, we would be better off.

Then again, I have been eating brown rice for more than 16 years already. Whenever I switch to white rice, I can feel myself getting sleepy shortly, which I attribute to the rapid digestion of white rice. With brown rice, I don't get these energy lows, which I attribute to the fiber in brown rice slowing down my digestion and thus slowly meter the digested carbs as sugar into the bloodstream.

Perhaps eating brown rice is a way for me to cope with my body's inability to metabolize the sudden influx of glucose from the rapid digestion of white rice. That inability would cause my blood sugar to go higher and trigger an insulin response. That insulin response would result in the eventual lowering of my blood sugar, which would cause me to feel sleepy or lose energy. I would expect that my glycogen stores would supply glucose to the body, but perhaps that part of me isn't working as it should.

Still, I wonder if there are people here who eat white rice and feel perfectly fine, and don't experience the issues I face. If so, I would like to work my way back to eating white rice and still feel energetic, because that would mean my body's ability to metabolize glucose is 100% functional, and my glycogen stores are supplying me with glucose to keep my blood sugar in tolerable limits.

I suspect your body would adapt; I used to get greater peaks and valleys from starchy meals after coming from low carb, but I don't anymore. Ray Peat recommends eating protein with your carbs to slow absorption, and maybe a little fat, so not sure if that would help or not. You would probably have to experiment and stick with it for a while to see how you adapt, if you really want to go that route. You could try mixing white and brown rice in to transition too. If something is working for you, though, I might not worry too much about it. I think fiber is one of those things that can be very individual. If it isn't causing you problems, it might not be worth the stress of "fixing".

 

[tara]

I assume the idea of good and bad bacteria and all that is like the idea of not killing spiders in the house because they keep other bugs from taking up residence and multiplying

Nice analogy. I'm happy to have spiders in my house as long as they are not poisonous to us humans.

Seriously, good and bad bacteria, is there such a thing?

I don't think there's any doubt that some are a lot more hazardous to human health than others. Anything that takes up residence and leaves no space for c. difficile, or c. tetany or MRSA and various other nasty pathogens has got something going for it (upside), as far as I'm concerned, even if it does also produce lipopolysaccharides (mostly downside).
Good and bad may not always be straight-forward for bacteria, any more than it is with food.

I think we have only begun to understand the complex human gut.

+1

If something is working for you, though, I might not worry too much about it. I think fiber is one of those things that can be very individual. If it isn't causing you problems, it might not be worth the stress of "fixing".

+1

 

[yerrag]

I suspect your body would adapt; I used to get greater peaks and valleys from starchy meals after coming from low carb, but I don't anymore. Ray Peat recommends eating protein with your carbs to slow absorption, and maybe a little fat, so not sure if that would help or not. You would probably have to experiment and stick with it for a while to see how you adapt, if you really want to go that route. You could try mixing white and brown rice in to transition too. If something is working for you, though, I might not worry too much about it. I think fiber is one of those things that can be very individual. If it isn't causing you problems, it might not be worth the stress of "fixing".

My experience confirms likewise that having protein and fats with carbs goes a long way in keeping my blood sugar and energy level up. However, I last longer having brown rice over white rice.

Yet this very much, as you had mentioned, an experience that varies individual to individual. A friend of mine would be more comfortable just eating fruits and carbs, protein being optional for him in meals.

I can't help but allude to the principles of metabolic typing, where an individual could be Type
A and metabolizes sugar slowly, and another would be Type B, where he would burn sugar quickly. I am Type B, and would need protein to somehow slow down and meter the input of sugar into the blood stream from the villi of my small intestines.

Until Ray Peat, I used to think being Type B is a phenotype imprinted upon me. Now I'm questioning that. I'm still on a quest, though I should enjoy the journey and be happy I know how I am now so I know how to fine-tune what I eat to deal with my present "imperfect" condition.

I used to be sickly, and I would be downed by flu every year. I dreaded the cold of winter during February. No matter how much Vitamin C and supplements I took, I would be ill without fail. But when I recognized the root of my problem to be a blood sugar low issue, I knew how and what to eat to prevent blood sugar lows, and it's been 16 years since I had my last flu.

Protein, and fiber in brown rice has helped a lot, though not exclusively. To be more complete, I was also helped by heavy metal detox, especially mercury, and I may have been helped by fixing subluxation, or spinal misalignment, by chiropractic.

Still, I know my kryptonite- snacks of pure carbohydrate, such as candy, potato chips, or strawberry jam sandwiches, or protein-less pasta. I could go for a day without eating and feel just fine, but the moment I ate the above foods, I am dead meat.

Maybe I should be content, but once I start getting more healthy, I feel there is another threshold or barrier to cross, and I have to cross it. It is not a peak experience I'm looking for, but it's me asking "why not go for it?"

 

[tara]

Still, I know my kryptonite- snacks of pure carbohydrate, such as... potato chips

??? I haven't seen any potato chips that are pure carbohydrate. Not sure if you mean crisps or "fries", but either way most commercial ones are high PUFA, and the others are high SFA.

 

[yerrag]

??? I haven't seen any potato chips that are pure carbohydrate. Not sure if you mean crisps or "fries", but either way most commercial ones are high PUFA, and the others are high SFA.

Yes, they have fat in them, but they still are much more carbs than fat. The fats are negligible compared to carb content.

Deep fried food done right has few fats, and not soaking in oil. When the oil is hot enough, food thrown in to be deep-fried will cause their water content to boil, as the water comes out as vapor, it keeps the oil from penetrating the food. When the food is done and scooped up, it is hardly oily at all.

 

[tara]

I know that more of the fat drips off if they are properly fried in fat of suitable temperature, but hardly trivial none the less.
May not be perfectly accurate, but this link suggests nearly half the calories from fat. Even if it was half that much it would still not be trivial.

If they are PUFA-fried, then even just 100g chips busts the PUFA budget many of us strive for around here (promoting trouble in carb metabolism).
If SFA-fried, they may be fine food, but still not anything like pure carbs.

I eat chips sometimes, either home-baked in a bit of coconut oil, or bought ones cooked in beef fat. I love them, and I think they do me good. But I don't count the deep-fried ones as low fat/high carb food.

 

[yerrag]

Well, if the label says so, I couldn't argue against it being purely carbs, nor being negligible in fats. I should check again the nutrition labels in potato chips I get.

But my experience with potato chips is as I described it. It could stem from potato chips being low in protein, and could be why it still doesn't make me feel good after eating them. I'd eat them as add-ons to meat sandwiches or buns, but not by themselves.

 

[damngoodcoffee]

More than half of the calories coming from fat.

More than half of the calories coming from fat.

Half of the calories coming from fat.

 

[yerrag]

The label says it all. A high percentage of fat in potato chips. How does eating potato chips as a snack work out for you?

 

[damngoodcoffee]

I don't eat potato chips. I've been baking my potatoes without fat lately. Feels good so far! :)

 

[Westside PUFAs]

But my experience with potato chips is as I described it. It could stem from potato chips being low in protein, and could be why it still doesn't make me feel good after eating them. I'd eat them as add-ons to meat sandwiches or buns, but not by themselves.

What kind of meat do you eat in your sandwiches? And what kind of bread? Most bread has some weird stuff in it, including oil. Fried ≠ boiled/steamed. First because you take a great food like the potato and turn into a sponge for fat and as DGC pointed out, more calories from fat in chips. Second, the starch granules are the not same when fired vs. when boiled/steamed and that will reflect how you feel. I have to point you toward my default comment on this subject: "When people think "carbs" they think bread, pasta, cookies, cakes, crusty pies, pastries, doughnuts, muffins, pancakes, waffles, biscuits, noodles, crackers, chocolate, and ice cream. Yes, those foods do have carbs, from starchy flour and cane sugar. But, all of those foods are delivery systems for pufa oil and safa dairy. Fat. All of those foods (besides pasta and noodles, which are just flour by themselves) are made with lots of fat, in the form of vegetable oils, margarine, and/or butter. People call pizza and ice cream "carbs" when in reality pizza and ice cream have more calories coming from fat than they do carbs. Ice cream is pure cream which is pure fat. Not only does pizza have plenty of cheese on it, the dough is made with vegetable oil. Chocolate bars have more fat than sugar. And besides being cooked with oils, margarine, or butter, those foods are also almost always consumed with additional added fat as well because no one eats those flour products without any fat. People always add oils and cheese/butter to them. You are considered a weirdo if you eat such foods fat-free. So when one is eating those foods, they have to consider the calories from the fat portion of those foods."

The fat content completely changes the makeup of the meal. You can eat all of the fat you want. I don't care. All I'm saying is people sound really silly when they blame the starch and sugar in those foods for all of the problems in the western diet because they completely ignore all of the crazy amounts of fat that are being consumed simultaneously. So when people say "I love carbs...ohhh, gimme chocolate..." or "oh I can't have those bad carbs, donuts and bagels..." they should really say "I love fat, gimme chocolate.." and "oh I can't have those bad fats, donuts and bagels...including the globs of cream cheese I always add to the bagel..."

Then, the typical saturated fat lover looks at me and says "yuck, why would you eat potatoes with no butter?" Well, for many reasons. Or they try to make me look like the somehow memed into culture mythical late night TV diet ad screaming "don't eat those fats!," even though you can say the same about such ads saying the same thing about "carbs." It's all just misinformation and marketing. But I do think one of the biggest mistakes people make when getting into this "alternative" nutrition of the 2010's, "bio hacking" hipster millennial westernism, is the obsession with "saturated fat doesn't cause heart disease, therefore I can eat all of the butter, ice cream, and cheese that I want." I'm not saying it does cause heart disease because I don't think it's a primary factor in heart disease. I am saying however that it is a factor in body fat gain, blood sugar problems, gut health, and mood. So you see people all over net forums talking about how they smash in the safa, yet you'll see another thread by them where they are talking about how many problems they have.

 

[schultz]

Wow a 10oz bag of lays would have 45g of PUFA. That's like a months worth of PUFA!

 

[yerrag]

I don't recall Ray Peat saying saturated fats as being bad in the way PUFAs are. So, I'm surprised that you would link saturated fats with a host of health problems. Ray Peat may not like pork fat because he thinks pigs eat food that contain plenty of PUFAs and pork fat would contain plenty of PUFAs, but his aversion to pork fat is not tantamount to an aversion to saturated fat. Coconut oil is a saturated fat, but Ray likes it for many reasons.

I may start to eat potatoes now, seeing that it isn't as bad as what I thought it was, having come from the school of glycemic indexing and having potatoes deemed unhealthy from its high glycemic index. Now I can bring out my Fissler food mill from storage and start making mashed potatoes with it. I don't know if I'll want to eat it without accompaniments such as butter and sour cream, as I'm not used to eating it plain. I really think that I ought to enjoy what I eat, and if there's no healthful reason to keep me from enjoying my food, I wouldn't want to. And butter isn't unhealthful to eat.

I don't think in terms of low-fat, or low-carb. I laugh at this country that went crazy with low-fat and got bulding waistlines in return. I now laugh at low-carb because the country went the other way because low-fat made them fat, a tribal knee-jerk reaction. And I laugh at myself for believing that taking simple sugars is bad, only to learn that my healthy lifestyle of taking EFAs religiously only made be worse off in dealing with simple sugars. Just when I thought I had figured out a healthy lifestyle of eating, Ray Peat comes along and throws my comfort level off once again, and I have to relearn everything I once knew to be gospel truth.

I get that this forum is not where one comes to find straight answers from one or a few experts. There are a lot of opinions more than facts floating around. And that is fine with me. And I'm fine that I'm called out if I say something that is already dated information, or for being simply wrong. In fact, I appreciate that, as hard as it is for my ego. I just hope that I can come out from this forum with more facts than opinions, and better informed than confused.

Anyway, from this thread I'm thankful that I've learned that fiber isn't the simple answer to digestive health- a belief I had since childhood. I'm not quite ready to ditch fiber though, as I find brown rice suits me better than white rice, not in taste, but in terms of my blood sugar and insulin response. But now I won't be thinking someone is strange, or simply doesn't get it, if he says white rice suits him better health-wise. Maybe as I learn more from Ray Peat and this forum, my digestion and my body's metabolism of glucose will improve, such that I will eventually prefer white rice over brown. But maybe not, as I have yet to find out if it will harm me if I miss out on the b-vitamins that brown rice provides.

 

[ecstatichamster]

So you see people all over net forums talking about how they smash in the safa, yet you'll see another thread by them where they are talking about how many problems they have.

Honestly, most people here have a lot of health problems. Otherwise they wouldn't be here, would they?

But to your point, the other day a relative said, I can't eat much salt or I get bloated. I said, how's that. They said, when I eat junk food, the next day I feel bloated. Uhhhh...there is more to junk food than salt, LOL.

I had a bag of those Harvest coconut oil chips and they tasted awesome. But I am not going to buy them much. I have no control over my consumption of the perfect carb with the perfect satfat.

And now on to fiber, the topic of this thread. I am beginning to feel that carbs may trigger endotoxin headaches with me...and fiber included. I seem to do okay with carrot salad to a degree. And I need a lot of fruit fiber. But the other day I had spaghetti and grass fed ground-at-home-minutes-before-cooking beef sauce, and I've had a headache for a few days. It may be the aftermath of a nasty horrible bee sting that still hurts several days later, but it may also be from the pasta noodles.

This is an interesting find for me...psyllium was giving me headaches, and maybe some starches do too.