Is Ray Peat Wrong On Starches Or I Am Missing Something?

[Braveheart]

I think SIBO is more about a backed up gut than any particular food. Bacteria can't live anywhere in the intestine where there is no food. I think sibo develops because the walls of folks intestines get blowouts and pockets caked with undigested food residue. They also literally get gunk backed up from the colon, and it keeps getting higher and higher as they pile more junk in top. All this sludge is a perfect environment for bacteria to nest. It also will be leaking into the bloodstThis probably happens from eating too much/too often, and indigestible foods. If someone has an empty, pink, healthy gut, they can't have overgrowth, or growth at all.

I'd treat SIBO as a clogged plumbing problem. If you notice, almost all "SIBO" protocols are made up of low residue foods. I believe the low residue is what makes them work for some people, rather than the foods themselves.

I'd bet if folks megadosed cascara and magnesium with plenty of water for a week or so, they would see improvements in their SIBO with no changes to diet. Although their social life would suffer .

I think SIBO is more about a backed up gut than any particular food. Bacteria can't live anywhere in the intestine where there is no food. I think sibo develops because the walls of folks intestines get blowouts and pockets caked with undigested food residue. They also literally get gunk backed up from the colon, and it keeps getting higher and higher as they pile more junk in top. All this sludge is a perfect environment for bacteria to nest. It also will be leaking into the bloodstThis probably happens from eating too much/too often, and indigestible foods. If someone has an empty, pink, healthy gut, they can't have overgrowth, or growth at all.

I'd treat SIBO as a clogged plumbing problem. If you notice, almost all "SIBO" protocols are made up of low residue foods. I believe the low residue is what makes them work for some people, rather than the foods themselves.

I'd bet if folks megadosed cascara and magnesium with plenty of water for a week or so, they would see improvements in their SIBO with no changes to diet. Although their social life would suffer .

 

[Tenacity]

Starch lowers metabolic rate according to Peat.

That's not my experience. Nothing brings up temperature and pulse faster than a baked potato for me. The B vitamins in grains also seem to greatly complement the B vitamins in fruit, which is odd given the importance of niacinamide in Peat's writings.

 

[ecstatichamster]

That's not my experience. Nothing brings up temperature and pulse faster than a baked potato for me. The B vitamins in grains also seem to greatly complement the B vitamins in fruit, which is odd given the importance of niacinamide in Peat's writings.

I don't find starch helpful for my metabolism at all.

I do eat some but it doesn't do anything for me other than satisfy a craving for starch that fruit won't touch.

I hope someday to be on low/no starch.

 

[charlie]

I don't find starch helpful for my metabolism at all.

 

[Dobbler]

high fat cheese like parmigiano reggiano or cheddar + fruit / juice removes my starch cravings completely. I dont miss them at all. Potatoes make me feel like death and white rice taste like ***t. Other starch is not even worth a mention. I think its the high dairy fat that satiates in a similiar way to starch, but without the nasty side effects.

 

[damngoodcoffee]

white rice taste like **

White jasmin rice is damn good

 

[lollipop]

White jasmin rice is damn good

+1 Right after I cook it, when warm, I can seriously eat it plain! Not even any Salt. Such good flavor

 

[DaveFoster]

what is this mythical blood sugar spike so many speak of

I kid but kind of...I dunno what people imply by that...is it supposed to be a so called burst then crash? it seems to imply like a surge of energy initially...but supposedly one gets such thing when they have blood sugar usability issues, so how could they even get a surge in the first place...and why would a surge in blood sugar necessarily be bad...I mean I know supposedly its cause the blood wants a certain range of sugar, but people don't really indicate the implications of having more..id say basically it would create tonic pressure and the person would feel really tense, but dunno if that's ever happened to me in experience, or it doesn't manifest itself that way. In the past when I ate say just rice and maybe soy sauce or rice and hardly anything else it doesn't feel like a surge at all, a 'spike'. Its kind of sad or strange that literally hundreds, thousands of people (maybe more if you include the medical people) speak of insulin spikes and high blood sugar and all that in terms of energy rush and crash, cause it doesn't make sense, nor correlate with experience...are really so many so called experts simply not really paying attention? At least be honest..if people were honest I think theyd be led to a solution much quicker. Its not really a 'surge' at all but an obvious heaviness, at least in my case, so even if you had elevated blood sugar it doesn't mean its being utilized, so theres no rush and crash its just like hunger and low sugar feel followed by probably a proceeding heaviness...then you'd ask well why isn't it being used? It seems like that whole sugar sin meem kind of stuff...if you eat carbs it has to have the 'rush and crash' to imply like the person got some guilty initial benefit of it and is a glutton or like selfish for eating it and somehow deserved the 'punishment' of the crash...instead if you looked at it as though they never got the 'surge' to begin with and just were basically fiending for sugar, and despite eating it still couldn't satisfy the craving, a different picture emerges, as someone who basically needs help and a solution, not like a glutton who sinfully eats carbs...and because people buy into that you have thousands or tens or more then creating whole offshoots like low carb and paleo diet solutions and things.

anyways in that light I don't think it matters, other people might have different thoughts or experience I don't know for sure, but I don't think the carb source or type of sugar matters in terms of insulin spikes and all that its just can the person, I guess in their current status/state and whatever they ate, use that sugar? Though I think fructose might have additional benefits, after not eating starch for a while the last times I did, they were balanced fresh made and all, and didn't seem to have any real issues, but it just wasn't quite as satisfying as something that had fructose also, but other factors could have been at play...whether fructose has metabolic benefits I don't know but somehow it seems to have mood benefits, maybe it helps clear out more negative molecules or somehow signals more a good environment

I remember growing up id have empty calorie so to speak drinks and food, I was kind of not a huge, or sporadic big eater cause I was always occupied with something enjoyable, but perhaps that's why it didn't make as much a difference ...the empty calorie things, maybe it did subtely, but I suppose there is a factor, or maybe something that can help shore up deficiencies, in being actively engaged in enjoyable things, in terms of usability of sugar/carbs...supposedly physical excersize does this also, but again that can push the lactic acid thing amongst other. I wonder if pro athletes really drink Gatorade or if its all advertising..if they actually do that's kind of like archaic and probably not the best thing. On the commercial they show Gatorade being like some miracle concoction that helped the gators win a bowl game or something...but really if theyd just have drinkin OJ it would've been better, how can sugar water with maybe some citric acid and a pinch of salt be better than something with a broad range of nutrients

Pboy, why are you writing paragraphs? I lamented your return key as forever broken.

 

[BibleBeliever]

Has anyone on this forum ever experimented with an all potatoe diet?
I tried high potatoes before. At first they gave huge muscle pumps, deepend the voice greatly and felt wonderful. I always consumed them with butter and meat.
Eventually eating potatoes started to digest terrible and would cause extreme mental irritability. I also noticed they caused deposits in my muscles; like calcium crystals. Usually in the upper back and trap muscles. Stopping the potatoes and these deposits would go away every time; returning to potatoes and the same effect would always come back. Weston Price has an article on dangers of nightshades/potatoes: https://www.westonaprice.org/health-topics/food-features/nightshades/

I wonder if the key to digesting potatoes is have them as the primary food source with almost no others; maybe mixing them with other foods causes issues for many?
I wonder if anyone who had potatoe digesting difficulty; experimented with a solely potatoe diet and their body was able to digest them well after time. It would be curious if it's possible. An all potatoe diet would be extraordinarily cheap.
I know the tribe mentioned survives on them and many others do; so maybe quality or cooking methods is a big issue.

I would always make sure mine were fresh and peel the skins and cook as thoroughly as possible, but still even then the digestion issues would arise. It's too bad because the power they used to give was great. Even combining with an anti-endotoxin like horseradish doesn't suffice. Unless a diet high in fructose doesn't mix with potatoes; maybe you have to choose one or the other?
Yet in contrast there are no problems with white rice.

 

[Djukami]

At first they gave huge muscle pumps, deepend the voice greatly and felt wonderful.

Amazing. Potatoes increases my body hair length and makes it darker. I don't know what this means though. I feel hairier, which I don't really like.
When I was avoiding completely starches and eating only fruits, my body was actually loosing body hair and the color was more brownish.
But it's only potatoes. White rice doesn't do the same to me regarding hair length.

 

[tara]

I know the tribe mentioned survives on them and many others do; so maybe quality or cooking methods is a big issue.

Hi Jack, sorry, but I've just scanned back through the thread quickly to see which tribe and can't find it - can you remember which one it was? Thanks.

 

[BibleBeliever]

Hi Jack, sorry, but I've just scanned back through the thread quickly to see which tribe and can't find it - can you remember which one it was? Thanks.

Didn't mention a specific tribe in the op:
"Yes, people in New Guinea who eat nothing but potatoes for 51 weeks of the year (and pork the other week) have been studied and found to be healthy with no signs of protein deficiency."

However searching I found this:
Nutritional status of Papua New Guinea highlanders.

Nutritional status of Papua New Guinea highlanders. - PubMed - NCBI

Seems to be the people spoken of as it states this: "These results are probably exceptionally high, because the survey was unfortunately held during the yearly festival season of the village when the people often ate fatty port. "

Much lower protein than expected though.

From this site: https://www.paleohacks.com/potato/what-sweet-potatoes-were-the-kitavans-eating-22239

They are called the Kitavans

This study also discusses them: A pilot study on protein metabolism in the Papua New Guinea highlanders. - PubMed - NCBI

 

[BibleBeliever]

Amazing. Potatoes increases my body hair length and makes it darker. I don't know what this means though. I feel hairier, which I don't really like.
When I was avoiding completely starches and eating only fruits, my body was actually loosing body hair and the color was more brownish.
But it's only potatoes. White rice doesn't do the same to me regarding hair length.

I think that is caused by increased DHT, the most potent form of testosterone, which increases hair growth. On anabolicmen ( https://www.anabolicmen.com/carbohydrates-testosterone/) they reference studies that high-carb diets are known to boost testosterone. Potatoes are also very high in the b-vitamins, but especially b6, amongst their other nutrients, which might be differing factor of benefit vs white rice. As white rice basically has no nutrients, just energy.
If only there was a key to guaranteeing superior potatoe digestion; I would heartily embrace them again.

 

[Djukami]

I think that is caused by increased DHT, the most potent form of testosterone, which increases hair growth. On anabolicmen ( https://www.anabolicmen.com/carbohydrates-testosterone/) they reference studies that high-carb diets are known to boost testosterone. Potatoes are also very high in the b-vitamins, but especially b6, amongst their other nutrients, which might be differing factor of benefit vs white rice. As white rice basically has no nutrients, just energy.
If only there was a key to guaranteeing superior potatoe digestion; I would heartily embrace them again.

I was actually thinking it could be an increase of estrogen, then the body, to compensate that increase, it also increases testosterone.
Dairy also makes me hairier and unlike potatoes it gives huge muscle pumps, like potatoes do to you (I think it's simply water retention in my case though. Still, they increase volume which appear bigger). And better, dairy increases my libido in a form that any other animal protein can do. It's unexplainable. Every time I experiment eating dairy, all of a sudden, women seem so damn beautiful and perfect. Also, lots of sexual thoughts start to appear. But then again, I think it's simply the increase of estrogen and then testosterone has to compensate that increase... I compare it to alcohol.

Btw, what do you mean by mental irritability? Do you mean brain fog or something like that? When I was trying a potato diet, I indeed suffer from that. I felt really really dumb. I would have to read a sentence several times to understand it and my short memory was also pretty garbage. Again, blaming only potatoes is simplyfying it too much, because I don't really know what is going on inside my blood. It could be thicker or some mineral imbalances, endotoxins, etc etc. So many things that could be happening that I can't know.

 

[tara]

Didn't mention a specific tribe in the op:
"Yes, people in New Guinea who eat nothing but potatoes for 51 weeks of the year (and pork the other week) have been studied and found to be healthy with no signs of protein deficiency."

Thanks. I think Peat might have been simplifying for the purpose of focusing on protein content.

The Papua Niue Guineans seem to be eating mostly sweet potatoes, taro and yam (and a bit of greens and the odd other food), not ordinary (nightshade) potatoes.
Same with that kitavans, along with their fish etc.

Was your personal experience with ordinary potatoes (nightshades), or with some of those other roots and tubers too?

I could imagine that even people who seem to have no particular difficulty with including potatoes as a normal part of their diet might get trouble with nightshade issues if it was their sole food?
I also suspect there may be a risk of not getting enough of a range a range of different forms of minerals, eg calcium, from too limited a mono diet for too long?

 

[BibleBeliever]

I was actually thinking it could be an increase of estrogen, then the body, to compensate that increase, it also increases testosterone.
Dairy also makes me hairier and unlike potatoes it gives huge muscle pumps, like potatoes do to you (I think it's simply water retention in my case though. Still, they increase volume which appear bigger). And better, dairy increases my libido in a form that any other animal protein can do. It's unexplainable. Every time I experiment eating dairy, all of a sudden, women seem so damn beautiful and perfect. Also, lots of sexual thoughts start to appear. But then again, I think it's simply the increase of estrogen and then testosterone has to compensate that increase... I compare it to alcohol.

Btw, what do you mean by mental irritability? Do you mean brain fog or something like that? When I was trying a potato diet, I indeed suffer from that. I felt really really dumb. I would have to read a sentence several times to understand it and my short memory was also pretty garbage. Again, blaming only potatoes is simplyfying it too much, because I don't really know what is going on inside my blood. It could be thicker or some mineral imbalances, endotoxins, etc etc. So many things that could be happening that I can't know.

Interesting premise. I have heard that because the cows are overmilked that estrogen is very high in milk. In contrast milking processes of old would give the cow a break and provide better milk. Some say the plastics milked are stored in also contributes.

I found the mental irritability to be thinking very aggressive; easily angered, agitated. Thoughts of negativity; lacking hope, pessimistic and sometimes to great extremes. This would usually be in conjunction to feeling bloated by potatoes and sub-par movements. The poor digestion of potatoes I'm certain would greatly increase endotoxins. Every time they are removed all these effects would go away.

 

[BibleBeliever]

Thanks. I think Peat might have been simplifying for the purpose of focusing on protein content.

The Papua Niue Guineans seem to be eating mostly sweet potatoes, taro and yam (and a bit of greens and the odd other food), not ordinary (nightshade) potatoes.
Same with that kitavans, along with their fish etc.

Was your personal experience with ordinary potatoes (nightshades), or with some of those other roots and tubers too?

I could imagine that even people who seem to have no particular difficulty with including potatoes as a normal part of their diet might get trouble with nightshade issues if it was their sole food?
I also suspect there may be a risk of not getting enough of a range a range of different forms of minerals, eg calcium, from too limited a mono diet for too long?

Mine was with ordinary potatoes. Although I have heard claims that standard potatoes are exceedingly high in pesticides. I tried sweet potatoes a few times with worse results, I assume from the high beta-carotene.

I have heard theories that of body adaption to certain foods when they are limited. Some say you have to fast first (anti-Peat I know) and then when it becomes the staple the body will eventually adapt.
Historically it has been the staple for many, but I wonder if they prepared it any differently to assist in digestion.

Yeah I was looking; calcium, selenium and the vitamin a and b12 that Peat mentions would be low with potatoes. Although interestingly based on that WestonPrice article the calcitriol may make up for the calcium; they warn of hypercalcium from nightshades due to it. However if consumed without high calcium, maybe it would balance itself out.

Do you have good experiences with potatoes at all?

 

[tara]

Mine was with ordinary potatoes. Although I have heard claims that standard potatoes are exceedingly high in pesticides. I tried sweet potatoes a few times with worse results, I assume from the high beta-carotene.

Yeah, I like sweet potatoes, but I can only eat a little of them, I assume for that reason.

I have heard theories that of body adaption to certain foods when they are limited. Some say you have to fast first (anti-Peat I know) and then when it becomes the staple the body will eventually adapt.

I expect it's easier to adapt if one starts from strong strong health to begin with. If there are significant system weaknesses, that might be harder. Some people really do seem to be vulnerable to nightshades, and some people seem to have digestive trouble with starches, maybe due to microbiome balance or gut damage.

Personally, I resumed eating more potatoes over the last while, and I think they serve me well. My digestion seems to be happy with them. But when I was eating a couple of servings a week instead of one or two a day, I typically got [TMI alert:] spud scented gas. Now I don't think I do. (Though maybe an objective observer would say different. :))
I don't eat them alone, though. Mashed with a little butter and milk, or oven-baked chips in coconut oil (not very much oil), or boiled pieces of potatoes eaten with stew and cooked veges or poached egg or something. When I boil spuds I use the cooking water in soups to get the benefit of leached minerals. Occasionally baked or microwaved spud with butter (microwave is the quickest way to get a meal in a hurry). Every now and then I get sick of them, and want something else instead. I also eat other roots/tubers from time to time for variety - sweet potatoes, taro etc, and sometimes rice, or oat porridge, or long-leavened wheat bread. But I probably eat spuds for more meals than any of the others, and definitely feel like I do better if I eat more of the roots than the grains, at least for now.

I seldom feel obvious digestive trouble. I used to years ago, back when I thought that the more fibre, raw veges and whole grains the better.

Historically it has been the staple for many, but I wonder if they prepared it any differently to assist in digestion.

Yes, a stable. But still probably not a complete monodiet where possible. I would expect that in places where potatoes were the main source of calories/carbs and maybe protein too, it would probably have been common to have some greens/herbs growing nearby, and any available meat/dairy would have been taken as a bonus when one could get it.

 

[Djukami]

Interesting premise. I have heard that because the cows are overmilked that estrogen is very high in milk. In contrast milking processes of old would give the cow a break and provide better milk. Some say the plastics milked are stored in also contributes.

I found the mental irritability to be thinking very aggressive; easily angered, agitated. Thoughts of negativity; lacking hope, pessimistic and sometimes to great extremes. This would usually be in conjunction to feeling bloated by potatoes and sub-par movements. The poor digestion of potatoes I'm certain would greatly increase endotoxins. Every time they are removed all these effects would go away.

But, if it is indeed estrogen, shouldn't I have the same reaction drinking soy milk? I could test this, but I am not really curious to test it right now though, lol. Nevertheless, perhaps milk would still have much more estrogen comparing to soy milk...?

Even if you eat them in small quantities, do you still have all those side effects? I've noticed if I don't overdo on them, I kinda 'tolerate' them. I mean, I still have the symptoms, but they are not so strong...

 

[brigadierbarty]

Starch lowers metabolic rate according to Peat.

Where has he said that?

Has anyone on this forum ever experimented with an all potatoe diet?
I tried high potatoes before. At first they gave huge muscle pumps, deepend the voice greatly and felt wonderful. I always consumed them with butter and meat.
Eventually eating potatoes started to digest terrible and would cause extreme mental irritability. I also noticed they caused deposits in my muscles; like calcium crystals. Usually in the upper back and trap muscles. Stopping the potatoes and these deposits would go away every time; returning to potatoes and the same effect would always come back. Weston Price has an article on dangers of nightshades/potatoes: https://www.westonaprice.org/health-topics/food-features/nightshades/

How long did it take for the muscle problems to start and stop? Was it pain or weakness or something else? Sounds like it could be oxalate. See my recent thread where OJ caused the same problem for me, I believe because of the vitamin C (which is metabolized to oxalate). Did you have this problem with peeled potatoes?