Gallstones

[managing]

To my surprise, I've started passing gallstones.

At first it was in response to apple cider vinegar/baking soda (ie, sodium acetate).

Then I did the 4 day pine gum spirits (aka turpentine, but NOT "paint thinner"). It continued with this but not necessarily at a higher rate.

I've continued to use acv/baking soda and continue to see them. They've been about the size of a black bean to the size of a lima bean. Most have been brown pigmented gallstones. But at least one was a black pigmented gallstone.

So, questions.

Any insight, particularly from an RP perspective, what might cause them?

Obviously, the ACV/baking soda seems to be causing them to pass. But other ideas on eliminating them fully?

And, most important, how to prevent them from returning?

 

[Diokine]

I think we can predominately think of this as a fatigue of adrenergic activity in the pertinent tissues. Specifically lack of response to stimulus by beta adrenoreceptors in the gallbladder and liver. This does not allow the gallbladder to contract and relax appropriately, and generally causes a protracted state of tension. It's also important to distinguish between fatigue in the tissue itself, and inappropriate or inadequate signals from the nerves supplying the tissues. What causes the fatigue?

Generalized adaptation to chronic stress, resultant hypothyroidism, and "high serotonin/low dopamine" are some of the major factors. High levels of parathyroid and high serum calcium also contribute. There is almost always some degree of viral interference leading to excessive activity of the cholinergic nervous system. Low-grade bacteriosis generally accompanies this adrenergic fatigue and can contribute.

Some things that may be therapeutic;

-Smaller, tastier meals. If your food isn't stimulating your stomach when you eat it's probably not being digested well. Orchestration of gastric hormones is not optional when it comes to maintaining the sensitivity of these tissues.

-A minor degree of iodine supplementation may be helpful in maintaining adrenergic sensitivity, along with thyroid hormone or methylene blue, or moderate levels of ascorbic acid supplementation. Do research on why this may be helpful.

-Proper, restful sleep is not optional.

-Breathing exercises and yoga/postural work, along with foam rolling of the thoracic spine can be extremely helpful in coordinating nervous activity.

-Taurine may be helpful in small doses (500mg,) with meals.

-Dandelion root tea.

-Occasional liver consumption or desiccated liver powder, contains catecholamine derived metabolites which can be very sensitizing.

-Sufficient intake of choline, thiamine, vitamins AD&E.

 

[managing]

I think we can predominately think of this as a fatigue of adrenergic activity in the pertinent tissues. Specifically lack of response to stimulus by beta adrenoreceptors in the gallbladder and liver. This does not allow the gallbladder to contract and relax appropriately, and generally causes a protracted state of tension. It's also important to distinguish between fatigue in the tissue itself, and inappropriate or inadequate signals from the nerves supplying the tissues. What causes the fatigue?

Generalized adaptation to chronic stress, resultant hypothyroidism, and "high serotonin/low dopamine" are some of the major factors. High levels of parathyroid and high serum calcium also contribute. There is almost always some degree of viral interference leading to excessive activity of the cholinergic nervous system. Low-grade bacteriosis generally accompanies this adrenergic fatigue and can contribute.

Some things that may be therapeutic;

-Smaller, tastier meals. If your food isn't stimulating your stomach when you eat it's probably not being digested well. Orchestration of gastric hormones is not optional when it comes to maintaining the sensitivity of these tissues.

-A minor degree of iodine supplementation may be helpful in maintaining adrenergic sensitivity, along with thyroid hormone or methylene blue, or moderate levels of ascorbic acid supplementation. Do research on why this may be helpful.

-Proper, restful sleep is not optional.

-Breathing exercises and yoga/postural work, along with foam rolling of the thoracic spine can be extremely helpful in coordinating nervous activity.

-Taurine may be helpful in small doses (500mg,) with meals.

-Dandelion root tea.

-Occasional liver consumption or desiccated liver powder, contains catecholamine derived metabolites which can be very sensitizing.

-Sufficient intake of choline, thiamine, vitamins AD&E.

Wow. Thanks. That is a lot to chew on. I may come back with questions.

Only thought at this moment is that sleep was very good before I started passing these. Now I am waking up about about 5 hrs. I am somewhat successful in getting back to sleep with a little sugar.

 

[managing]

Started Taurine yesterday. Slept better. Developed an ache in my bladder this morning. Not really pain, just an ache. No urinary disruption or anything. Will continue with taurine for now. Slept much better last night too.

EDIT: I should add a dull ache in my lower back and left hip too. I assume this is associated with the dull ache in bladder.

I know taurine has (positive) effects on kidneys. Can't find much info on any effects on bladder.

 

[dbh25]

Have you done a liver flush?

 

[managing]

Have you done a liver flush?

That depends on what you mean. But if you aren't counting acv/baking soda and gum spirits, then no.

 

[dbh25]

I am not familiar with acv/baking soda and gum spirits. I am curious about the protocol.
With the Moritz flush, you drink 1L of apple juice per day for 6 days, followed by olive oil and epsom salt. Lots of debate if what is passed are actual stones.

 

[managing]

I am not familiar with acv/baking soda and gum spirits. I am curious about the protocol.
With the Moritz flush, you drink 1L of apple juice per day for 6 days, followed by olive oil and epsom salt. Lots of debate if what is passed are actual stones.

I'll look into it.

FWIW, I am 100% certain that what I've passed are stones. Google image search brings up lots of images and they just aren't ambiguous looking, IMO.

 

[managing]

I am not familiar with acv/baking soda and gum spirits. I am curious about the protocol.
With the Moritz flush, you drink 1L of apple juice per day for 6 days, followed by olive oil and epsom salt. Lots of debate if what is passed are actual stones.

Did a quick primer on this.

One thing that jumps out at me is that the ACV is high in acetic acid and other similar weak carboxylic acids. His protocol calls for malic acid to soften stones. Both are weak carboxylic acids. Thus, if malic softens stones and makes them easier to pass, acetic ought to do about the same.

I have looked at the photos and have no doubts that those are gallstones being removed by the Moritz protocol. I question however whether it is advisable to go through such a stressful process to remove them all at once if you can continue removing them slowly.

 

[dbh25]

Acv/baking soda sounds like a better method. The stones I had were green or tan colored.

 

[dbh25]

Different Kinds of Stones that are Released in the Liver Flush - Ener-Chi Wellness Center
Many stones originate from the bile ducts in the liver and these tend to be dark green ones. Very dark green and black stones are very old stones.

However, the beige or whitish stones, which are harder and more dense, may either be semi-calcified stones, are surrounded by a sort of crust that has a yellowish-white, or tan color to it. But when they are semi-calcified, they come from the gallbladder.

 

[managing]

Started Taurine yesterday. Slept better. Developed an ache in my bladder this morning. Not really pain, just an ache. No urinary disruption or anything. Will continue with taurine for now. Slept much better last night too.

EDIT: I should add a dull ache in my lower back and left hip too. I assume this is associated with the dull ache in bladder.

I know taurine has (positive) effects on kidneys. Can't find much info on any effects on bladder.

I am now thinking this is kidney pain, not bladder. Today it feels more left sided, and it was my left hip all along.

Stopped the taurine. Anything about taurine that would cause kidney pain? Was about 500mg 30min before meal.

 

[managing]

I am now thinking this is kidney pain, not bladder. Today it feels more left sided, and it was my left hip all along.

Stopped the taurine. Anything about taurine that would cause kidney pain? Was about 500mg 30min before meal.

I think it was actually because I was using Vit D w/o A and K. Have started A and k again. WIll add taurine again and see if returns.

 

[ddjd]

ACV/baking soda

Do you think the combo of baking soda and acv is much more effective than just baking soda alone?

 

[Collden]

To my surprise, I've started passing gallstones.

At first it was in response to apple cider vinegar/baking soda (ie, sodium acetate).

Then I did the 4 day pine gum spirits (aka turpentine, but NOT "paint thinner"). It continued with this but not necessarily at a higher rate.

I've continued to use acv/baking soda and continue to see them. They've been about the size of a black bean to the size of a lima bean. Most have been brown pigmented gallstones. But at least one was a black pigmented gallstone.

So, questions.

Any insight, particularly from an RP perspective, what might cause them?

Obviously, the ACV/baking soda seems to be causing them to pass. But other ideas on eliminating them fully?

And, most important, how to prevent them from returning?

Whats your diet like? If its low in fiber I'd definitely get more of that, especially soluble fiber from legumes, fruits and vegetables. Gallstones are caused by biliary sludge that results when there is insufficient turnover of bile, soluble fiber enhances the turnover of bile by promoting its excretion.

 

[managing]

Do you think the combo of baking soda and acv is much more effective than just baking soda alone?

Yes. In fact, the baking soda is nice effect metabilically, but I think its mainly the ACV having an effect on the gallstones.

 

[ddjd]

Yes. In fact, the baking soda is nice effect metabilically, but I think its mainly the ACV having an effect on the gallstones.

But isn't the whole point the acidity of the acv, i.e. the acetic acid. The bicarb completely neutralises the acid

 

[managing]

But isn't the whole point the acidity of the acv, i.e. the acetic acid. The bicarb completely neutralises the acid

Only in stoichiometrically matching amounts.

I don't actually use the baking soda anymore. But I don't notice significantly different effects either way.

There is also the bacterial culture of the ACV playing a factor.

And, it might be the acetate ion, rather than the pH of the mixture that does the trick. The acetate content doesn't change just because it was salted. The HCL in stomach would presumably ionize it again instantly. Acetate ought to directly participate in oxidative respiration.

And, finally, some ACV's have small amounts of glucuronic acid. Even reacted (ie, -glucuronate) it should have insulin sensitizing and blood sugar regulating effects.

These are known actions. But ionized -acetate passing into the duodenum would presumably affect the gall bladder, if any effect is expected.

 

[Fractality]

How much ACV and baking soda would you mix and drink? Before or with food?

 

[managing]

How much ACV and baking soda would you mix and drink? Before or with food?

I drink it right before a meal. The idea is that the ACV softens bile and stimulates it to flow. The baking soda is a bonus in that the acetate is metabolized into CO2.

I now use Mg Carbonate with it before bed.

As for ratio, about 1/2T ACV: 1/4t Baking soda is good.