Instant Potatoes

pboy

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http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/veg ... cts/2567/2

Instant Potatoes (They are Peeled, Cooked, Mashed, Dehydrated)

What do you guys think? They are actually highly nutritious, extremely fast, convenient and cheap, no PUFA, and if you make them watery you can almost drink them, or add milk/cheese/coconut/salt. They have fiber but its only the inner potato fiber, almost unnoticeable, very small amount and doesn't seem to cause any irritation. Would the fiber itself be the only concern? They even have a respectable amount of choline and selenium surprisingly
 

cliff

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Seems fine to me. The main problem would probably be the fact that most aren't organic so they might have pesticide residue.
 

Dean

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Hmmm...This is interesting. Does anyone have any idea or guess as to how the digestibility of the starch in these would be different than in a well cooked mashed potato? More, less, no different? I wonder if there would be a way to seperate out some of the starch from these?
 

pboy

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Dean said:
Hmmm...This is interesting. Does anyone have any idea or guess as to how the digestibility of the starch in these would be different than in a well cooked mashed potato? More, less, no different? I wonder if there would be a way to seperate out some of the starch from these?

I just ate some and they seem pretty comparable to fresh potatoes in terms of digestibility as long as they don't dry out (very little detectable fiber).

I was thinking the same thing about the juice, you could probably hydrate them with warm water then squeeze through a cheesecloth and I bet it would work...don't have one to try it atm
 

narouz

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Peat often has a problem with dehydrated foods.
Sometimes--I'm trying to remember what food it was, but can't--
he says that the heat and dehydration process makes foods allergenic, as I recall.

When I was a teen I used to eat instant potatoes and really liked them.
They had a little bit of a slightly funky taste, but still...very tasty
(with a lot of butter, of course; and I think I also put nutritional yeast on them--
another not-very-good food from a Peat view).

Nowadays, beyond the dehydration angle,
I would not want to eat a lot of them
for the same reason (and more) I don't eat a lot of potatoes: starch.
Also, because it is the liquid portion that is evaporated away,
and because the protein is in the that liquid,
I wonder how much of the protein remains.
And I wonder if that protein is intact.
Peat talks about proteins being susceptable to degradation through excess or improper cooking--
as with the protein in bone broths.
And--I could be wrong about this--seems like to me
he has said that protein powders are mostly kinduv bad
because of the way they are processed--heat, evaporation.

On the other hand, Peat seems to thoroughly approve of the protein in gelatin,
and I have to think that stuff has been subjected to some pretty hardcore evaporation/heating.

I wonder how long instant potatoes should be cooked from a Peat perspective.
He says (fresh) potatoes should be cooked at least 40 minutes.
Would we assume that in processing
the instant potatoes have already been cooked at least that long?

Does the label say how much protein there is in a serving?
 

pboy

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I posted a link to the nutrition info above...they seem to be almost the same as regular potatoes just a little less fiber (about 2g protein per 90 cal, or a small potato)

They are already fully cooked and just need to be reheated basically to hydrate and warm them to make them palatable. No idea if the quality or absorbability of nutrients
is altered though.
They gave me good energy and no reaction so Im guessing theres definatley some value at least (I had them with salt and a sweet coffee that was it) They were just plain organic potato flakes with sea salt. Probably not ideal but at least they are a good backup plan and might be an interesting way to derive potato juice
 

Dean

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Color me intrigued on the potato juice front as well, pboy. At first glance, it would seem like an easier, more convenient way to try potato juice without buying a juicer, peeling potatoes, juicing and cooking them on a daily basis. Not knowing though, the process that gets those potatoes to the box is cause for some caution, I guess.

Considering how long Dr. Peat always advises cooking starches without any caveat about denaturing the protein in potatoes he is so high on, it would seem unlikely that would be an issue. But, who knows what all is involved in the processing process. I may give it a try.
 

Isadora

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I love instant potatoes -- I use milk, butter and cream when I hydrate them. Salt and pepper, sometimes dill for flavor. Or garlic powder. They have them organic, too. I have eaten them several times a week since I've been on this diet...

But you are such perfectionists! Eliminating starch like it is the work of the devil? :) I don't go to such lengths, life should be easy.
 

narouz

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Isadora said:
I love instant potatoes -- I use milk, butter and cream when I hydrate them. Salt and pepper, sometimes dill for flavor. Or garlic powder. They have them organic, too. I have eaten them several times a week since I've been on this diet...

But you are such perfectionists! Eliminating starch like it is the work of the devil? :) I don't go to such lengths, life should be easy.

Well, Peat wouldn't say that starch is the work of the devil,
but he did say this (among many other negative comments about starch):

From "Glycemia, Starch, and Sugar in Context" by Dr. Ray Peat:

“Eating 'complex carbohydrates,' rather than sugars, is a reasonable way to promote obesity. Eating starch, by increasing insulin and lowering the blood sugar, stimulates the appetite, causing a person to eat more, so the effect on fat production becomes much larger than when equal amounts of sugar and starch are eaten. The obesity itself then becomes an additional physiological factor; the fat cells create something analogous to an inflammatory state. There isn’t anything wrong with a high carbohydrate diet, and even a high starch diet isn’t necessarily incompatible with good health, but when better foods are available they should be used instead of starches.

I don't think I've ever read Dr. Peat say that
the healthiness of a diet can be judged by how easy it is.

I don't think I've ever read him say that
eating his recommended foods
and staying away from the ones he discourages
will be easy.

Personally, I do not find it an easy diet
although it does seem to get easier after a while.

Of course the general question of
how strictly one must stay within the guidelines of Peat's recommendations
in order to experience health benefits...
or how many health benefits one is prepared to trade-off
for being able to have an "easy" diet vs. a Peatian one...
those are difficult questions to answer with precision and certainty.
 

Isadora

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narouz said:
Personally, I do not find it an easy diet
although it does seem to get easier after a while.

I actually do...

I came from low carb paleo, and I will always remember the moment I unloaded my chariot at the supermarket when getting ready to jump into the Peat thing: all those oranges, and fresh squeezed juices, and the white milk, and cheeses, the potatoes -- all those goodies I was suddenly "allowed" to enjoy made me so dizzy with anticipation and it all became suddenly such a no-brainer! Of course it made sense.

narouz, I see a coherence to it that goes beyond what I read about those things... I see the colors and the beautiful textures: lots of white -- the milk, some cheeses, the egg whites, the coconut butter, then the orange of the oranges and orange juices, the orange/white of the eggs, the pale brownish yellow of hard cheeses and potatoes and gelatin and the red of the meat, it is truly harmonious and coherent and it speaks to me (I salivate as I think about them). And I never get tired of any of those. I never could, I don't think. That's my only question -- should I add more stuff, aim for more variety? I don't need anything else. Just rotating these is fine and quite easy. I also drink red wine, preferably without sulfites, with red meat. I see it more like a food, actually, it completes the meat-potatoes combo. I also like it with cheese.

All this is pretty "impressionistic", you will probably think. And so did I. But when I started on the first day, using Cronometer, and saw how beautifully those nutrient slots were filling up and how simply, and how difficult it would be to reach such harmony with other foods, I became a believer...

Besides, I'd rather be reading or watching a good show than cooking, extracting starches and doing other time-consuming and potentially annoying tasks for a marginal benefit. I don't even need Cronometer anymore, I got the idea... Or so I hope :)
 

Dean

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Isadora, I appreciate your gentle chiding about making things more difficult or strict than necessary. I am going back and forth on this in my mind all the time as I try this for a second time. Narouz is correct, however, in continuously pointing out that Dr. Peat's "support" for starch is very far from unequivocal.

How one approaches "Peating" I think has alot to do with the nature of that person's personality, but also on what state of health one comes to it in. Some people are tweaking. Some are experimenting. Some also have long standing physical and/or mental issues (chronic and acute) that have been exasperated by years of following the conventional advice or prevailing passing fads.

As for me, I've had life-long gut and brain issues. After just returning from a year in SE Asia that really exposed my digestive weaknesses and vulnerabilities, my gut is in pretty bad shape at the moment. So, I guess my hyper-leeriness of starch or even fiber (beyond the carrot/bamboo shoots) comes out of a desire, even necessity, to get myself heading in the right direction as soon as possible.

If I am still "Peating" in five years, I can't imagine that I wouldn't be eating whole fruit--or potatoes, for that matter. (much less trying to figure out how to squeeze the juice out of dehydrated potato flakes...lol)
 

pboy

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In case anyone cares...I passed the instant potatoes effortlessly this morning with no stench or gas at all...so I don't know, they gave me good energy, are listed as
having good nutrition, and passed quickly and without residue. Hurray... still I think orange juice tastes better but the potatoes are an excellent/near equivalent backup to me at least. (The only downside is that I can easily drink 300 calories of OJ in like 15 minutes but to eat 300 calories of potatoes I'd have to sit for at least twice that long, and clean a dish or two)
 

Dean

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Cool...thanks for the report, pboy. If you aren't avoiding starches, I don't see any reason why you couldn't keep using them. If nothing else, it's there when you need something quick and want something savory.
 

narouz

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Dean said:
How one approaches "Peating" I think has alot to do with the nature of that person's personality, but also on what state of health one comes to it in. Some people are tweaking. Some are experimenting. Some also have long standing physical and/or mental issues (chronic and acute) that have been exasperated by years of following the conventional advice or prevailing passing fads.

True, Dean.
My perspective is to want to bring a little rigor and science to defining what in meant by "Peating."
That wouldn't seem to me to be so far-fetched,
given that Peat himself is very scientific.

If the term "Peating" is to have any value
beyond us just forming a club to identify and associate ourselves with Peat,
then it would be a good idea to define what "Peating" is.

Thus my fussiness about starch, potatoes, instant potatoes, etc.
It is a highly contested area within PeatDom.

My preference would be to spell out as clearly and faithfully as possible
what Peat says are GOOD foods or THE BEST foods.
Then we might also decide what foods Peat would call "OKAY" or "SAFE BUT IF BETTER FOODS ARE AVAILABLE EAT THEM" or something along those lines.

I don't think it is wise or faithful to Peat
to Start by lumping all those food categories above together
and rubber stamping them as "Good Peat Food."

Rather, I would argue to Start by identifying the Good or Best Peat foods.
Then, if you stayed within that diet for like a year,
and you didn't see good benefits...
well, then you would have some scientific basis to think that the Peat diet didn't work for you.

On the other hand,
if you eat a "Peat Diet" consisting mainly of instant potatoes for about a year
and then you don't see health benefits...
could you really say that a (real) Peat diet did not work?

As you say, Dean, some people just want to dabble in "Peating."
Some people want to only do a Peat diet to the extent that it is "easy."
Fine.
But should those people's conceptions of what constitutes a Peat diet
be the best guide to defining an accurate, faithful Peat diet.
I don't think so.

I guess this will sound grouchy and anal, but...oh well. :)
 

Dean

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As someone who can be a grouch and described as anal at times, I agree with what you are saying Narouz and truly do appreciate your vigilance in interjecting Peat's starch caveats wherever necessary. I do think there is a proclivity among many Peat enthusiasts to conveniently place starch on the same pedestal as milk/oj/etc.

At the same time, I am curious to see how people do with more reliance on starch or even root vegetables. I also like to know where they are coming from in terms of expectations and their present health, especially in terms of their level of satisfaction with it. This helps me put their approach/experience into a perspective that may be useful to me at some point.

Also, keeping starches may be the best or even only way, many people (perhaps even me, eventually) short or long term can stick with the most universally beneficial aspects of Peating (PUFA, gluten avoidance). That may be enough for many people. Others may drop starches later if they feel they aren't getting as far as they'd like.

Lastly, even Dr. Peat himself, doesn't follow his own recommendations optimally, at least not anymore. He eats meat on a daily basis, for example. So, I think there is something to be said for keeping your approach as open-minded as possible, or at least setting your sights on a day when you will be able to be more open-minded in your approach to your daily diet.
 

Isadora

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Sorry, Dean, I didn't realize you were starch-intolerant...

But why insist on having those potato proteins? Is there something particularly awesome in their combination? Since they aren't even the best food choice out there, why bother?

Otherwise, one or half a day, with lots of dairy on top, couldn't hurt those who can tolerate it and aren't looking to lose weight.

Of course personal circumstances are everything...

When I first started, Cronometer was recommending 1600 calories/day to keep my weight as it was. I discovered that those were easily surpassed once I was trying to match the quantities I had read about -- quarts and quarts of juice and (even fat free) milk... So I had to adjust those quantities and to take it from there. I aimed at a 50% carbohydrate, 20% protein and 30% fat ratio and adjusted as I went along.

When I started progest-e, everything became weird, I felt like an alien had taken control of my body, it was like one of those movies when you watch a creature crawling under your skin... Dramatic, really. Now I lost those 4 extra pounds, but I am also eyeing Progest-E with some dread...

I don't think I managed to accelerate my metabolism a whole lot, but I do feel less cold and more energetic. My basal temperature is still pathetic, but I am euthyroidian and doctors here don't want to prescribe anything, although my TSH is high and my Anti-TPO in the hundreds... So I sneakingly ordered Cynomel and Cynoplus from the mexicandrugstore.com, I hope they'll arrive... I can't wait to try them.

I started using kettlebells, moderately, to encourage muscle building.

I don't know, to me all this is a huge change. Maybe not hard core Peatarian, but hey, so far, so good.
 

narouz

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Dean said:
At the same time, I am curious to see how people do with more reliance on starch or even root vegetables. I also like to know where they are coming from in terms of expectations and their present health, especially in terms of their level of satisfaction with it. This helps me put their approach/experience into a perspective that may be useful to me at some point.

Well, after all, Peat does say:

There isn’t anything wrong with a high carbohydrate diet, and even a high starch diet isn’t necessarily incompatible with good health, but when better foods are available they should be used instead of starches.”-Ray Peat

You do get the feeling, though--don't you?--that he is straining his limits when he says
"even a high starch diet isn’t necessarily incompatible with good health."
Like he's going: "Okay...it's not impossible."
So I am just stipulating for the record on the Instant Potatoes thing:
it's a borderline food in PeatLand, in my opinion.
I don't think Peat would be crazy about a whole lot of even fresh potatoes.
And I wouldn't be surprised if he had more objections about the instant.
As an experiment: experiments are valuable.
They are often valuable when they fail to produce the result expected.

Dean said:
Also, keeping starches may be the best or even only way, many people (perhaps even me, eventually) short or long term can stick with the most universally beneficial aspects of Peating (PUFA, gluten avoidance). That may be enough for many people. Others may drop starches later if they feel they aren't getting as far as they'd like.

Are you saying that many will struggle to stay on a strict (true/faithful) Peat diet?
Is this because of cost?
Because it doesn't satisfy appetites?
(I agree; I guess I'm just surprised anyone agrees with me on this! :lol: )

Dean said:
Lastly, even Dr. Peat himself, doesn't follow his own recommendations optimally, at least not anymore. He eats meat on a daily basis, for example. So, I think there is something to be said for keeping your approach as open-minded as possible, or at least setting your sights on a day when you will be able to be more open-minded in your approach to your daily diet.

Well...an interesting assertion.
I don't think, personally, it is proven that Peat does not adhere to his own diet strictly.
For instance, on the "eats meat on a daily basis" thing:
that wouldn't necessarily trangress the boundaries of a strict Peat diet, to my thinking.
It would depend how much meat he eats and how good the meat is.
Peat doesn't say quality, ruminant meat is a bad food.
He just says it should not be used to get the main portion of the diet's protein.
And he says the stress incurred by eating meat can be mitigated by eating some gelatin at the same time
to make the total amino profile less stressful.

But you can tell Peat has sensual, aesthetic desires regarding diet,
and that all of those desires are not neatly satisfied by his ordained good foods.
For example: bacon.
He wants it,
though he knows it is filled with PUFA.
He strikes a bargain--aesthetics/sensuality > health--in an isolated, rare instance,
refries the bacon in coconut oil,
and eat it.
Case in point for those who like to argue that
-all the Peat foods are delicious and leave one completely satisfied
-all the foods Peat thinks are bad are repulsive and one will instinctually hate them. :lol:
 

pboy

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I agree with Peat's stance on starches mostly too, and it all mostly makes sense and correlates with my experience...but potatoes seem like kind of a unique medium between OJ and something like a whole grain wheat for example, and they gain the additional benefit of being prepeeled and cooked (making them convenient and removing the potential irritation parts) so that plays a factor as well. I can see how though, if I was to remove fruit juice completely and only eat potatoes after a week or so I'd probably not feel as good
 

Dean

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No troubles, Isadora. The thing is I don't know that I am starch intolerant. I don't know (and would seriously doubt) that starches got me into this trouble. I'm just saying that, given where I am now, starches may not be beneficial and may even get in the way of healing my gut/brain. So, my inclination, for the moment, is to keep things as basic and simple as possible.

As far as the potato juice goes, Peat has talked about the remarkable benefits of potato protein (unbound from the starch/fiber) and advocated for consuming cooked potato juice. He's cited some cases were it has solved some serious issues for a few clients. I don't think he has ever written an article about it, but he's said enough for me to consider it worth a try. It's a short term thing that may or may not be helpful to me. I don't know. Someone more scientific minded than I could probably fill you in on why he considers it so beneficial.

I will admit though that my enthusiasm and expectations for the cooked potato juice is a bit muted by the lack of testimonials to its benefits here or anywhere else. But still, I don't see much harm in trying it.
 

Dean

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Narouz, I think we mostly agree. I do remember reading that thread about whether Peating was easy or whatever and agreeing with your side of the argument. I think there is alot of self-convincing affirmation going on when people claim that Peating is as easy as pie. That's not to say that restricting yourself to Peat approved foods is unsatisfying or deficient, just that given the world we live in, it isn't easy or going to be easy, especially long term.

I am guilty of engaging in clumsy shorthand with my statement about Peat not following his own diet optimally anymore. What I meant to say and should have said that I find it curious that Dr. Peat eats meat as much as he does, given everything he's written about tryptophan/serotonin and the inconvenience of all the gelatin and coffee one has to have with it to offset the negatives.

I wasn't implying any kind of intellectual dishonesty or hypocrisy there. The man is obviously functioning physically and mentally at a high level and has for some time. He's 75 years old or so. If the man wants to eat meat, then far be it from me to be critical about it. I was just using it as an example in terms of the grey area between flexibility and optimization and how it can breakdown individually in different ways based on current health, future goals, personal preferences, and everyday realities. For example, perhaps the reason Dr. Peat eats meat daily is that it is more available or affordable than milk where he lives. I don't know.
 
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