"I Have Liver Issues And I Am Not Making Progress"

[Jack Roe]

You just don't get it man.

But, I am not going to waste any more time with someone who cannot see the self contradictory nature of their speech. I have laid out the assumptions in the OP, it's all there...people are attempting to cleanse their liver, they are missing the kidney angle, this is why I think this is the case, this is my personal experience, what do others think? Coming in and saying "ehh, all that is crap, super simple, whole lot about nothing." ...Well have fun with that.

You're right, I don't get why you think you have liver or kidney dysfunction without bloodwork or a urine analysis (e.g. protein in urine) giving some signal that you do.

I mean, if you are just guessing, why guess liver/kidney dysfunction, why not guess copper deficiency or lead poisoning or whatever else?

All I did was ask why you believe you have kidney/liver dysfunction---both of which are serious disorders.

My first question to anyone with health problems is if they get 100% DV for vitamins and minerals and prob. 2x the protein, just because that's not going to hurt. I have a lot of sick, doughy women in my white trash family, and none of them get enough protein, none of them get adequate mineral nutrition, and all of them are convinced that they "basically eat OK," they just "have too much pie" or ice cream or whatever, which is bull****. But there's simply no talking to them, they just get angry and irate if you suggest that they should perhaps consider whether they get all of their minerals rather than taking diabetes meds, hypertension meds, statins, thyroid meds, etc. etc.

I am _curious_ if you have treated your liver/kidney problems, real or imagined, by getting 100% DV, and decent whack of protein. No amount of PUFA avoidance is going to help if you get inadequate mineral nutrition.

 

[yerrag]

Instead of creating a new thread, I thought I'll share how I've been feeling since yesterday.

I now know the feeling of being old. For the first time, I felt my back ache, especially when I bend over. It is a feeling of soreness all over.

I think back and I realize there are too things that stand out. I've been eating less protein than usual, in the form of a milk blend. I don't think it was the formulation (milk, raw egg, gelatin, whey, eggshell powder, magnesium, niacinamide, GABA (at times), vitamin D3, b-complex vitamins), but that I was taking it below my daily requirements.

I was also taking plenty of fruit juice, but I amped it up the past two days.

I think it must have been too much fructose, when I was drinking two glasses a day, I was fine. When I increased it to three, the aches came. This would be for me the likely cause of pain. I think too much fructose would lead to an increase in uric acid. If this isn't the only cause, it could be that I've been on less calories the past 10 days, and with that the lower protein could just cause my liver to be less responsive in its filtering duties.

I've not had these kinds of aching before. Coincidentally, my waking temperature also went down to 35.7C where it normally registers at 36.1C.

I've use some Pregnenolone during this time, but it doesn't seem to work in maintaining my body temps. There was no lack of sugar in what I ate, so I could see lack of protein having an effect. And if the lack of protein were involved, my guess is that it is affecting the liver. Perhaps the liver is producing less thyroid as a result?

I'll stay off fruit juice for the next few days, increase my protein and caloric intake for the next 2-3 days. And if this doesn't work, I'll work in some Tyromix thyroid. My goal is to see if my waking temps increase to normal and if my sore back gets relief.

 

[yerrag]

Yeah it is a bit scary. There are schools that hand out NDs and they get TCM as part of their training. If you ask them they will say they are trained in Chinese medicine...but aren't regular doctors "trained" in nutrition?

Some Chinese doctors simply learn from their master, which is their father. No Western doctors learn from their father in the manner that some Chinese doctors do. It's kept in the family until something happens that breaks the chain of technology transfer.

You really have to sift or get 'word of mouth' recommendations to find a really good one. This lady practiced 20 yrs in Beijing Women's Hospital before coming to the US. She was a good diagnostician and could always tell me what I had eaten, (so weird). I used to eat horribly and over-train aikido and get tons of injuries. She used acupuncture needles connected to laser and red light all sustained for 45 minutes for my sprained joints. She would take my pulses and say, "Oh you had donuts again for breakfast." (yep I had)

Lucky guess? My friend recently went to an astrologer. The astrologer insisted she go to get a colonoscopy. She met him again and he insisted. She went and she ended up staying overnight at the hospital, after she had a large polyp removed. How'd they see it?

Yet, most everyone would not bother to do an Achilles tendon reflex test, and would rather spend more money on endocrine markers, at the risk of getting a false negative from conventional doctors. We don't rely on the power of observation as much as the nice printout from a lab test.

 

[Xisca]

but telling yourself that you have liver/kidney issues without any labs suggesting such a state, that's borderline hypochondriasis.

Well, my thyroid labs are fine for doctors, so my labs do not suggest I am hypo, but people here are telling me to go hypochondriac and think I am hypothyroid!? No, they just tell me that signs are more important than labs.

I just mean there are labs, but also clinical signs, and they are more important. And I begin to see that some blood labs are useless because the inbalance is in another place than blood. I might have correct thyroid results, but it is like glucose: what if they are in the blood and do not enter the cell well?

And in chinese medicine, are they even more encouraging hypochondriasis? They treat people who have not even started to be ill... Of course there are signs we can treat in time!

Yet, most everyone would not bother to do an Achilles tendon reflex test, and would rather spend more money on endocrine markers, at the risk of getting a false negative from conventional doctors. We don't rely on the power of observation as much as the nice printout from a lab test.

Labs are great as long as they do not remove observation, right?

BTW, I do have labs suggesting I have a liver problem with both phase I and II . I did organic acids urine test.
but I would considere kidneys as well, because I pee an awful lot at night. And some pain sometimes just below my ribs. This is logic if the liver has been overwhelmed, to need good ways of eliminating what you want to detox. Thus kidneys and intestine. That is why I also mention the theory of Hulda Clark who does this cleaning in this order, and she says to not detox the body with liver before having cleared the ways. Also liver has 2 phases of detox, and if you accelerate phase I before having phase II fine, you just detox for reintoxicating yourself. It seems that curcuma for example slows phase I to allow phase II recuperate what was late.

Just think about an assembly line and it is all very logic!
And also think that 1 stich in time saves 9! Do not wait for bad labs.

 

[Xisca]

What is beeig told here is very clear. Saying "I have liver issues" is a real modern medicine way of looking at things, as if our organs and system were separate!
I think it is thus right to warn that the answer is that we do not have a 1-organ problem, but a global problem, and that we could help ourselves better by widening our views, including all the chain, all the system, that is at work.

 

[Daniel11]

Gotten better as in what? recovered liver function? recovered from infection? hypothyroidism? PFS? I have no idea what kind of answer you are looking for with such a broad general question, if you actually looked into some of logs, everyone is recovering from something different, whether it be infection, hypothyroidism, PFS, cancer, liver issues, stress, high estrogen, low T etc.

I thought we agreed to disagree like you stated, yet you are asking me to do research for you and spoon feed you information yet trying to low ball and insult me at the same time lmao, so I'll say it again go back through the logs, there is also a "search" button on the forum and search for keywords for a specific illness/disease/health issue that you are specifically looking for that someone has recovered from and you can make the determination for yourself.

First of all i am by no means intentionally insulting you, i spent a lot of my youth being bullied by other kids and i sure would not want other people to feel that pain especially since I'm sure that the repressed emotions i carried from those painful fearful experiences helped contribute to the eventual decline in my health in later years.

But i am a very strong forthwith person at this point in my life and i apologize if i have hurt your feelings.

I agree we are having a debate and in debates you need to defend your argument, and you are the one that put forth the argument that most people on this forum are using synthetic supplements and then you showed us an image of many threads that prove this.

The whole greater context of our debate and main purpose of this forum is for people to share information about ways to heal themselves, and the only way to asses whats working for others and be inspired to try the supplements or techniques we read about, is to know what is working and what has helped other people get better.

Your making bold statements about how most the people on this forum use synthetic supplements like caffeine and vitamins but your not supplying the crucial information for your argument; How many of these people are truly doing fine now?

I already mentioned that i know some people have really improved their health, but what i mostly see when i look at the threads especially about supplements, is a lots of short term stimulation then something changes and they feel worse again, with stamens like “ i took this and felt great all morning, then by evening feel awful again” or “wow this vitamin or hormone is amazing i have so much energy and feel so androgenic, then few days later, i don't no whats happening i fee like crap again, maybe i will try this now…”

Im not seeing many people say they really did it, that they feel great and are now back to a full life with out the daily figuring exactly what to eat or swallow just to feel like they are above the water.

I really do not want to hurt your feelings but this paradigm of using synthetic vitamins, caffeine, amino acids etc.. is not doing it for most people, its a start and i believe some of these supplements can play a part, but they are by no means helping most people truly live healthy vibrant lives.

For me the key was not dosing with vitamins, it was improving endocrine functioning and healing my digestive system so i could absorb the nutrients i need from my food. Our bodies are extremely intelligent our cells know what to do if we give them energy and proper nutrition.

There is no way any of us could ever come close to understanding what nutrients we need at each moment of every day, we have evolved over the last 200,000 years because our bodies know how to digest and absorb the nutrients they exactly need at the times they are needed.

The whole reason we are in this health mess is because synthetic and other environmental toxins along with emotional pressures have effected our metabolism, disrupted endocrine functioning and caused microbial imbalances in our intestines.

This forum as gotten a little inbred, I'm proposing we expand our minds and get everyone better and then go out and help heal the world so the next generations of humans do not have to deal with all this uncomfortable health stuff.

This is not about Ray, i would have never regained my heath without learning about the concepts he presented, he has given us some breadcrumbs leading in the right direction, but the path is our own.

However potent my words may seem to you at times, please know with my intentions i wish for you and everyone the very best.

 

[TubZy]

First of all i am by no means intentionally insulting you, i spent a lot of my youth being bullied by other kids and i sure would not want other people to feel that pain especially since I'm sure that the repressed emotions i carried from those painful fearful experiences helped contribute to the eventual decline in my health in later years.

But i am a very strong forthwith person at this point in my life and i apologize if i have hurt your feelings.

I agree we are having a debate and in debates you need to defend your argument, and you are the one that put forth the argument that most people on this forum are using synthetic supplements and then you showed us an image of many threads that prove this.

The whole greater context of our debate and main purpose of this forum is for people to share information about ways to heal themselves, and the only way to asses whats working for others and be inspired to try the supplements or techniques we read about, is to know what is working and what has helped other people get better.

Your making bold statements about how most the people on this forum use synthetic supplements like caffeine and vitamins but your not supplying the crucial information for your argument; How many of these people are truly doing fine now?

I already mentioned that i know some people have really improved their health, but what i mostly see when i look at the threads especially about supplements, is a lots of short term stimulation then something changes and they feel worse again, with stamens like “ i took this and felt great all morning, then by evening feel awful again” or “wow this vitamin or hormone is amazing i have so much energy and feel so androgenic, then few days later, i don't no whats happening i fee like crap again, maybe i will try this now…”

Im not seeing many people say they really did it, that they feel great and are now back to a full life with out the daily figuring exactly what to eat or swallow just to feel like they are above the water.

I really do not want to hurt your feelings but this paradigm of using synthetic vitamins, caffeine, amino acids etc.. is not doing it for most people, its a start and i believe some of these supplements can play a part, but they are by no means helping most people truly live healthy vibrant lives.

For me the key was not dosing with vitamins, it was improving endocrine functioning and healing my digestive system so i could absorb the nutrients i need from my food. Our bodies are extremely intelligent our cells know what to do if we give them energy and proper nutrition.

There is no way any of us could ever come close to understanding what nutrients we need at each moment of every day, we have evolved over the last 200,000 years because our bodies know how to digest and absorb the nutrients they exactly need at the times they are needed.

The whole reason we are in this health mess is because synthetic and other environmental toxins along with emotional pressures have effected our metabolism, disrupted endocrine functioning and caused microbial imbalances in our intestines.

This forum as gotten a little inbred, I'm proposing we expand our minds and get everyone better and then go out and help heal the world so the next generations of humans do not have to deal with all this uncomfortable health stuff.

This is not about Ray, i would have never regained my heath without learning about the concepts he presented, he has given us some breadcrumbs leading in the right direction, but the path is our own.

However potent my words may seem to you at times, please know with my intentions i wish for you and everyone the very best.

Lol you didn't hurt my feelings, I just found it odd that you low ball me with comments and we agree to disagree, then you respond back again demanding me to give you information and calculate logs just for you.

The debate was over between us anyways, just like you said earlier, I was responding to another poster's comment and then you decided to jump in again.

Many long term members here (including me) have used some sort of supplements to either fully recover or speed up their recovery/improve symptoms including:

@haidut
@lisaferraro
@Such_Saturation
@sladerunner69
@Jsaute21
@Maxout777

Those are just some people off the top of my head who are major contributors here, I'm sure I'm missing more I can't think of right now.

I still don't know what your looking for though. People have hypothyroidism and dental issues, but take K2 which fixes their dental and bone issues (K2 isn't going to stop working after a few days for your teeth, it will continue to work as it can shuttle calcium into bones), but obviously is not going to "cure" their hypothyroidism until they address other issues, so to say supplements don't work or can't help is just plain wrong. Sure it is not going to cure anything overnight, but it doesn't mean it should be avoided just because it is synthetic.

So like I said supplements can help, but it isn't just black and white.

In your logic, someone who is severely hypothyroid shouldn't use cynoplus or cynomel (which is the only thyroid supplement Peat suggests) while fixing their diet and depleting PUFA, but should just keep suffering in a stressed state, just because they are synthetic supplements.

 

[Jack Roe]

Everything grows and everything decays---often simultaneously in biological systems; old cells die off and new cells come to be. This cycle of growth and decay is predicated of appropriate nutrition, both to produce the substances that cause the natural decay (otherwise the body is "rotting", we want controlled demolition, not "rotting") and the natural growth. These substances are complex aggregations of proteins, vitamins and minerals. Inadequacy in any of these three categories is going to mean that the natural process of growth and decay cannot function.

From what I've read of Ray Peat, he focuses more on the end products, the hormones, rather than on the mineral nutrition that enables the hormones to be produced from the proteins. Getting 100g of protein from the "right sources" like gelatin, etc. isn't going to do anything if you lack mineral nutrition.

"we could help ourselves better by widening our views, including all the chain, all the system, that is at work."

Yeah, maybe, except that doesn't mean anything, it's basically spiritualist woo, "expand your mind and your **** will follow" or whatever.

So far I've asked three fairly simple question:

(1) What indicates liver dysfunction? Elevated AST/ALT, other liver enzymes?
(2) What indicates Kidney dysfunction? GFR less than 60? Less than 90?
(3) Have you tried getting 100% DV of vitamins, minerals, and 2x DV protein (DV protein is 50g, which seems skimpy to me)?

I can see expanding your views and working with different sources if you try the official nutrition recommendations and find they don't work---but simply dismissing them without trying them, I dunno. Further, those nutrition recommendations, when it comes to the amount of mineral in the diet, they are produced by multiple people working together in many different universities; it's not all just one quasi-autistic guy with an axe to grind---it's dozens of quasi-autistic people using the scientific method in various universities, and the research is then brought together by boards of quasi-autistic people. And then these recommendations are used. I mean, they use these recommendations to keep comatose people alive for quite some time. And then people in refugee camps, life sucks in a refugee camp, life as a refugee sucks, but they do tend to feed a nutritionally sound diet. You have refugee camps, etc. where these nutrition recommendations are used, and the people there don't all develop liver dysfunction/quasi-hypothyroid. Why is that?

"The whole reason we are in this health mess is because synthetic and other environmental toxins along with emotional pressures have effected our metabolism, disrupted endocrine functioning and caused microbial imbalances in our intestines." (Daniel11)

Presumably everyone is exposed to the same environmental toxins, similar levels of pressure, but not everyone develops cold hands and these sorts of things, so I think your hypothesis is not very good. As I say, I know _plenty of healthy people_ who do not avoid PUFA, do not fret over what they eat (tho they do tend to eat a lot of a variety of things, a lot meaning they don't binge on any one thing, like refined sugar, tho they might put a few tsp in their coffee), etc.

If it were toxins, then everyone who is exposed would have a similar response, but not everyone is sick. Of course, I guess there could be genetics that help one deal with toxins/stress, but if that is the case, then there is not much point in trying, because you're not going to change your genetics by eating gelatin. Further, while some of the sickies on the internet had unhealthy childhoods (often strongly correlated with unhealthy mothers), many did not. Most children are not sick; could this be because children require far fewer minerals and vitamins, so getting them is a lot easier? Surely it's easier for a 20 lb. child to get sufficient mineral nutrition than for a 200 lb. man to get it!

"Well, my thyroid labs are fine for doctors, so my labs do not suggest I am hypo, but people here are telling me to go hypochondriac and think I am hypothyroid!? No, they just tell me that signs are more important than labs."

So, there are at least two possibilities here. One is the popular alternative medicine view that an acceptable TSH is really not acceptable. The other is that thyroid is working as well as it can given an inadequate diet and that the issue is not really thyroid function but poor nutrition. So, how do you know you eat an adequate diet? 100% DV vitamins, minerals? If not that method, what method do you use?​

 

[Tarmander]

If it were toxins, then everyone who is exposed would have a similar response, but not everyone is sick. Of course, I guess there could be genetics that help one deal with toxins/stress, but if that is the case, then there is not much point in trying, because you're not going to change your genetics by eating gelatin.​

Do you even hear yourself...

 

[lollipop]

Lol you didn't hurt my feelings, I just found it odd that you low ball me with comments and we agree to disagree, then you respond back again demanding me to give you information and calculate logs just for you.

The debate was over between us anyways, just like you said earlier, I was responding to another poster's comment and then you decided to jump in again.

Many long term members here (including me) have used some sort of supplements to either fully recover or speed up their recovery/improve symptoms including:

@haidut
@lisaferraro
@Such_Saturation
@sladerunner69
@Jsaute21
@Maxout777

Those are just some people off the top of my head who are major contributors here, I'm sure I'm missing more I can't think of right now.

I still don't know what your looking for though. People have hypothyroidism and dental issues, but take K2 which fixes their dental and bone issues (K2 isn't going to stop working after a few days for your teeth, it will continue to work as it can shuttle calcium into bones), but obviously is not going to "cure" their hypothyroidism until they address other issues, so to say supplements don't work or can't help is just plain wrong. Sure it is not going to cure anything overnight, but it doesn't mean it should be avoided just because it is synthetic.

So like I said supplements can help, but it isn't just black and white.

In your logic, someone who is severely hypothyroid shouldn't use cynoplus or cynomel (which is the only thyroid supplement Peat suggests) while fixing their diet and depleting PUFA, but should just keep suffering in a stressed state, just because they are synthetic supplements.

To @TubZy's point, I have surely used targeted supplements in combination with dietary considerations (basically low low PUFA, balanced meals of food - moderate sat fat, mixed carbs sometimes peaty veggies, fructose or starch: potatoes or white rice, moderate protein each meal) and movement - walking, yoga including weight bearing/strengthening and rebounder and meditation to ameliorate my overall health and wellness. Because of the SMART contributions on this platform, I have become MUCH more educated and targeted with supplements than before where I simply through everything at myself - lol.

The biggest difference I have found is a huge improvement in my liver and ability to store glycogen and use carbs. Rebooted my metabolism without needing Thyroid...knock on wood. Supplements are like a moving target for me changing, adapting, stopping use, etc. as per needed. Feeling much more able to help myself and not rely on an external practioner.

@Daniel11 I appreciate your ideas of creating a large toolkit that includes many elements of mind/body/inner being to approach health. In my opinion wellness is not simply the absence of disease and includes much more.

 

[Tarmander]

To @TubZy's point, I have surely used targeted supplements in combination with dietary considerations (basically low low PUFA, balanced meals of food - moderate sat fat, mixed carbs sometimes peaty veggies, fructose or starch: potatoes or white rice, moderate protein each meal) and movement - walking, yoga including weight bearing/strengthening and rebounder and meditation to ameliorate my overall health and wellness. Because of the SMART contributions on this platform, I have become MUCH more educated and targeted with supplements than before where I simply through everything at myself - lol.

The biggest difference I have found is a huge improvement in my liver and ability to store glycogen and use carbs. Rebooted my metabolism without needing Thyroid...knock on wood. Supplements are like a moving target for me changing, adapting, stopping use, etc. as per needed. Feeling much more able to help myself and not rely on an external practioner.

@Daniel11 I appreciate your ideas of creating a large toolkit that includes many elements of mind/body/inner being to approach health. In my opinion wellness is not simply the absence of disease and includes much more.

nice! rebooting without thyroid is great.

Hey what do you think of the rebounder? I was thinking of trying it out

 

[lollipop]

nice! rebooting without thyroid is great.

Hey what do you think of the rebounder? I was thinking of trying it out

LOVE it @Tarmander - can go as hard or as soft as you wish. Fabulous for lymph fluid (so are inversions but lymph fluid takes time to get moving and then to renormalize - not many have patience and strength to do 20min headstands). I sometimes twist as I bounce, do arm movements - again feels awesome and I control how much exertion I do. I have even done the quick burst with short recovery type of movement. Great for overly hot or cold days - hard to walk when it is over 100 degrees or under 45 degrees. I have read one criticism about the movement with not making forward progress might not be best for brain, but honestly I have been using for 10 years with zero problems. I do not do everyday, maybe 2 or 3 times a week - less if I walk outside. That coupled with daily yoga and seriously feel I have found a winning combo for myself

 

[Xisca]

If it were toxins, then everyone who is exposed would have a similar response, but not everyone is sick. Of course, I guess there could be genetics that help one deal with toxins/stress,

"Well, my thyroid labs are fine for doctors, so my labs do not suggest I am hypo, but people here are telling me to go hypochondriac and think I am hypothyroid!? No, they just tell me that signs are more important than labs."

So, there are at least two possibilities here. One is the popular alternative medicine view that an acceptable TSH is really not acceptable. The other is that thyroid is working as well as it can given an inadequate diet

Yes according to my genetic test, there are some differences among us... but genes can be turned on or off, it seems...
It is also known that 1/3 of the population has a weakness for detoxing some pesticides, and this is exactly the rate of farmers having health issues related to pesticide use.

Haha, toxins, YES for me, but when I was not even born.... and it damages the nervous sytem, let's say ptsd at a time your nervous system is not finished... and damages liver, as knew my parents when I was a baby. How did they know? Digestion problems very early in life.
So please add to what you take into account the age of exposure, and then the toxic accumulation at each generation, and the place where you live etc.

-> We are not exposed the same and cannot have a similar response.

Then about labs, I did not have only TSH. And my T3 is still in the supposed normal range, BUT 1 point lower than 8 years ago, and doctors do not find it a problem, though I have some cholesterol and low D3 though being in the sun, and this relates to low thyroid in a bloodtest. 2 years ago I was sceptical when I asked if I could have normal labs and still be hypoT and Tara said a strong yes. Now I know that it is even possible that cells be somehow T-resistant.

 

[Xisca]

For me the key was not dosing with vitamins, it was improving endocrine functioning and healing my digestive system so i could absorb the nutrients i need from my food. Our bodies are extremely intelligent our cells know what to do if we give them energy and proper nutrition.

The whole reason we are in this health mess is because synthetic and other environmental toxins along with emotional pressures have effected our metabolism, disrupted endocrine functioning and caused microbial imbalances in our intestines.

+1 major reasons to have problems....

I have learned also that what you say about cells is true. I know that our body has its own intelligence, through the autonomic nervous systems that works directly without the central system, but also, the cells have a system that bypasses even the ANS! They can shut or open, according to what is around, food or toxins. It just made sense to me, because I had those toxins aroung much more than many, when I was a fetus, and it confirms the inner feeling I always had, that I have problems to shift from opening to closing at the normal speed. I guess we have many more things than the eye pupilla that has this sort of movement...

And if this is messed up, then the metabolism is messed up. Now I have more understanding about why I am in aerobic glycolisis, if my cells have some bad memories that make them shut too much, to insuline, to thyroid, to oxygene, glucose or whatever. I have to lower any kind of polution, toxins etc, AND work on the resilience to persuade my body to do what it should, and that this is safe. This part is all the work you can do with meditation, yoga, any technique that is helping PTSD...

 

[Jack Roe]

Do you even hear yourself...

Yeah, I do. Everyone here is, as far as I know, a typical western middle class person exposed to, in all likelyhood, a similar load of toxins---and there are plenty of healthy people around where these people live, so environmental toxins are out, unless it's genetic susceptibility. Foodborne toxins like pesticides, again, plenty of people eat the same food and are healthy. Perhaps there is some variation in stress, but I doubt it is enough to account for such profound health problems.

I've asked a few simple questions, and it's not like I am owed answers, but I find it puzzling that there is so much evasion--the questions I am asking are simple.

Why do you think you have liver problems? Why do you think you have kidney problems? Have you tried eating 100% DV?

Simple questions. And I know that for most people the answer is going to be no---nothing I've read that Peat has written says "first things first, focus on getting 100% of all of your vitamins and minerals, as defined by the authorities." The authorities are _not always right_, but they are also _not always wrong_. Getting 100% DV is _not going to hurt you_, not even the 18mg of iron suggested, if it is not heme iron, because nonheme iron is so poorly absorbed. And if you give blood once or twice a year, that will certainly eliminate enough iron that getting 18mg daily isn't goign to be an issue.

Before suggesting complex exogenous molecules (and if I did, I would suggest amphetamine! Mmm, amphetamine! Or LSD. O heck, why not both?) why not give the body the building blocks that it uses to synthesize its own enzymes, hormones, etc? What I am _trying to understand_ is this preference for molecules the body can build itself, if properly nourished. Think about why you prob. think my suggestion to take amphetamine is no good, but taking thyroid is just fine. Neither molecule is going to correct an underlying deficiency that is predicated of the body's lack of sufficient nutrition. The fact that thyroid is "natural" and amphetamine is "synthetic" is completely irrelevant.

My major question here is "how have you ruled out low-grade malnutrition"? I mean, we have primate lab chow: http://www.labdiet.com/cs/groups/lo...eb_content/mdrf/mdi4/~edisp/ducm04_028407.pdf

It seems to me _very strange_ that primates kept in cages can be fed a diet that keeps them fairly consistently healthy but humans have trouble with this. So, perhaps humans have greater genetic variation, perhaps they have more environmental variation. And the biggest environmental variable, it seems to me, is diet: you have healthy people in most any environment with large-scale human settlement, so you can't say "it's the air in the city" or something like that (and in the 19th century, this was an idea in vogue in medicine, before scientific nutrition got going). So what is the biggest environmental variable in a modern human settlement? It's diet. There are huge class-based differences in access to nutrition, and even if people have the money to eat nutritious food, they don't necessarily do it.

Take someone who at about 25-35 starts showing "hypothyroid" symptoms---cold hands, flaky skin, hair falling out, whatever. Now, given that the subject had a period with adequate thyroid function from 0-25, presumably, what is more likely: some genetic defect that only crops up at 25-35; some toxin building up in the liver/kidneys/forebrain/X; or creeping low-grade malnutrition? And which is easier to rule out? It would seem to me that malnutrition could be eliminated as a cause simply by eating an adequate diet. And if that were the case, giving exogenous thyroid is not going to correct the underlying issue w/ malnutrition.

 

[Xisca]

I do not know how you are mistaken on this, you miss some informations and thus you cannot have the right conclusion. I would not say your reasonning is flawed, but that you use it with lacking informations. I have not really changed my logic along my life, but I always add new informations and correct my view accordingly.

Everyone here is, as far as I know, a typical western middle class person exposed to, in all likelyhood, a similar load of toxins---and there are plenty of healthy people around where these people live, so environmental toxins are out, unless it's genetic susceptibility. Foodborne toxins like pesticides, again, plenty of people eat the same food and are healthy. Perhaps there is some variation in stress, but I doubt it is enough to account for such profound health problems.

Can you read me above?
You are wrong in what you suppose...
environmental toxins are not out at all.
About DV, I can add that guts will make a huge difference even with the same diet... you absorb or not.
And I know enough about variations in stress to tell you that you have to widen your idea that we are so similar, because we are also very different! And the stress is not in the story, not in what people have lived, but in the individual reaction. And no one can judge or despise those who have a bad reaction to any traumatic event!
Some people got rid of migraine or constipation with one session of therapy to remove ptsd form of freeze on the nervous sytem. And please nobody should say that eating more sugar is enough for everybody, some stresses go further.

 

[Tarmander]

Yeah, I do. Everyone here is, as far as I know, a typical western middle class person exposed to, in all likelyhood, a similar load of toxins---and there are plenty of healthy people around where these people live, so environmental toxins are out, unless it's genetic susceptibility. Foodborne toxins like pesticides, again, plenty of people eat the same food and are healthy. Perhaps there is some variation in stress, but I doubt it is enough to account for such profound health problems.

I've asked a few simple questions, and it's not like I am owed answers, but I find it puzzling that there is so much evasion--the questions I am asking are simple.

Why do you think you have liver problems? Why do you think you have kidney problems? Have you tried eating 100% DV?

Simple questions. And I know that for most people the answer is going to be no---nothing I've read that Peat has written says "first things first, focus on getting 100% of all of your vitamins and minerals, as defined by the authorities." The authorities are _not always right_, but they are also _not always wrong_. Getting 100% DV is _not going to hurt you_, not even the 18mg of iron suggested, if it is not heme iron, because nonheme iron is so poorly absorbed. And if you give blood once or twice a year, that will certainly eliminate enough iron that getting 18mg daily isn't goign to be an issue.

Before suggesting complex exogenous molecules (and if I did, I would suggest amphetamine! Mmm, amphetamine! Or LSD. O heck, why not both?) why not give the body the building blocks that it uses to synthesize its own enzymes, hormones, etc? What I am _trying to understand_ is this preference for molecules the body can build itself, if properly nourished. Think about why you prob. think my suggestion to take amphetamine is no good, but taking thyroid is just fine. Neither molecule is going to correct an underlying deficiency that is predicated of the body's lack of sufficient nutrition. The fact that thyroid is "natural" and amphetamine is "synthetic" is completely irrelevant.

My major question here is "how have you ruled out low-grade malnutrition"? I mean, we have primate lab chow: http://www.labdiet.com/cs/groups/lo...eb_content/mdrf/mdi4/~edisp/ducm04_028407.pdf

It seems to me _very strange_ that primates kept in cages can be fed a diet that keeps them fairly consistently healthy but humans have trouble with this. So, perhaps humans have greater genetic variation, perhaps they have more environmental variation. And the biggest environmental variable, it seems to me, is diet: you have healthy people in most any environment with large-scale human settlement, so you can't say "it's the air in the city" or something like that (and in the 19th century, this was an idea in vogue in medicine, before scientific nutrition got going). So what is the biggest environmental variable in a modern human settlement? It's diet. There are huge class-based differences in access to nutrition, and even if people have the money to eat nutritious food, they don't necessarily do it.

Take someone who at about 25-35 starts showing "hypothyroid" symptoms---cold hands, flaky skin, hair falling out, whatever. Now, given that the subject had a period with adequate thyroid function from 0-25, presumably, what is more likely: some genetic defect that only crops up at 25-35; some toxin building up in the liver/kidneys/forebrain/X; or creeping low-grade malnutrition? And which is easier to rule out? It would seem to me that malnutrition could be eliminated as a cause simply by eating an adequate diet. And if that were the case, giving exogenous thyroid is not going to correct the underlying issue w/ malnutrition.

What makes you think, that I think, I have liver or kidney problems? Please show me the quote because my orientation is more complex.

I am guessing you think you are offering like some ground breaking insight. You are really pushing this point about 100% nutrition, but like I said before, you just don't get it. Go read some of the logs that are developed on this forum and you will see people posting crono-meter shots of their diet, and getting 100% of all available nutrients. At one point in my early 20s, if I got 100% of DV for Magnesium, I could not sleep. not a wink.

You really just need to go read more because your viewpoint is very simplistic, and small. I really wish you were right, and things were as simple as you say. When I was 4 I wondered why my parents stressed about money, couldn't they go get more from the bank machine? Your healthy anecdotal friends who you keep mentioning literally mean NOTHING. Every time you mention them, you undermine EVERYTHING you are saying. Just go read more.

 

[aarfai]

Has anyone successfully treated liver issues with acetazolamide? Ray has spoken about it's use in the diseased liver before

 

[Regina]

What makes you think, that I think, I have liver or kidney problems? Please show me the quote because my orientation is more complex.

I am guessing you think you are offering like some ground breaking insight. You are really pushing this point about 100% nutrition, but like I said before, you just don't get it. Go read some of the logs that are developed on this forum and you will see people posting crono-meter shots of their diet, and getting 100% of all available nutrients. At one point in my early 20s, if I got 100% of DV for Magnesium, I could not sleep. not a wink.

You really just need to go read more because your viewpoint is very simplistic, and small. I really wish you were right, and things were as simple as you say. When I was 4 I wondered why my parents stressed about money, couldn't they go get more from the bank machine? Your healthy anecdotal friends who you keep mentioning literally mean NOTHING. Every time you mention them, you undermine EVERYTHING you are saying. Just go read more.

"When I was 4 I wondered why my parents stressed about money, couldn't they go get more from the bank machine?" That's adorbs .

 

[Jack Roe]

What makes you think, that I think, I have liver or kidney problems? Please show me the quote because my orientation is more complex.

I am guessing you think you are offering like some ground breaking insight. You are really pushing this point about 100% nutrition, but like I said before, you just don't get it. Go read some of the logs that are developed on this forum and you will see people posting crono-meter shots of their diet, and getting 100% of all available nutrients. At one point in my early 20s, if I got 100% of DV for Magnesium, I could not sleep. not a wink.

You really just need to go read more because your viewpoint is very simplistic, and small. I really wish you were right, and things were as simple as you say. When I was 4 I wondered why my parents stressed about money, couldn't they go get more from the bank machine? Your healthy anecdotal friends who you keep mentioning literally mean NOTHING. Every time you mention them, you undermine EVERYTHING you are saying. Just go read more.

Your thread is titled "I have Liver Issues."

I asked why you think that you have liver issues (problems) and you said "You should reread the thread. It's not really about liver but kidneys."

OK, so why do you think you have kidney problems? I guess I am slightly reading between the lines there. You have no liver issues/problems and no kidney issues/problems?

"At one point in my early 20s, if I got 100% of DV for Magnesium, I could not sleep. not a wink"

Well, OK, does this mean that since that time you have been getting less than DV for Mg but DV for everything else?

"Your healthy anecdotal friends who you keep mentioning literally mean NOTHING."

Well, they have something in common: they don't fret about what they eat, which I find interesting if nothing else. They don't avoid any particular foods, and they don't obsess about eating any particular foods. They all eat sweets sometimes, they're all reasonably physically active, and they have been for their whole lives, as were their parents---most of them had very high quality mothers who fed them _excellent_ quality food. Tell me about your mother, says Dr. Freud! Did your mom feed you a healthy diet?

So, if I am reading between the lines correctly, you avoid 100% DV of Mg because it will make you too wired, that is, you get less than 400mg Mg a day?

But do you get 100% DV of everything else?

Poor health is fairly well correlated with poor socioeconomic standing which is fairly well correlated with poor nutrition. Not completely, especially as people get older and the degenerative diseases of old age crop up, but for young/middle aged people, poor health is _quite strongly correlated_ with poor socioeconomic standing and poor nutrition.

"I really wish you were right, and things were as simple as you say"

So, you tried getting the DV for Mg, was this while getting the DV for everything else?