I am QUITTING COFFEE for 100 days

[Korven]

Alright, I am resurrecting this thread.

As evident by the lack of activity here, I did NOT make it 100 days without coffee. I really wish I had stuck with that promise to myself, because then I would know what it feels like to be free of all mind-altering substances. Now I just have 100 more days of being caffeinated... damnit.

I managed maybe 2 weeks decaf and then I got sucked back into coffee drinking culture... COFFEE IS EVERYWHERE!!! It wasn't even that difficult for me to quit, but I find that staying decaf in an environment where EVERYONE drinks coffee to be extremely difficult.

So... why am I giving this another go?

I still don't sleep well and I can't help but feel that I am going around in circles in life due to poor quality sleep. My sleep is not great, and that means my immune system is probably not functioning optimally and I still get sick pretty often, and I don't recover well from exercise so I can't get a "natural high" from working out (have to substitute with more coffee instead), and I have constant tension in my back, neck and shoulders, and so on and so forth. See the list of problems in my first post. I am pretty sure I have a stress problem and coffee is not helping.

I really, REALLY, need to fix my sleep. And the only thing I haven't really tried is cutting out coffee for an extended period of time. I am so addicted to this stuff I feel embarrassed to even talk about it. I don't drink alcohol, I don't smoke weed, no nicotine, I don't do any drugs. Coffee has been *is my drug of choice and I think that why my brain has such a hard time letting it go, it is my go-to substance whenever I feel tired, bored, depressed, sick, have work to do, etc. My brain keeps me telling me, how will you manage without coffee? How will you perform at work, be social, be funny, be creative, be a productive citizen?

Lastly, I still have rosacea. I get random flare-ups of red patches and pustules in my face, it is destroying my self-confidence, puts me in a bad mood, and is driving me nuts trying to figure it out. Truthfully I don't know if coffee is the culprit here but again I wouldn't know because I have been drinking coffee my entire life.

Ok wish me luck, I will have to taper down again because I am drinking way too much... AGAIN. In 1 week I should be good to go decaf again. I will have 1 week where I go on holiday in a warm climate so that should be a good time to quit.

 

[TheSir]

I still don't sleep well and I can't help but feel that I am going around in circles in life due to poor quality sleep. My sleep is not great, and that means my immune system is probably not functioning optimally and I still get sick pretty often, and I don't recover well from exercise so I can't get a "natural high" from working out (have to substitute with more coffee instead), and I have constant tension in my back, neck and shoulders, and so on and so forth. See the list of problems in my first post. I am pretty sure I have a stress problem and coffee is not helping

Have you considered treating your problem as adrenaline fatigue? All your symptoms including your addiction could stem from it. Why not take 6-12 months to just rest and sleep as much as possible while minimizing working out and all other forms of stress? I recently hit one year without caffeine after battling with on/off addiction for years. I had to accept the tiredness and the discomfort; to internalize that I can't afford to push my body. It wasn't until I stopped trying to achieve anything that my addiction died. It was a mindset change above all, one that favored relaxation over doing things.

 

[schmolch]

I'm off coffee since 3 weeks and used to drink 10-15 cups a day since 3 decades.
This time it was pretty easy and i don't understand why, but one thing that was new helped me a lot.
I drink a hot cup of water all throughout the day. This allowed me to keep my routine. I wake up - hot cup of water, arrive at work - hot cup of water...etc.
You might be suprised how similar it is to drinking a coffee.

 

[Giraffe]

I really, REALLY, need to fix my sleep.

A chicken lamp helps me to relax. It often helps with sleep problems, but not always.

 

[Korven]

Have you considered treating your problem as adrenaline fatigue? All your symptoms including your addiction could stem from it. Why not take 6-12 months to just rest and sleep as much as possible while minimizing working out and all other forms of stress? I recently hit one year without caffeine after battling with on/off addiction for years. I had to accept the tiredness and the discomfort; to internalize that I can't afford to push my body. It wasn't until I stopped trying to achieve anything that my addiction died. It was a mindset change above all, one that favored relaxation over doing things.

That is awesome that you made it 1 year no caffeine @TheSir , hats off to you.

You are right, I've been burning the candle at both ends for too long and I need rest and sleep. The thing is that I am a "hopeless type A personality" person and the idea that I will be tired and unproductive or depressed for months after quitting coffee seems kinda scary. But honestly it can't be much worse than the problems I am facing now, it's time for a change. Sincerely thanks for your input.

 

[Korven]

I'm off coffee since 3 weeks and used to drink 10-15 cups a day since 3 decades.
This time it was pretty easy and i don't understand why, but one thing that was new helped me a lot.
I drink a hot cup of water all throughout the day. This allowed me to keep my routine. I wake up - hot cup of water, arrive at work - hot cup of water...etc.
You might be suprised how similar it is to drinking a coffee.

I will try the hot water trick when I quit coffee this time around. Thanks @schmolch !

A chicken lamp helps me to relax. It often helps with sleep problems, but not always.

Do you have it turned on during night-time or just before bed? I may look into turning my bed into a chicken coop. Thanks!

 

[Giraffe]

Do you have it turned on during night-time or just before bed? I may look into turning my bed into a chicken coop. Thanks!

The plan usually is to use the chicken lamp for maybe 10 minutes, but I often fall asleep with the lamp shining on me. I have turned my bed into a chicken coop.

 

[Jonk]

Lastly, I still have rosacea. I get random flare-ups of red patches and pustules in my face, it is destroying my self-confidence, puts me in a bad mood, and is driving me nuts trying to figure it out. Truthfully I don't know if coffee is the culprit here but again I wouldn't know because I have been drinking coffee my entire life.

You've probably read this several times but from the Ray Peat article Rosacea, inflammation, and aging: The inefficiency of stress: "

Caffeine increases cells' energy efficiency, and by opposing the effects of adenosine (secreted by cells that are stressed and energy-depleted), it can inhibit vasodilation, angioneogenesis (Merighi, et al., 2007; Ryzhov, et al., 2007), and fibrosis (Chan, et al., 2006).

One nearly ubiquitous source of inappropriate excitation and energy depletion is the endotoxin, bacterial lipopolysaccharides absorbed from the intestine (Wang and White, 1999). That this ubiquitous toxin has a role in rosacea is suggested by the observation that intestinal stimulation, to speed transit through the bowel, immediately relieved symptoms (Kendall, 2002). Increased cortisol (Simon, et al., 1998) and sepsis (Levy, 2007) interfere with mitochondrial energy production.

With the coffee, maybe it's like a craving for salt or sugar, like your body instinctively knows that it's "good" for you? Also when you mention the tension in back, neck and shoulders. My theory on this is that when our intestines gets irritated/swell, it breaks the natural stability of the transverse abdominis musculature, kind of forcing us to stabilize our bodies creating tension in all sorts of ways. I used to basically carry my shoulders up to my ears haha, but keeping the intestine clear helps very much.

 

[Korven]

You've probably read this several times but from the Ray Peat article Rosacea, inflammation, and aging: The inefficiency of stress: "



With the coffee, maybe it's like a craving for salt or sugar, like your body instinctively knows that it's "good" for you? Also when you mention the tension in back, neck and shoulders. My theory on this is that when our intestines gets irritated/swell, it breaks the natural stability of the transverse abdominis musculature, kind of forcing us to stabilize our bodies creating tension in all sorts of ways. I used to basically carry my shoulders up to my ears haha, but keeping the intestine clear helps very much.

Thanks yeah I have read that article a couple of times. It definitely is gut-related; I can manage this condition with a super strict diet, but as soon as I eat something "bad" (for example I ate a fruit salad a few days ago) I will get flare-ups. I have almost an allergic reaction to normal, healthy foods like fruit, and my hypothesis is that coffee is leading to increased intestinal permeability with more endotoxins and junk from intestine entering systemic circulation. But that is only an hypothesis that is yet to be tested. I have had rosacea for more than 10 years, and while I know people struggle with way worse thing, it's still a pain in the **** and I don't get why it's so freaking difficult to get to the root cause. My skin condition is still a total enigma to me.

Regarding inflamed intestines I will probably have to do more strict diet experiments, same as you I notice that some foods give me terrible posture. It's just exhausting having to spend so much time and mental bandwidth on these things.

 

[Jonk]

Thanks yeah I have read that article a couple of times. It definitely is gut-related; I can manage this condition with a super strict diet, but as soon as I eat something "bad" (for example I ate a fruit salad a few days ago) I will get flare-ups. I have almost an allergic reaction to normal, healthy foods like fruit, and my hypothesis is that coffee is leading to increased intestinal permeability with more endotoxins and junk from intestine entering systemic circulation. But that is only an hypothesis that is yet to be tested. I have had rosacea for more than 10 years, and while I know people struggle with way worse thing, it's still a pain in the **** and I don't get why it's so freaking difficult to get to the root cause. My skin condition is still a total enigma to me.

Regarding inflamed intestines I will probably have to do more strict diet experiments, same as you I notice that some foods give me terrible posture. It's just exhausting having to spend so much time and mental bandwidth on these things.

Sounds similar to me. I don't have extreme redness or postules but I flush red really easily, often later in the day. I am a few days in trialing megadosing b1, still early to tell if it's working but it's making me very sleepy. Have you tried high doses b1 or any other b-vitamins in higher doses/IV-administered?

 

[LadyRae]

Sounds similar to me. I don't have extreme redness or postules but I flush red really easily, often later in the day. I am a few days in trialing megadosing b1, still early to tell if it's working but it's making me very sleepy. Have you tried high doses b1 or any other b-vitamins in higher doses/IV-administered?

I also just started taking B1 (Thiamax) allithiamine in addition to the Energin drops and extra biotin I've been taking for years....

Very sleepy, too! What's going on with that? I expected the opposite!

I haven't noticed a change in my skin from B1... nothing holds a candle to the amazing benefits I've seen from Doxycycline.

Too much fruit darkens/redens and swells my visible capillaries though..very annoying

 

[Korven]

Sounds similar to me. I don't have extreme redness or postules but I flush red really easily, often later in the day. I am a few days in trialing megadosing b1, still early to tell if it's working but it's making me very sleepy. Have you tried high doses b1 or any other b-vitamins in higher doses/IV-administered?

Yeah high-dose thiamine helped a lot with energy and fatigue and overall resilience but did nothing for my skin. In fact I think Thiamax increased histamine levels too much which made my skin look worse. But that was probably 2 years ago when I was experimenting with thiamine. Riboflavin is supposed to help with rosacea - Ray mentions it several times in his Rosacea article - but it does nothing for me, even at 400 mg per day. The other B-vitamins also do nothing for my skin.

I am currently trying another spore-based probiotic ( tried B. subtilis before which didn't help), so let's see what happens. So far the only way I can control this problem is through a strict diet, no supplements help.

 

[Androsclerosis]

It is guaranteed that you run on stress hormones. The helpless personality is due to lack of dopamine, thus a low brain energy state. A poor quality sleep is a lack of GABA. If you have intestinal issues like I do, the only cure is a strict diet for a long period of time. Over time your symptoms will improve.
In my case, if I don't follow a strict diet focused on Randle Cycle, my sleep becomes unrefreshing and anhedonia kicks in. It is the only rule that I have to follow.
Try one week of 50 grams of fat and you will notice a big sedation in the first few days. In that moment you will know that you lived on stress hormones. After that period, you will sleep like a baby. I suggest you to do it without starches, because it may create indigestion.
I don't see how coffee can do harm here. If I would drink one, I would take also 50g of sugar with it.

 

[Jonk]

Very sleepy, too! What's going on with that? I expected the opposite!

Yeah me too haha! My hope is that it's helping with metabolism of glucose to energy - taking me out of a sort of excitotoxic state, making me relax and recover. But who knows.

I haven't noticed a change in my skin from B1... nothing holds a candle to the amazing benefits I've seen from Doxycycline.

I like doxy too! Unfortunately mine has a lot of excipients which I rather avoid. But it does feel like it only mitigates some issues short term. I have similar initial good experiences with high dose vitamin C, rhubarb root tea, bamboo shoots and now lately wheat bran. They all work but do feel like they still have some irritating effects on mu intestine. Thinking it's maybe autoimmune in nature, creating excess lactate, ammonia, nitric oxide etc from basically anything that comes in contact with the damaged cells. Hence maybe b1 can help "overriding" this deranged stress response.

Yeah high-dose thiamine helped a lot with energy and fatigue and overall resilience but did nothing for my skin. In fact I think Thiamax increased histamine levels too much which made my skin look worse. But that was probably 2 years ago when I was experimenting with thiamine. Riboflavin is supposed to help with rosacea - Ray mentions it several times in his Rosacea article - but it does nothing for me, even at 400 mg per day. The other B-vitamins also do nothing for my skin.

I am currently trying another spore-based probiotic ( tried B. subtilis before which didn't help), so let's see what happens. So far the only way I can control this problem is through a strict diet, no supplements help.

Okay I understand. Thiamax made my face constantly red without the "ebbs and flows" which is usually the case for me, depending on excitation/intestinal stress. It did however feel like the anxious feeling usually corresponding with the flushing was less than usual. I've heard people say allithiamine requires glutathione to work, but haven't looked into that. Thiamine HCL doesn't have that effect on me at least.

 

[Jennifer]

I can manage this condition with a super strict diet, but as soon as I eat something "bad" (for example I ate a fruit salad a few days ago) I will get flare-ups.

nothing holds a candle to the amazing benefits I've seen from Doxycycline.

Too much fruit darkens/redens and swells my visible capillaries though..very annoying

Same here, except I also developed a bleeding rash all over my face. I looked like a burn victim, no exaggeration. I struggled with it until I cleared the chronic SIBO I had—7 years total. My worse triggers were dairy and most whole fruit—overripe bananas were fine. My doctor put me on Minocycline and it cleared my skin within a day or two, but after I discontinued taking it 6 months later, not only did the redness and rash return, I developed these tiny pustules all over my face and even worse digestion. Anyhow, I wish you luck with your experiment, Korven!

 

[Vanset]

What kind of sleep problems do you experience and what is your diet? Also good luck.

 

[Korven]

Same here, except I also developed a bleeding rash all over my face. I looked like a burn victim, no exaggeration. I struggled with it until I cleared the chronic SIBO I had—7 years total. My worse triggers were dairy and most whole fruit—overripe bananas were fine. My doctor put me on Minocycline and it cleared my skin within a day or two, but after I discontinued taking it 6 months later, not only did the redness and rash return, I developed these tiny pustules all over my face and even worse digestion. Anyhow, I wish you luck with your experiment, Korven!

You left us on a cliffhanger @Jennifer... how did you manage to clear up the SIBO that returned with a vengeance after stopping Minocycline??? I know you've already shared a lot on the forum about how thyroid supplementation helped you, was that the key to finally getting rid of it?

I have not had any good experiences with antibiotics. In fact I had nice skin up until I took antibiotics (doxycycline, penicillin VK I believe) for other health issues in my teen years. Since then my skin has been "messed up" so to speak... of course it could have been something else that coincided with taking the antibiotics but my gut instinct (pun intended) is that antibiotics did something bad with my gut microbiome. And I don't know but antibiotics sort of feels like a "band-aid" solution since it stops working the minute you stop the antibiotics, and then skin issues come back even worse IME.

Thanks as always for your input Jennifer. Your posts always bring insightful perspectives, personally I think you should be elected into the RPF hall of fame

 

[Korven]

What kind of sleep problems do you experience and what is your diet? Also good luck.

I never had any sleep problems until I did carnivore back in 2018, I was so wired on stress hormones and would always wake up at 2 AM and not be able to go back to sleep. At some point I had to stop doing carnivore and added back some carbs, but my sleep continued to deteriorate along with my health (I assume in a vicious cycle).

I have made some progress and my sleep is honestly a lot better nowadays, however it is not like when I was a kid, i.e. where you go to bed and then you are magically teleported to the next day. I don't have any issues with falling asleep but it's more that my sleep is super fragmented. I wake up and twist and turn all night and wake up feeling unrefreshed, tired and bleh.

My diet varies, but typically it consists of :

Beef, lean chicken, eggs, rice noodles, potatoes, oatmeal, broccoli, apples, butter, olive oil, some milk (everything grass-fed, organic, unhomogenized, etc). And that's more or less it. As mentioned any sugar or fruits will cause skin flare-ups so those are a no-no (except for 1 apple per day). No gluten. Sometimes I have periods where I live off of only milk because I crave it, but then I go back to the standard diet.

 

[Korven]

It is guaranteed that you run on stress hormones. The helpless personality is due to lack of dopamine, thus a low brain energy state. A poor quality sleep is a lack of GABA. If you have intestinal issues like I do, the only cure is a strict diet for a long period of time. Over time your symptoms will improve.
In my case, if I don't follow a strict diet focused on Randle Cycle, my sleep becomes unrefreshing and anhedonia kicks in. It is the only rule that I have to follow.
Try one week of 50 grams of fat and you will notice a big sedation in the first few days. In that moment you will know that you lived on stress hormones. After that period, you will sleep like a baby. I suggest you to do it without starches, because it may create indigestion.
I don't see how coffee can do harm here. If I would drink one, I would take also 50g of sugar with it.

I agree it is likely I still have a problem with high stress hormones and/or poor glycogen storage.

I'm just wondering how do you manage to eat a low fat diet without any starches?? It seems impossible to me as I would have to eat so much fruit/sugar. It's an interesting idea however, so thanks, but unfortunately I don't react well to most sugars and fruits so it would be difficult for me to implement.

 

[Androsclerosis]

I agree it is likely I still have a problem with high stress hormones and/or poor glycogen storage.

I'm just wondering how do you manage to eat a low fat diet without any starches?? It seems impossible to me as I would have to eat so much fruit/sugar. It's an interesting idea however, so thanks, but unfortunately I don't react well to most sugars and fruits so it would be difficult for me to implement.

It's truly difficult to follow, but in the end it's worth it.
My substitute for starch is jam, around 900g per day. I eat around 100g per sitting with sparkling water. Sometimes I lower jam and I drink juices.

With this diet I felt in heaven and 100% of the times I deeply dreamed, probably due to a lot of copper. I was always fascinated about how easy life was. My performance at work increased significantly without any extra effort.
Everytime I ate fat, I took 500mg of aspirin in the morning meal, and 1g of niacinamide in the evening to prioritize glucose oxidation and stop completely free fatty acids.

I don't follow this diet anymore, but I will comeback to it in a few days.
Usually it went like this:
8 am - half chocolate + some jam + water
10 am - some jam
12 am - some jam
1:30 pm - Ham + 3 oranges + some jam
Till 6 pm - 400g jam ate and 1 liter of water (for digestion mainly)
8 pm - Some Jam
9:30 pm - 500 mushrooms + 150 g beef + some Jam
10:30 pm - Some Jam

To avoid endotoxin I wait 2h before sleep for digestion to complete.
At some point, so much sparkling water will feel like you are on cypro, constantly hungry.
I always had perfect bowel movements.
The main purpose of this diet is to prioritize the Randle Cycle, to keep endotoxin at minimum and it's good for people with poor glycogen storage.
You must give it a try.