Stop forcing coffee if it's not working for you

barefooter

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Aug 22, 2013
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The general consensus around here is that if coffee is causing you issues you haven't eaten enough, or have liver problems, or poor blood sugar control, or general thyroid problems, or something else that can be fixed, or even coffee may directly fix (ie: your liver). I just want to say that I've finally realized this is terrible advice for myself, and I suspect a number of others that continue to experiment with caffeine despite crashes, anxiety, and a host of other negative effects.

I really should have known better, because even as a teenager I was sensitive to caffeine, and I was healthy, fit, and rarely got sick growing up. I could drink coke without issues, but the few times I had coffee growing up, I later had a comedown and felt very strange/uncomfortable for hours. Throughout my 20s I mostly stayed away from caffeine, but life caught up with me, and I started using coffee to adapt to the demands of work and inadequate sleep, and it was kinda nice that I could feel sorta normal grabbing coffee with friends. Surprisingly, I was actually able to work up to drinking on average 4 cups of coffee during a work day, but I don't think it made my liver better, or me healthier, I just think I developed a tolerance to it, and also a greater ability to shake off the come down anxiety later. In the evening I'd have very little energy, so clearly this situation wasn't working well for me.

I've come to learn through genetic testing that I have the met/met variant of the COMT SNP, which means I have the lowest activity (75% reduced) of the enzyme that degrades dopamine (via methylation) in the prefrontal cortex. Now I don't think genetics are fate, but I do think Peat and some others around here are ignoring the fact that we all have different genetic strengths and weaknesses. And really this gene maps extremely well to my experience, and helps explain so much for me. Like how I can hyper focus so well for hours on end doing highly technical work, and why I'm generally happy even in quite ordinary circumstances as I have a higher baseline of dopamine. It explains my terrible reaction to caffeine, as it drives dopamine way too high, and I have trouble normalizing, causing anxiety.

Part of the reason it was so hard for me to quit caffeine, is even small amounts of it give me euphoria, so I got caught in a negative cycle of enduring the bad for the good. But I've come to realize how crazy that is, it's more akin to someone with a drug addiction, than someone using a supplement to better their health. It's interesting looking back, because I've had similar reactions to other dopaminergic drugs, and finally have an explanation why my friends never suffered the same fate. I took an adderall once in my min 20s and went to a concert with friends, and boy was that a wild ride. I had the most intense euphoria I've ever had in my entire life for the whole day, but then 14 hours later I still felt up. And then I felt horribly anxious, had terrible insomnia, and felt a tad crazy. It was essentially my caffeine experience cranked up to 11.
 

Ulysses

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Feb 13, 2018
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+1, I spent a couple of years trying to "fix" my caffeine metabolism before finally just throwing in the towel. Everybody is different, it doesn't necessarily work for any given person. Listen to your own instincts before anything or anyone else.
 

Blossom

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Thanks for sharing your experience @barefooter. I keep thinking about trialing no coffee. I just had a half cup today and I’m not doing too bad-just a little tired.
 

Quelsatron

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Jan 1, 2020
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484
I recognize myself a lot in what you're writing, starting coffee was genuinely more fun than i ever had being drunk and I have a lot of trouble sleeping with coffee despite a lot of people i know being completely fine downing a cappuccino an hour before bed.

Also, tannins can be harsh on your gut and make you feel bad regardless of the effect of caffeine.
 

youngsinatra

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The general consensus around here is that if coffee is causing you issues you haven't eaten enough, or have liver problems, or poor blood sugar control, or general thyroid problems, or something else that can be fixed, or even coffee may directly fix (ie: your liver). I just want to say that I've finally realized this is terrible advice for myself, and I suspect a number of others that continue to experiment with caffeine despite crashes, anxiety, and a host of other negative effects.

I really should have known better, because even as a teenager I was sensitive to caffeine, and I was healthy, fit, and rarely got sick growing up. I could drink coke without issues, but the few times I had coffee growing up, I later had a comedown and felt very strange/uncomfortable for hours. Throughout my 20s I mostly stayed away from caffeine, but life caught up with me, and I started using coffee to adapt to the demands of work and inadequate sleep, and it was kinda nice that I could feel sorta normal grabbing coffee with friends. Surprisingly, I was actually able to work up to drinking on average 4 cups of coffee during a work day, but I don't think it made my liver better, or me healthier, I just think I developed a tolerance to it, and also a greater ability to shake off the come down anxiety later. In the evening I'd have very little energy, so clearly this situation wasn't working well for me.

I've come to learn through genetic testing that I have the met/met variant of the COMT SNP, which means I have the lowest activity (75% reduced) of the enzyme that degrades dopamine (via methylation) in the prefrontal cortex. Now I don't think genetics are fate, but I do think Peat and some others around here are ignoring the fact that we all have different genetic strengths and weaknesses. And really this gene maps extremely well to my experience, and helps explain so much for me. Like how I can hyper focus so well for hours on end doing highly technical work, and why I'm generally happy even in quite ordinary circumstances as I have a higher baseline of dopamine. It explains my terrible reaction to caffeine, as it drives dopamine way too high, and I have trouble normalizing, causing anxiety.

Part of the reason it was so hard for me to quit caffeine, is even small amounts of it give me euphoria, so I got caught in a negative cycle of enduring the bad for the good. But I've come to realize how crazy that is, it's more akin to someone with a drug addiction, than someone using a supplement to better their health. It's interesting looking back, because I've had similar reactions to other dopaminergic drugs, and finally have an explanation why my friends never suffered the same fate. I took an adderall once in my min 20s and went to a concert with friends, and boy was that a wild ride. I had the most intense euphoria I've ever had in my entire life for the whole day, but then 14 hours later I still felt up. And then I felt horribly anxious, had terrible insomnia, and felt a tad crazy. It was essentially my caffeine experience cranked up to 11.
It will definitely help your situation!
Quick and effective protocol is listed for MTFHR.
 

TheSir

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Jan 6, 2019
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I've used many drugs and substances, none of which have ruined me as much as caffeine. My latest one-month run with it left me with dizziness, brain-zaps, insomnia and anxiety, symptoms from which I have still not fully healed. To make matters worse, the initial period of starting caffeine will feel so good and euphoric, which is why I've relapsed to it dozens of times in spite of trying to quit it for good for the past few years. Two pieces of chocolate will send me to a caffeine binge that will last for several weeks, or until I become a wreck.

The physical and psychological dependency with which caffeine grabs me is so strong that any single day of use will make me feel miserable and worthless the following day unless I indulge again. I had zero problems moderating methamphetamine or amphetamine, compared to caffeine they were easy to deal with.

I've said this before, but if you don't have enough liver enzymes to fully metabolize caffeine by the time you hit the bed, your sleep will suffer and each subsequent day of use you will be a little worse off.
 

-Luke-

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While I think that many problems with caffeine/coffee can be fixed over time, I also think "pushing through" is a terrible idea in general, not just in terms of caffeine. If a substance has great benefits in theory and for other people, but makes you feel worse, your own experience trumps the theory.

I had no problems with caffeine in my early/mid 20s, but also never drank more than 2-3 cups a day. After my health deteriorated around 2014, my experience with coffee has been mostly negative. It tends to amplify the state I'm in at that moment. If I feel stressed, coffee amplifies that stressed state by a lot. If I feel completely relaxed (which doesn't happen that often) I can drink a coffee and it reinforces that state. A month ago or so I didn't sleep well the night before and felt tired and stressed, but although I should have known better, I bought a Coke. For the rest of the day and the next I felt like aliens stole all energy from me like they stole the talent in Space Jam. No other substance has such a strong influence on my well-being than caffeine, and that influence is very negative more often than not.
 

Smelly5

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Part of the reason it was so hard for me to quit caffeine, is even small amounts of it give me euphoria, so I got caught in a negative cycle of enduring the bad for the good. But I've come to realize how crazy that is, it's more akin to someone with a drug addiction, than someone using a supplement to better their health. It's interesting looking back, because I've had similar reactions to other dopaminergic drugs, and finally have an explanation why my friends never suffered the same fate. I took an adderall once in my min 20s and went to a concert with friends, and boy was that a wild ride. I had the most intense euphoria I've ever had in my entire life for the whole day, but then 14 hours later I still felt up. And then I felt horribly anxious, had terrible insomnia, and felt a tad crazy. It was essentially my caffeine experience cranked up to 11.
That's interesting. My first sip of coffee for the day used to give me gnarly euphoria.
I think since adopting the Peat-stye/bioenergetic approach this last year has changed that. So much so it's now too far in the other direction where I don't feel very different at all from coffee. Other than being a bit more alert.
This gives me bias when I hear about someone else getting euphoria from coffee.

That being said, staying away from coffee if you feel better without it seems like a good step.
I remember I used to attempt to quit coffee regularly. Now I don't mind the idea of consuming coffee daily so much.

I also did gene testing for COMT. My perception of these genes is that they aren't very impactful in comparison to diatery/lifestyle changes.
 

Herbie

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Jun 7, 2016
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I've dranken all kinds of coffee but for now I just buy a bottle of milk and pour instant coffee in it with or without sugar and just shake it up and drink it through the day, its a more mild way to drink it, don't get the extremes.
 

aliml

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Apr 17, 2017
Messages
692
CYP1A2 is an important detox enzyme that breaks down toxic chemicals, drugs, hormones, and other products of metabolism in order to eliminate them from your body. It's found mainly in the liver [R, R].

CYP1A2 metabolizes:
  • Caffeine [R]
  • Hormones: melatonin and estrogens (estrone and estradiol) [R]
  • Metabolic waste products, such as bilirubin, and uroporphyrinogen [R]
  • Toxins, such as aromatic heterocyclic amines (in cigarette smoke, charbroiled meat), polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons (in cigarette smoke, diesel exhaust, pollution), and aflatoxin B1 (in contaminated food) [R]
  • Drugs: theophylline, tacrine, atypical antipsychotics, Tylenol (acetaminophen), and MDMA (ecstasy) [R, R, R]
CYP1A2 is the main caffeine-metabolizing enzyme. Your genetic variants may determine up to 75% of CYP1A2 enzyme activity, while food, supplements, and smoking are responsible for the rest [R, R].

1650204373405.png
 

amd

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Some recommend decaf coffee that's low histamine and mold free (not easy to find) for those with histamine intolerance (HIT).

Another option is not to ..
 

Cuberunner

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I've been forcing coffee by taking pepto bismol with it to mitigate the ibs-d symptoms. It also is bad for my histamine intolerance but I am hooked on the spike in dopamine. I should quit soon.
 
A

Adf

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The general consensus around here is that if coffee is causing you issues you haven't eaten enough, or have liver problems, or poor blood sugar control, or general thyroid problems, or something else that can be fixed, or even coffee may directly fix (ie: your liver). I just want to say that I've finally realized this is terrible advice for myself, and I suspect a number of others that continue to experiment with caffeine despite crashes, anxiety, and a host of other negative effects.

I really should have known better, because even as a teenager I was sensitive to caffeine, and I was healthy, fit, and rarely got sick growing up. I could drink coke without issues, but the few times I had coffee growing up, I later had a comedown and felt very strange/uncomfortable for hours. Throughout my 20s I mostly stayed away from caffeine, but life caught up with me, and I started using coffee to adapt to the demands of work and inadequate sleep, and it was kinda nice that I could feel sorta normal grabbing coffee with friends. Surprisingly, I was actually able to work up to drinking on average 4 cups of coffee during a work day, but I don't think it made my liver better, or me healthier, I just think I developed a tolerance to it, and also a greater ability to shake off the come down anxiety later. In the evening I'd have very little energy, so clearly this situation wasn't working well for me.

I've come to learn through genetic testing that I have the met/met variant of the COMT SNP, which means I have the lowest activity (75% reduced) of the enzyme that degrades dopamine (via methylation) in the prefrontal cortex. Now I don't think genetics are fate, but I do think Peat and some others around here are ignoring the fact that we all have different genetic strengths and weaknesses. And really this gene maps extremely well to my experience, and helps explain so much for me. Like how I can hyper focus so well for hours on end doing highly technical work, and why I'm generally happy even in quite ordinary circumstances as I have a higher baseline of dopamine. It explains my terrible reaction to caffeine, as it drives dopamine way too high, and I have trouble normalizing, causing anxiety.

Part of the reason it was so hard for me to quit caffeine, is even small amounts of it give me euphoria, so I got caught in a negative cycle of enduring the bad for the good. But I've come to realize how crazy that is, it's more akin to someone with a drug addiction, than someone using a supplement to better their health. It's interesting looking back, because I've had similar reactions to other dopaminergic drugs, and finally have an explanation why my friends never suffered the same fate. I took an adderall once in my min 20s and went to a concert with friends, and boy was that a wild ride. I had the most intense euphoria I've ever had in my entire life for the whole day, but then 14 hours later I still felt up. And then I felt horribly anxious, had terrible insomnia, and felt a tad crazy. It was essentially my caffeine experience cranked up to 11.

There are sound theories as to why constant caffeine consumption can be counter productive to people, aside from genetics affecting the process of caffeine, although that plays probably the biggest part. I can compile a list to support a theory.

- Adenosine is a chemical your brain produces that makes you tired and prepares you for a restful sleep
- A healthy adenosine system is said to provide the most restful, healing sleep patterns
- Adenosine builds up slowly from the moment you wake up, until there is so much built up at the end of the day, you must sleep.
- While you are asleep, your body utilises and depletes the adenosine to enter deep and restful sleep
- Caffeine binds to and blocks adenosine
- Caffeine does not stop adenosine production, it just blocks it, so adenosine is still building up
- This causes the caffeine crash, when the adenosine blocking wears off, you now have an abundance of adenosine making you tired
- Even trace amounts of caffeine still bind to some adenosine over long periods.
- Half life of caffeine tends to be 5 hours, if you have 200mg of caffeine at 12pm, you may still have 100mg at 5pm, 50 mg at 10pm, 25mg at 1am the next day.
- This caffeine is still affecting your adenosine system, caffeine bound to adenosine stops it from being used even while you sleep.
- This can cause you to wake up and still have unused adenosine that should have been used during your sleep
- Since there is unused adenosine, and the previous days caffeine is freshly worn off, this will cause you to wake up groggy and lethargic, until you get your coffee fix to block the adenosine still in your system
- Doing this over a period of time can mean your brain slowly builds up more and more adenosine that is not utilized during sleep, creating an overdependence on coffee just to operate.

I have struggled with this myself, as I developed a habitual ritual to work-out only after drinking a pre workout or coffee, even if I get home from work at 4pm.

It's very very difficult for me to even desire to work-out, if I don't follow my ritual of drinking a pre-workout.
 

FrostedShores

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I gave up coffee. I'm not sure if it's the tannins or what, but it wrecks my gut every time I drink it.

I handle caffeine without a problem, though. I now take caffeine pills in place of coffee.
 

HealingBoy

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Feb 7, 2019
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The worst here is when you mix coffee and pregnenolone ... I swear I prefer to take SSRIs, it would probably make me less angry, irritable and suicidal.
GABA antagonism is not fun.
 

SamYo123

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Oct 4, 2019
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I gave up coffee. I'm not sure if it's the tannins or what, but it wrecks my gut every time I drink it.

I handle caffeine without a problem, though. I now take caffeine pills in place of coffee.
Wrecks your gut, whats your symptoms?
 

TheSir

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Jan 6, 2019
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Doing this over a period of time can mean your brain slowly builds up more and more adenosine that is not utilized during sleep, creating an overdependence on coffee just to operate.
A side effect of the adenosine buildup and the subsequent receptor changes is that your brain becomes less dopaminergic because adenosine and dopamine are interconnected. Many on the forum have shared how coffee would make them feel blissful all the while killing their motivation to do anything.
 

cupofcoffee

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Jul 31, 2020
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A side effect of the adenosine buildup and the subsequent receptor changes is that your brain becomes less dopaminergic because adenosine and dopamine are interconnected. Many on the forum have shared how coffee would make them feel blissful all the while killing their motivation to do anything.
i can confirm
 

InChristAlone

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Sep 13, 2012
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I'm one of those big responders to caffeine as well. Can be very euphoric. Even from a small amount. I'm on cypro right now which blocks a little bit of dopamine making me crave caffeine and just having the smallest amount feels amazing.
 

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