Tenacity's Coffee Experiment (Any Pointers?)

[Tenacity]

About a week ago I became interested in caffeine for its ability to clean the liver and improve neurosteroid status. Energy levels are often a problem for me once I bring my calorie intake below 3300-3500kcal, but I also begin to gain weight at that level. I wanted to find a point where I am energised and weight stable simultaneously. So I begun drinking more coffee, to clean the liver in order to store more glycogen (for energy), and to raise the metabolic rate (for weight stability). For the record, I'm a young male, 5'11", currently around 71-72kg. I'm reasonably lean, been packing on some muscle since starting Peat a couple of years ago.

I'll outline the basic diet now, for context: spread out in four meals, about 8 cups of milk, 5 cups of OJ, and the remaining of the 3300 kcal in whole fruit (melons, peaches, grapes and dates are my favourites). I'll have liver and spinach every other day for their nutrients. I also took 325mg of aspirin daily.

I tracked my coffee, calorie and weight change in a table. Long story short, I managed to get up to 640mg of caffeine divided into three doses (assuming that 1tsp of instant coffee = 75mg of caffeine) with no adrenaline symptoms, and my weight fluctuated between 71-72.6kg, starting at 72kg and ending at 71kg (I'm guessing most of the fluctuation was water weight).

All of that is fine and dandy with me, apart from one thing. I think my cortisol has gotten sky high since the beginning of the experiment. I've been lethargic and short tempered, and my acne has gone from barely noticeable to mildly annoying, and my pulse has not been very high after meals. Did I increase my metabolic rate so much that I was making myself hypoglycaemic?

Essentially, what I'm asking is if it's worth continuing the experiment (I originally set my sights on the 1200mg daily intake outlined by @haidut in several of his threads on caffeine), or if I should stop now. How has everyone else's experience with high caffeine intake been? Should I start dumping decent amounts of white sugar into my coffee to avoid the (potential) hypoglycaemia?

 

[James IV]

Bringing calories down and/or caffeine up will increase the need to mobilize tissue in the body for energy (fat,muscle,etc), therefore cortisol will be higher.

 

[Optimus]

It's been only a week, wouldn't detoxing of liver produce some of those -ve effects? Also some suggest taking b1 during the liver cleanse. Am interested in how your experiment goes.

 

[Tenacity]

Bringing calories down and/or caffeine up will increase the need to mobilize tissue in the body for energy (fat,muscle,etc), therefore cortisol will be higher.

So I've effecitvely placed myself in a calorie deficit? Perhaps I'll add honey to the coffee and see how my weight changes.

 

[Tenacity]

It's been only a week, wouldn't detoxing of liver produce some of those -ve effects? Also some suggest taking b1 during the liver cleanse. Am interested in how your experiment goes.

Yeah, it's only been a week. But I've seen a thread saying that tolerance is gained in 4 days. My diet provides a lot of the b-vitamins - I've never tried b-vitamin supplementation before.

I have a few days worth of data. I'll copy the table here soon.

 

[kondevantoni]

High caffeine (above 700mg) will suppress your appetite, so it makes it hard to maintain calories. I did 1200mg with pills and found out its true. Now i take one pill (200mg), 4 tsp instant and 2 regular coffees a day and no problem to eat 4500 cal.

 

[raypeatclips]

Bringing calories down and/or caffeine up will increase the need to mobilize tissue in the body for energy (fat,muscle,etc), therefore cortisol will be higher.

I've thought about this before. I know caffeine raises the metabolism and the need for calories. Peat said when he took thyroid his need for calories dropped from about 6000 to 3000 and as caffeine is a thyroid mimetic how come it would not have a similar effect?

 

[Tenacity]

Here was the data I collected for the past week.

I'm going to start adding 50g of honey to each coffee, and see how that changes things.

EDIT: The top date (17/6/31 ????) should say 31/5/17.

 

[theLaw]

Just a few observations:

1. Based on the studies that Haidut posted you'll probably need to get above 800mg/day for a couple of weeks to see a major difference (i had a similar experience with 600+ for two weeks). With coffee, you are only guessing about the caffeine content, and you might be way off, so powder might be a more precise option for this type of protocol.

2. For cleaning out the liver, K2 can also expedite the process

Improving Liver Function Before Going Full Peat? Dealing With Abdominal Fat

Caffeine Reverses Stress, Insulin Resistance, Hypertension

3. Niacinamide and Thiamine taken with caffeine can mitigate the stress response allowing higher doses in shorter time

4. Protein looks a little low based on your first post. You might consider adding gelatin up to 50G per day (cheap and healthy).

Cheers!

 

[Tenacity]

Just a few observations:

1. Based on the studies that Haidut posted you'll probably need to get above 800mg/day for a couple of weeks to see a major difference (i had a similar experience with 600+ for two weeks). With coffee, you are only guessing about the caffeine content, and you might be way off, so powder might be a more precise option for this type of protocol.

2. For cleaning out the liver, K2 can also expedite the process

Improving Liver Function Before Going Full Peat? Dealing With Abdominal Fat

Caffeine Reverses Stress, Insulin Resistance, Hypertension

3. Niacinamide and Thiamine taken with caffeine can mitigate the stress response allowing higher doses in shorter time

4. Protein looks a little low based on your first post. You might consider adding gelatin up to 50G per day (cheap and healthy).

Cheers!

Thank you for the observations! Looks like I may need to shell out for supplements to really see what caffeine can do. I'm already getting about 100g of protein daily, you think much more is required?

 

[raypeatclips]

I'm sure haidut has said 200mg a day continuously can clear the liver after a few weeks. You didn't get any adrenaline symptoms from 225mg so why not stick to that for a bit?

 

[Orion]

I am attempting the same right now, at 350mg caffeine per day, increase 100mg per week.

Using 500mg B3 and 900mg B1 total amounts, both spread out during the day, seems to be suppressing lactate/cortisol/adrenaline well.

Also using K2 (10mg) and Defibron (20 drops).

 

[Tenacity]

I'm sure haidut has said 200mg a day continuously can clear the liver after a few weeks. You didn't get any adrenaline symptoms from 225mg so why not stick to that for a bit?

That amount was what I was taking before the experiment. I guess I just want to see what is possible at higher doses, especially given that progesterone, pregnenolone and allopregnanolone increase by quite a bit at 1200mg.

I am attempting the same right now, at 350mg caffeine per day, increase 100mg per week.

Using 500mg B3 and 900mg B1 total amounts, both spread out during the day, seems to be suppressing lactate/cortisol/adrenaline well.

Also using K2 (10mg) and Defibron (20 drops).

The extra supplements do seem to help quite a bit...

I've taken a day off of the experiment (was at a social do and ate a fair bit of starch), but I've tried 3tsp of coffee (approx. 225mg) with 50g of honey and I feel like a completely different person. Pulse and temps are great. I think I'm going to add 15g of honey for each tsp I consume from here on out.

 

[theLaw]

Thank you for the observations! Looks like I may need to shell out for supplements to really see what caffeine can do. I'm already getting about 100g of protein daily, you think much more is required?

Might be worth kicking it up to 125-150G for a week to see if it makes a difference. Ray has suggested 80-100/day, but there are many conflicting reports here about how much is necessary.

 

[theLaw]

I'm sure haidut has said 200mg a day continuously can clear the liver after a few weeks. You didn't get any adrenaline symptoms from 225mg so why not stick to that for a bit?

Personally, I tried 200mg/day for months with no noticeable improvement, but Haidut has posted studies with this claim, so perhaps there are some mitigating factors beyond caffeine intake.

 

[Regina]

Personally, I tried 200mg/day for months with no noticeable improvement, but Haidut has posted studies with this claim, so perhaps there are some mitigating factors beyond caffeine intake.

Yea, I did not make any strides with insulin sensitivity until I bumped caffeine up above 500mg daily.

 

[beta pandemic]

Energy levels are often a problem for me once I bring my calorie intake below 3300-3500kcal, but I also begin to gain weight at that level.

??????

[/QUOTE]3300 kcal in whole fruit (melons, peaches, grapes and dates are my favourites). I'll have liver and spinach every other day for their nutrients. I also took 325mg of aspirin daily.[/QUOTE]


3300 calories in whole fruit??? where in the world do you live? how are you able to consistently get in that volume of whole fruit/liquid daily you must be grazing like a cow all day.

seems unsustainable long term

 

[James IV]

So I've effecitvely placed myself in a calorie deficit? Perhaps I'll add honey to the coffee and see how my weight changes.

Yes. I believe so. Everyone of the figure competitors at my gym use caffeine to break fat loss platues when dieting for a show, so it appears it does increase energy needs.

 

[James IV]

I've thought about this before. I know caffeine raises the metabolism and the need for calories. Peat said when he took thyroid his need for calories dropped from about 6000 to 3000 and as caffeine is a thyroid mimetic how come it would not have a similar effect?

I've read that, and I am not sure Ray is talking about weight maintenance in that statement, rather than speaking about maintaining healthy markers of metabolism. Ive meant to ask him that.
I find it extremely difficult to believe he dropped his caloric intake by %50 and saw no changes in body composition. IIRC he changed from doing extreme amounts of labor to becoming more sedentary around the same he began on thyroid, so that would be a factor.

 

[Tenacity]

Yes. I believe so. Everyone of the figure competitors at my gym use caffeine to break fat loss platues when dieting for a show, so it appears it does increase energy needs.

And how are the competitors when they go through this regimen? Any noticeable changes in mood?

I knew caffeine could increase the metabolic rate but I never expected it to be this marked. After I had the honey coffee yesterday I felt good for a few hours, but I soon became irritable and snappy. I think the amount I was taking just stimulates metabolism far too much.

So I'm content with my experiment now. I think I'm going to take 3tsp each of coffee, tea and cocoa daily, spread throughout the day, for a max caffeine intake of about 400mg. I don't think my glycogen or my lifestyle (or my relationship!) is capable of anything more than that right now.

??????

3300 kcal in whole fruit (melons, peaches, grapes and dates are my favourites). I'll have liver and spinach every other day for their nutrients. I also took 325mg of aspirin daily.

3300 calories in whole fruit??? where in the world do you live? how are you able to consistently get in that volume of whole fruit/liquid daily you must be grazing like a cow all day.

seems unsustainable long term

You misquoted me. I said the remaining of the 3300kcal (after the milk and juice I mentioned). That comes out to about 2000kcal in whole fruit. Dried dates are cheap for their energy content, and I use tinned peaches to keep the cost down. Melons also are quite high in sugar.