I am QUITTING COFFEE for 100 days

[Apple]

I realized the previous post may come off as me not wanting input or advice here, that was not the intention. Any suggestions on how to eat a more balanced and diverse diet (without experiencing negative symptoms) are appreciated! So far the only thing that helps is to eat a pretty strict diet and avoid offending foods.

Ray Peat: - It takes a few days for the intestine to change its rhythm of peristalsis, and a couple of weeks for the enzymes to adjust to a change of foods.

 

[Korven]

I was inspired by this thread and was hoping that maybe quiting coffee would relieve some of my issues. I am off the coffee now for 3 weeks, and I notice absolutely no difference whatsoever.

How long would you recommend to stop?

I am probably not the most qualified person to answer your question but I would give it at least a few months. Some people at r/decaf say that the benefits really kick in at around month 5-10... but I dunno, it just sounds a little farfetched to me that it would take that long to recover and feel good?

It seems to me that quitting coffee/caffeine isn't a cure-all, but it does make it easier to troubleshoot and pinpoint what the underlying issues are. As I mentioned in my previous post, if I eat "bad" foods I will get gut issues which makes me feel terrible. I then use coffee for symptom relief. So coffee is not the culprit here, it's just a means of self-medication *for me.

With that said, I noticed immediate benefits from not drinking coffee such as increased energy levels, improved sleep, feeling more relaxed in social situations, easier to focus on tasks, better vision, being more cheerful, and the most surprising benefit is that I am able to write academic texts more effortlessly (before finding the right words would be an immense struggle... I could sit for 5 minutes just trying to string a sentence together).

If you haven't noticed ANY difference from quitting coffee for 3 weeks then its probably not the main issue and waiting for another 10 months seems futile. If I were you I would probably still stay decaffed and investigate other things. Its one less variable to worry about. At the same time I fully understand cravings for coffee just to feel a bit better temporarily.

 

[Peachy]

This experiment has been really enlightening so far.

So I managed to go without coffee for 2+ weeks again. I have noticed a TON of benefits and will probably write about those in another post. But what I wanted to write about is that I started eating lots of starches again (doing a no dairy experiment) and have gradually started experiencing major gut irritation/endotoxin and serotonin symptoms and cravings for bad stuff. Foolishly I thought I would be able to digest starches such as pasta and bread and oatmeal without coffee in the diet as coffee has been shown to inhibit pancreatic amylase... but alas, no. Maybe I have a persistent gut infection that feeds of starches or fibers in specific starches.

I am 100% sure this is gut related as it always start with diffuse pain in the colon and some bloating, followed by brain fog, flu like symptoms, and an uncomfortable, stressed feeling. This gradually builds and becomes unbearable to the point where I have to get relief somehow (drugs, coffee, porn). I am thinking this has been a problem my entire life but it manifested in different ways when I was younger.

So it seems like it's NOT coffee that is causing these physical and mental issues. What I have observed is that when I feel this crappy I NEED to do something to self-medicate and take away the pain and coffee is perfect for this. is a way to get short term relief (possibly through dopamine/opioid boost, pooping or endotoxin antagonism?) but is not the root cause as mentioned above. If I continue eating the wrong gut irritating foods AND drink coffee I end up in a vicious stress cycle.

I am pretty sure the culprit is either eating gluten and/or starches and fermentable fiber. The PROBLEM is that I need a ton of calories or otherwise I suffer symptoms of under-eating. 5 liters of milk per day diet is okay but seems to give me some skin problems so I am not sure what to do. I may stick with just rice and potatoes and see if those are okay starch sources for me.

TL;DR: I think I have been drinking so much coffee to mask other health issues.

This is relatable. I feel like that from eating too much gluten - like an uncomfortable shell of myself. And yeah, coffee masks it somewhat which in a way perpetuates it.

I do well with gf starch though and find I need it to keep glycogen stores up. I think this is key to tolerating coffee better. I can skip starch at breakfast with a big meal - eggs, heap of yogurt, fruit, juice, sweetener. That curbs the caffeine side effects. But at some point in the day I need starch

 

[Mll777]

I am probably not the most qualified person to answer your question but I would give it at least a few months. Some people at r/decaf say that the benefits really kick in at around month 5-10... but I dunno, it just sounds a little farfetched to me that it would take that long to recover and feel good?

It seems to me that quitting coffee/caffeine isn't a cure-all, but it does make it easier to troubleshoot and pinpoint what the underlying issues are. As I mentioned in my previous post, if I eat "bad" foods I will get gut issues which makes me feel terrible. I then use coffee for symptom relief. So coffee is not the culprit here, it's just a means of self-medication *for me.

With that said, I noticed immediate benefits from not drinking coffee such as increased energy levels, improved sleep, feeling more relaxed in social situations, easier to focus on tasks, better vision, being more cheerful, and the most surprising benefit is that I am able to write academic texts more effortlessly (before finding the right words would be an immense struggle... I could sit for 5 minutes just trying to string a sentence together).

If you haven't noticed ANY difference from quitting coffee for 3 weeks then its probably not the main issue and waiting for another 10 months seems futile. If I were you I would probably still stay decaffed and investigate other things. Its one less variable to worry about. At the same time I fully understand cravings for coffee just to feel a bit better temporarily.

Thanks, I appriciate your time and insight!

Your reply made me think, actually the last days I have less issue seeing. And the fact that I use some other supplements as well, so I don't have a clear baseline of how I feel without them and the coffee.

On a funny note, I almost never remember my dreams and the last weeks I have had several dreams about coffee!! :P
In the dreams I was aware that I shouldn't drink coffee, that awarness probably woke me up which helps to reminder the dream.

 

[DBCoast]

@Korven Any updates on the coffe use? I’m currently weaning myself off.

 

[LadyRae]

I've quit all coffee for weeks at a time, throughout my life (I'm 45), I have noticed no difference at all. Last August I went almost a whole month without coffee or caffeine when I was backpacking in the North Cascades...

Actually I will sometimes warm up a cup of coffee in the middle of the night if I wake up and it immediately puts me back to sleep.... Possibly any warm mug of yumminess would do this.

Maybe caffeine has no effect on me?

It's very interesting to read everyone's experiences.

 

[DBCoast]

I've quit all coffee for weeks at a time, throughout my life (I'm 45), I have noticed no difference at all. Last August I went almost a whole month without coffee or caffeine when I was backpacking in the North Cascades...

Actually I will sometimes warm up a cup of coffee in the middle of the night if I wake up and it immediately puts me back to sleep.... Possibly any warm mug of yumminess would do this.

Maybe caffeine has no effect on me?

It's very interesting to read everyone's experiences.

That’s interesting. I have an issue with it for sure. Probably because of the stress hormones I’ve been running on every morning for years. It definitely makes me feel way worse. Good at first, of course, but ultimately worse. And the more I drink, the more I need, etc, etc, and it snowballs and I feel terrible from it.

I quit once for a few months and felt a lot “smoother” energy and mood-wise. I know there are a lot of pro-coffee ideas here, but I don’t think it’s good for my current situation. Plus, I don’t like the feeling of being dependent on it. I’ll drive to the store at 6am on a freezing morning to get a bag of coffee when I would much rather relax in a cozy house.

Btw, my father-in-law used to drink so much coffee, he would wake up in the middle of the night and had to drink coffee to get back to sleep!

 

[LadyRae]

That’s interesting. I have an issue with it for sure. Probably because of the stress hormones I’ve been running on every morning for years. It definitely makes me feel way worse. Good at first, of course, but ultimately worse. And the more I drink, the more I need, etc, etc, and it snowballs and I feel terrible from it.

I quit once for a few months and felt a lot “smoother” energy and mood-wise. I know there are a lot of pro-coffee ideas here, but I don’t think it’s good for my current situation. Plus, I don’t like the feeling of being dependent on it. I’ll drive to the store at 6am on a freezing morning to get a bag of coffee when I would much rather relax in a cozy house.

Btw, my father-in-law used to drink so much coffee, he would wake up in the middle of the night and had to drink coffee to get back to sleep!

When I was intermittent fasting and exercising too much, coffee would make me super sweaty in the morning. Stress for sure! These days I don't drink coffee right when I wake up, it's usually about an hour to two after I wake up and I like to have fruit with it. I'll mix in a scoop of collagen powder, coconut creamer, and today I had salted pineapple alongside.

I have read that caffeine can mimic Adderall for people who may have ADHD symptoms. Although I'm not convinced that that is actually a real thing, other than lumping behaviors together into a "condition" just because they don't align with the status quo. And I'm not sure what mechanism is it play but I know I'm not the only one that gets calming effects from coffee.

 

[Jonk]

When I was intermittent fasting and exercising too much, coffee would make me super sweaty in the morning. Stress for sure! These days I don't drink coffee right when I wake up, it's usually about an hour to two after I wake up and I like to have fruit with it. I'll mix in a scoop of collagen powder, coconut creamer, and today I had salted pineapple alongside.

I have read that caffeine can mimic Adderall for people who may have ADHD symptoms. Although I'm not convinced that that is actually a real thing, other than lumping behaviors together into a "condition" just because they don't align with the status quo. And I'm not sure what mechanism is it play but I know I'm not the only one that gets calming effects from coffee.

Interestingly I just read this PDF about liver detox, http://balancedconcepts.net/liver_phases_detox_paths.pdf.
"Does even the smallest bit of caffeine keep you wide awake at night? You could have sluggish phase I detox. Can you guzzle two cups of coffee in the afternoon and sleep just fine? Your phase I enzymes might be over active."

Maybe has something to do with the so called "phase I" part of the liver detox process.

 

[Korven]

@Korven Any updates on the coffe use? I’m currently weaning myself off.

Yeah... I guess the silence speaks for itself, I am back on 1 cup of coffee per day again. I find that 1 cup in the morning is an "okay" compromise between decaf and a-lot-of-caf, but to be honest I do prefer the feeling of being strictly decaffeinated. And as I mentioned before, it is quite difficult to allow yourself just 1 cup and not have any more coffees throughout the day. In reality 1 cup per day often becomes 3-4 cups per day at which point sleep suffers greatly and I have to cut back down again. Would prefer to not be on this caffeine up-and-down rollercoaster.

I had a couple good weeks of being totally off coffee/caffeine, but it is SO easy to get sucked back in. Well, at least for me, I am sure some people have no problems with quitting!

The main obstacle for me is that I don't feel all that great on some days. I have had CFS symptoms for years, and while things have certainly improved, I still find it quite difficult to keep stresses of everyday life at an acceptable level. Sometimes I wake up and feel like ***t ("sick fatigue" feeling you mentioned) even when I haven't been exercising, stressing out or working long hours etc., and it is during these moments when it becomes extremely difficult not to reach for a cup of coffee to get me going in the morning. Coffee gives me a 'change in state' and seems to reduce inflammation sensations in my body and brain (could be the chlorogenic acids in coffee), but obviously it doesn't address any root cause to the problem, whatever that problem is.

Essentially, I use coffee as a means of self-medication whenever I feel sick, inflamed, exhausted, bored, or depressed.

Would I be better off in the long-term if I quit? Yes... I do think so. I remember feeling cheerful when I didn't have any coffee, and it was a strange but awesome feeling as I haven't been the most cheerful person since I got sick. I would like to give decaf a go again this year!

On a side note I wonder if I have a serious oxalate issue, whenever I feel CFS symptoms flaring I also get this unpleasant "grains of sand in my neck" sensation which I read could be related to oxalates. I ate a ton of potatoes during a couple of weeks and then got this neck problem and inflammation feeling. I am trying to be more mindful about oxalate intake and to include some calcium every day.

I also bought testosterone and DHT and will experiment with those to see if they can give me some energy and health back.

 

[Korven]

This is relatable. I feel like that from eating too much gluten - like an uncomfortable shell of myself. And yeah, coffee masks it somewhat which in a way perpetuates it.

I do well with gf starch though and find I need it to keep glycogen stores up. I think this is key to tolerating coffee better. I can skip starch at breakfast with a big meal - eggs, heap of yogurt, fruit, juice, sweetener. That curbs the caffeine side effects. But at some point in the day I need starch

Thanks @Peachy I forgot to reply to your message!

It's interesting that we have the same reaction to gluten. I am happy to report that since I quit gluten I haven't had any more of those horrible mental states! I feel more comfortable in my own body, no anxiety, no gut distress or pain, don't have any urges to watch porn, and so on. I can also say that not eating gluten is a piece of cake (pun intended) compared to not drinking coffee. It find that it is super easy to stick with a habit when you notice clear improvements.

And yes I also respond better to coffee when I have "carb loaded" with oatmeal or some other starch beforehand. In fact I pretty much always respond well to coffee, it makes me feel amazing, which is why I struggle to quit.

 

[Jonk]

Yeah... I guess the silence speaks for itself, I am back on 1 cup of coffee per day again. I find that 1 cup in the morning is an "okay" compromise between decaf and a-lot-of-caf, but to be honest I do prefer the feeling of being strictly decaffeinated. And as I mentioned before, it is quite difficult to allow yourself just 1 cup and not have any more coffees throughout the day. In reality 1 cup per day often becomes 3-4 cups per day at which point sleep suffers greatly and I have to cut back down again. Would prefer to not be on this caffeine up-and-down rollercoaster.

I had a couple good weeks of being totally off coffee/caffeine, but it is SO easy to get sucked back in. Well, at least for me, I am sure some people have no problems with quitting!

The main obstacle for me is that I don't feel all that great on some days. I have had CFS symptoms for years, and while things have certainly improved, I still find it quite difficult to keep stresses of everyday life at an acceptable level. Sometimes I wake up and feel like ***t ("sick fatigue" feeling you mentioned) even when I haven't been exercising, stressing out or working long hours etc., and it is during these moments when it becomes extremely difficult not to reach for a cup of coffee to get me going in the morning. Coffee gives me a 'change in state' and seems to reduce inflammation sensations in my body and brain (could be the chlorogenic acids in coffee), but obviously it doesn't address any root cause to the problem, whatever that problem is.

Essentially, I use coffee as a means of self-medication whenever I feel sick, inflamed, exhausted, bored, or depressed.

Would I be better off in the long-term if I quit? Yes... I do think so. I remember feeling cheerful when I didn't have any coffee, and it was a strange but awesome feeling as I haven't been the most cheerful person since I got sick. I would like to give decaf a go again this year!

On a side note I wonder if I have a serious oxalate issue, whenever I feel CFS symptoms flaring I also get this unpleasant "grains of sand in my neck" sensation which I read could be related to oxalates. I ate a ton of potatoes during a couple of weeks and then got this neck problem and inflammation feeling. I am trying to be more mindful about oxalate intake and to include some calcium every day.

I also bought testosterone and DHT and will experiment with those to see if they can give me some energy and health back.

Hey man, some quick thoughts, I've recently read up some about liver detox and its "2 phases". I think coffee speeds up phase 1, which can cause problems if phase 2 can't keep up. If you're not at all read up about it, basically the first phase makes toxins water soluble, and in many cases make them more harmful, but which is necessary for the phase 2 to conjugate them before excretion. Maybe it can be a theory of why you always want to reach for a cup of coffee, it initially helps the livers detoxifying ability, but because of the fast acting phase 1 the caffeine quickly becomes metabolized by the liver, making you want more and eventually overburdening the phase 2.

"So, you may activate Phase 1 simply by your morning coffee and your evening glass of wine, yet if you have a sluggish Phase 2, you could suffer the results of these “toxins” hours later. This may explain your insomnia, brain fog, or hot flashes, for example."

Functional Medicine Detox Phases 1, 2, and 3


The link is just something I googled really quick, but maybe spikes some interest. Again, I have very limited knowledge about the subject, but it's something I've found interesting since finding a PDF (see below) posted by Amazoniac in some other thread a while back, regarding liver health.

 

[Limon9]

<liver detox phases etc>

"Previous studies indicate that the combination of cafestol and kahweol promotes glutathione S-transferase activation and increases several other phase II xenobiotic metabolizing enzymes such as uridine 5′-diphospho-glucuronosyltransferase and quinine oxidoreductase1 activities [42–44,46–50]. Extensive studies have confirmed that cafestol and kahweol can intervene Keap1/Nrf2/ARE signaling pathways, and induce the expression of phase II detoxifying enzymes, antioxidant proteins and Nrf2, thus blocking several carcinogenic stages"

. . .

... kahweol promoted HO-1 expression, a phase II antioxidant enzyme. In later research, they confirmed that cafestol also showed similar ability to inhibit OCs differentiation and bone resorbing activity [91]. Same as kahweol, cafestol suppress NFATc1, Src and cathepsin K expression. It is worth noting that kahweol has a stronger inhibitory effect on osteoclastogenesis than cafestol. (R)

Coffee diterpene content is strongly influenced by preparation method.

 

[Jonk]

Coffee diterpene content is strongly influenced by preparation method.

Interesting, thanks for giving some nuance

 

[Limon9]

Coffee becomes more like an energy drink the more it's filtered in my opinion. If someone was limiting themselves to 1-2 cups per day it might make sense to favor something like a french press, which introduces the beneficial fat-soluble compounds.

 

[DBCoast]

Yeah... I guess the silence speaks for itself, I am back on 1 cup of coffee per day again. I find that 1 cup in the morning is an "okay" compromise between decaf and a-lot-of-caf, but to be honest I do prefer the feeling of being strictly decaffeinated. And as I mentioned before, it is quite difficult to allow yourself just 1 cup and not have any more coffees throughout the day. In reality 1 cup per day often becomes 3-4 cups per day at which point sleep suffers greatly and I have to cut back down again. Would prefer to not be on this caffeine up-and-down rollercoaster.

I had a couple good weeks of being totally off coffee/caffeine, but it is SO easy to get sucked back in. Well, at least for me, I am sure some people have no problems with quitting!

The main obstacle for me is that I don't feel all that great on some days. I have had CFS symptoms for years, and while things have certainly improved, I still find it quite difficult to keep stresses of everyday life at an acceptable level. Sometimes I wake up and feel like ***t ("sick fatigue" feeling you mentioned) even when I haven't been exercising, stressing out or working long hours etc., and it is during these moments when it becomes extremely difficult not to reach for a cup of coffee to get me going in the morning. Coffee gives me a 'change in state' and seems to reduce inflammation sensations in my body and brain (could be the chlorogenic acids in coffee), but obviously it doesn't address any root cause to the problem, whatever that problem is.

Essentially, I use coffee as a means of self-medication whenever I feel sick, inflamed, exhausted, bored, or depressed.

Would I be better off in the long-term if I quit? Yes... I do think so. I remember feeling cheerful when I didn't have any coffee, and it was a strange but awesome feeling as I haven't been the most cheerful person since I got sick. I would like to give decaf a go again this year!

On a side note I wonder if I have a serious oxalate issue, whenever I feel CFS symptoms flaring I also get this unpleasant "grains of sand in my neck" sensation which I read could be related to oxalates. I ate a ton of potatoes during a couple of weeks and then got this neck problem and inflammation feeling. I am trying to be more mindful about oxalate intake and to include some calcium every day.

I also bought testosterone and DHT and will experiment with those to see if they can give me some energy and health back.

I could have written the exact thing regarding my current relationship with coffee. I don’t think it’s good given my situation, and overall I would be better off to completely stop, but it’s so damn hard. And, it helps so much with that crushing sick fatigue in the mornings. I don’t know what to do. I’m at around 1.5 cups per day. I may wean off, not sure. Thanks for the update!

 

[Cow]

I love it, but have never tolerated coffee well, due to it causing overstimulation that would lead to mania and drinking and worse sleep issues. (I have chronic life long insomnia.) I also got a painful stiff neck and body bracing and twitches from it. I thought coffee was evil and could not believe people drank it every day! It was part of an addiction cycle for me and I eventually swore it off entirely at some point in my early 30s.

I am 57 now a have found that since adding carbs back into my diet and Peating the last couple years, I have been able to have coffee again and my response to it has changed dramatically. I no longer get wild energy swings from it. Some days I feel engergized by the coffee and some days not much at all. There is always a pleasant mood boost, but it does not progress to mania. Without it, I am rather flat all day. I consider it an effective anti-depressant. I drink 2 cups of 1/2 caf, taking it with brown sugar, milk and cream an hour or so after breakfast. If I try to have it before breakfast, then I have problems with later energy crash or hunger. And if I drink any more later in the day, also problems! I am so thrilled to have coffee back in my life, that I am fine to stay strict within my guidelines. I also take a tiny bit of b-complex/thiamine around ingestion to make up for anything the coffee might be depleting.

PS. Reading the couple posts above, I do now use a french press method, although recently I read unfiltered coffee raises cholesterol and homocysteine, and I have really high cholesterol (349/233 LDL).

 

[Limon9]

I love it, but have never tolerated coffee well, due to it causing overstimulation that would lead to mania and drinking and worse sleep issues. (I have chronic life long insomnia.) I also got a painful stiff neck and body bracing and twitches from it. I thought coffee was evil and could not believe people drank it every day! It was part of an addiction cycle for me and I eventually swore it off entirely at some point in my early 30s.

I am 57 now a have found that since adding carbs back into my diet and Peating the last couple years, I have been able to have coffee again and my response to it has changed dramatically. I no longer get wild energy swings from it. Some days I feel engergized by the coffee and some days not much at all. There is always a pleasant mood boost, but it does not progress to mania. Without it, I am rather flat all day. I consider it an effective anti-depressant. I drink 2 cups of 1/2 caf, taking it with brown sugar, milk and cream an hour or so after breakfast. If I try to have it before breakfast, then I have problems with later energy crash or hunger. And if I drink any more later in the day, also problems! I am so thrilled to have coffee back in my life, that I am fine to stay strict within my guidelines. I also take a tiny bit of b-complex/thiamine around ingestion to make up for anything the coffee might be depleting.

PS. Reading the couple posts above, I do now use a french press method, although recently I read unfiltered coffee raises cholesterol and homocysteine, and I have really high cholesterol (349/233 LDL).

I'm glad you found a way to tolerate it! That's interesting - the "golden window" concept for coffee seems to be popular, with many people waiting 90 minutes after waking. Coffee diterpenes have cholesterol-raising effects, but 350 is so high that I'd think of underlying things, especially in one's 50s, like potential low thyroid. People have had success with eating oatmeal but I don't know if that addresses the root cause. Betaine is required to remethylate homocysteine and vitamin B6 to transsulfurate it, so a few eggs (choline->betaine) and b-complex in moderation aren't something to shy away from. It's said that coffee blocks the absorption of thiamine, so taking a supplement after drinking might not replenish very much.

 

[stoic]

I have recently reduced my coffee intake, as I don't crave it as much anymore and thankfully don't feel any withdrawal effects from it.

It does seem to help my digestion though, so I still enjoy my daily espresso after breakfast and lunch

 

[Peachy]

Thanks @Peachy I forgot to reply to your message!

It's interesting that we have the same reaction to gluten. I am happy to report that since I quit gluten I haven't had any more of those horrible mental states! I feel more comfortable in my own body, no anxiety, no gut distress or pain, don't have any urges to watch porn, and so on. I can also say that not eating gluten is a piece of cake (pun intended) compared to not drinking coffee. It find that it is super easy to stick with a habit when you notice clear improvements.

And yes I also respond better to coffee when I have "carb loaded" with oatmeal or some other starch beforehand. In fact I pretty much always respond well to coffee, it makes me feel amazing, which is why I struggle to quit.

That’s great! And good timing for me to read for reinforcement. I also have to manage CFS symptoms and over the last week or two have cut out almost all gluten. Noticeable improvements right away. I don’t know why I insist on a lifetime of debating with myself on this issue.

As I’m typing this, my daughter waltzes into the house carrying a baguette and focaccia wheel thing.

And I’ve determined that coffee is totally fine for me when I eat enough, and low gluten.