How Ray Peat Makes Chicken Stock

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Hello, all!

I just had a quick question about the above subject. Does he use chicken wings? That's what I use nowadays - 5 lbs. along with .5-1lb. of chicken feet. I use 5.5 quarts of water. After about 4 hours of simmering, as well as overnight cooling in the fridge, it provides very gelatinous stock. I don't know how much collagen, glycine, etc. a cup provides compared to a a TB of collagen hydrosylate (Great Lakes). I would like get 1/3 of my daily protein intake from chicken/beef/lamb stock, but I don't know how many cups that would require, or whether lamb stock has more collagen than chicken stock, for example. I would like to focus on a stock that produces more collagen than other animal sources, if possible. Great Lakes makes their gelatin from beef - any reason why that source is used?

thankfully,

Robert
 

Katty

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Hi Robert,
I think Ray would probably prefer beef or lamb stock rather than chicken stock. If you're skimming the fat off the stock, then the pufa content may not be as big of a concern between chicken or beef stock, but I think there's the general idea that it's harder to find chickens that are properly raised, etc.
In terms of how much protein is in stock-- each batch will likely be different. I was told that 1 ounce of stock had 1 gram of protein. So if you want to eat 40 grams of protein from stock, you'd need 40 ounces, or 5 cups, of stock. Unfortunately I don't have a source for that number, and I'm not sure if it's ever been studied in a lab. I figure if it's pretty gelatinous then that number is probably about right. I'd imagine you can eyeball it-- for example: does an ounce of this particular stock seem about as thick as if I were to mix 1 tbsp of gelatin into some water.
I don't know about the specific collagen content of chicken vs other animals though.
 

narouz

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I've never heard of him personally making it.
He has mentioned chicken parts, like feet, for making stock.
And they are Excellent, by the way!
However, he also said that the feet in USA are most often
exposed to chlorine--
the chickens walk through a solution be they are killed. :cry:

Chicken feet made by far the best bone broth I ever made.
Really cheap at the local asian grocery.
Can't find them at like Wholefoods Market in USA.
But I don't make it anymore because of what Peat said.

I'm talking about chicken Bone broth, cooked 3 or more hours.
Peat actually seems to be against cooking bones for over a couple of hours.
Don't know how he's gonna get good gelatin broth with that limitation....
 
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Chicken stock?

I think you're getting Ray Peat confused with the Weston Price/Primal stuff. Peat recommends oxtail soup, not chicken stock. Plus there are other problems with chicken.

The reason is the fat content of the chicken:

“The problem with chicken is that the fat is highly unsaturated, and the meat provides very little calcium.” - RP

“Lamb shanks, pigs' feet, various joint bones, and boiled chicken, if the fat is skimmed off.” - RP

“In the US, chickens are fed arsenic to make them grow faster, and it concentrates in the bones; you should find out what the chicken feeding practice is in your area.” - RP

“If you depend on chicken for your major protein, it will contribute to suppressing your thyroid and progesterone.” - RP

http://wiki.raypeatforum.com/index.php/ ... _Exchanges

If you can only afford chicken for gelatin then just skim the fat off like Peat said. But it's clear that he thinks ruminant bones are best, with beef tails being the specific best.

I recall an audio interview with Peat where he said “as long as you haven’t been poisoned by chicken fat or vegetable oil.” I can’t recall which show it was.

Matt Stone made some good points about chicken:

”Chicken was not consumed liberally. Chicken was never a preferred meat when others were available, nor were chickens fed excess of PUFA. They roamed around eating bugs. Pigs roamed around eating anything and everything, and most pork came from small farms that fed the pigs scraps, including leftover skim milk from the cow and stuff out of the garden. Today they are grain fed. Modern animal production has caused chicken and pork to be higher in PUFA. They are still fed "whole foods," but high-PUFA (omega 6 specifically) whole foods, which effects the composition of their tissues the same as vegetable oil does – albeit with less vitamin E and selenium protection that you might get from eating nuts and seeds." - Matt Stone
 

narouz

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I am just giving my own personal view here...

but I think Peat is a bad person to ask for recipes for bone broth.
I'm not persuaded that he actually makes it or ever has made it.
He loves gelatin
and my speculation is that he just uses things made from gelatin
like gummy bears or maybe just drinking it in juice.

He talks about getting gelatin from like oxtails.
And he says not to cook them for over an hour or two,
or you will degrade the quality of the protein.
You're not getting hardly any gelatin from oxtails if you only cook them an hour or two.

It's just my speculation! :lol:
 

4peatssake

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narouz said:
I am just giving my own personal view here...

but I think Peat is a bad person to ask for recipes for bone broth.
I'm not persuaded that he actually makes it or ever has made it.
He loves gelatin
and my speculation is that he just uses things made from gelatin
like gummy bears or maybe just drinking it in juice.

He talks about getting gelatin from like oxtails.
And he says not to cook them for over an hour or two,
or you will degrade the quality of the protein.
You're not getting hardly any gelatin from oxtails if you only cook them an hour or two.

It's just my speculation! :lol:
I've made awesome, gelatinous oxtail broth in 2-3 hours numerous times.
No offense narouz, but I think we're all better served if we don't speculate about what Ray Peat thinks or does.

Westside PUFAS is bang on and there were other posts today promoting chicken broth that linked to directly to Weston Price.

viewtopic.php?p=93025#p93025
 

narouz

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Personally, just my opinion, I don't think he makes it.
Bone broth, I mean.
You're saying cook it 3 hours.
Okay...you can get a little gelatin at 3 hours.
Not much, but a little.

But Peat says cooking over 2 hours degrades the protein.
 

4peatssake

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narouz said:
4peatssake said:
I've made awesome, gelatinous oxtail broth in 2-3 hours numerous times.

No offense,
but I've tried it too.
What you do wrong? :P
:pillowfight
 

4peatssake

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narouz said:
Personally, just my opinion, I don't think he makes it.
Bone broth, I mean.
You're saying cook it 3 hours.
Okay...you can get a little gelatin at 3 hours.
Not much, but a little.

But Peat says cooking over 2 hours degrades the protein.
I get thick gelatinous broth, use oxtails, just oxtails.
And no, I said 2-3 hours.
My understanding is that Peat says to cook it no longer than 3 hours.
 
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narouz said:
Personally, just my opinion, I don't think he makes it.

A year ago he listed it as one of his "as available" foods so maybe friends make it for him, or he gets plenty when he's in Meh-hee-ko. :partydance

I can totally see him making it though. I mean, if he put the effort into making bacon occasionally and refrying it in coconut oil, and making his own coconut oil ice cream then I think he would make some oxtail. :beatdeadhorse
 

squanch

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Yeah, like wheat&pufa said, I definitely wouldn't eat conventional chicken in the US in any form. They are fed horrible food, arsenical drugs and dunked into chloride because the hygienic conditions in those poultry houses are so bad. I wouldn't buy them for ethical reasons alone.

Something I don't get though (and I'm not trying to be a **** here, just curious): Any time this subject (or raw milk, or eggs, or sourdough bread...) comes up so many americans act like walmart is the only source to get groceries.
Is your food supply really already so industrialized that you don't have access to small, independent farms? Don't you have farmers markets where small farmers sell their stuff? Again, not trying to be an ***hole here, I'm just used to having access to all kinds of small, organic farmers even while living in a larger city in europe.

Back to the chicken:
Chicken feet make the best, most gelatinous stock by far (even after 2-3 hours). They have hardly any fat on them and you can skim of the small amounts they have. When I make my stock with chicken feet and put it into the fridge, the stock doesn't just gel a little bit like it would with oxtails, it turns into a solid ******* gummy bear.

Commercial gelatin does have a high endotoxin content which is probably the reason why so many people react badly to it.
 

francophonerobert

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Hello, everyone

Thanks for all the replies. I skimmed the fat off the top of the stock the other day. There wasn't much actually - not compared to chicken backs (skinned) and chicken necks, my usual ingredients. Although there is skin on chicken wings, it is a thin layer compared to the skin on chicken thighs, for example. The chicken wings are organic, for what it's worth. As an aside, chicken stock does very little for sleep quality in my experience. On the other hand, lamb shank stock is very useful. As a practical matter, I will have to make Great Lakes gelatin my primary source of glycine, collagen, etc.

thanks again,

Robert
 

Theo

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Commercial gelatin does have a high endotoxin content which is probably the reason why so many people react badly to it.

I just ordered some Great Lakes gelatin. It has a high endotoxin content ?

I know some people use 30 grams and more a day.
 

Giraffe

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francophonerobert said:
Thanks for all the replies. I skimmed the fat off the top of the stock the other day. There wasn't much actually - not compared to chicken backs (skinned) and chicken necks, my usual ingredients.
Just a thought ... I made very gelatinous broth from pork hock twice. I put it in the fridge to skim off the fat the next day. There was very little fat on top compared to beef bone broth. I reckon, the explanation is that about half of the pork fat is unsaturated, thus remains liquid in the fridge.

It was organic pork, just like the beef.
 

nerfherder

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Matt Stone made some good points about chicken:

”Chicken was not consumed liberally. Chicken was never a preferred meat when others were available, nor were chickens fed excess of PUFA. They roamed around eating bugs. Pigs roamed around eating anything and everything, and most pork came from small farms that fed the pigs scraps, including leftover skim milk from the cow and stuff out of the garden. Today they are grain fed. Modern animal production has caused chicken and pork to be higher in PUFA. They are still fed "whole foods," but high-PUFA (omega 6 specifically) whole foods, which effects the composition of their tissues the same as vegetable oil does – albeit with less vitamin E and selenium protection that you might get from eating nuts and seeds." - Matt Stone

I don't know who Matt Stone is but does he have numbers for this? I'm really curious as to the difference in PUFAs between industrial pork and pork as he describes it. Similarly for chicken.

Since I like to contribute at least something, I have some data for beef from Anibal Pordomingo who specializes in grass-fed cattle in Argentina. See page 51 of this: http://www.arec.vaes.vt.edu/southern-piedmont/forages/camtasia/mid-atlantic/forageystem.pdf

This is looking at PUFA as a % of the fat, not at total PUFA which would be worse for grain-fed beef since it tends to have more fat than grass-fed beef.
Two different confinement treatments:
Penf0Lso 9.95
Penf4%Lso 9.11

Three different pasture treatments (different levels of grain supplementation in pasture)
Pasture (no grain) 5.46
Penfd 10%H 5.62
Penf 40%H 6.93

In short this says you go from 5.5% to 9 or 10% PUFA when you switch from pasture-fed to grain-fed. Now there's another slide in that presentation that says something else altogether, so I guess it is hard to get good numbers.
 

Birdie

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I didn't expect it, but in a recent interview, somewhere, he did talk about friendly nutrients in stock made from chicken wings or feet.
But, I assume he meant good chickens. I've just used ordinary chicken feet.

Usually I use beef joint bones and stopped using the marrow bones, after hearing iron collects in the marrow.
I'd always thought the marrow was extra healthy...

The arsenic in chicken bones that somebody mentioned is something to look into.
I've heard chickens are killed by injection into the neck. But that was years ago and may be moot.
My grandfather did it the old way. An image that remains til today.
The heads on the ground. The beaks moving.
 

tara

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I didn't expect it, but in a recent interview, somewhere, he did talk about friendly nutrients in stock made from chicken wings or feet.
But, I assume he meant good chickens. I've just used ordinary chicken feet.
The issue with higher PUFA ratio from grain feeding would affect mostly the fat, wouldn't it? I make chicken stock regularly (from frames and sometimes feet) and discard the fat.
 

Birdie

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The issue with higher PUFA ratio from grain feeding would affect mostly the fat, wouldn't it? I make chicken stock regularly (from frames and sometimes feet) and discard the fat.
Yes. And glad to hear you make chicken stock. I was glad to hear Peat uses it because somehow I thought he didn't.
Yep, I'm removing the fat.
 

shepherdgirl

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You're saying cook it 3 hours.
Okay...you can get a little gelatin at 3 hours.
Not much, but a little.

But Peat says cooking over 2 hours degrades the protein.
@narouz - i seem to remember reading somewhere that the secret to gelatinous broth was actually not to cook it too long, otherwise the gelatin would degrade and the stock would not gel well when refrigerated. Additionally, this site i just found says to simmer it - don't boil it. Also you have to use enough gelatinous/collagenous bones.
 
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