Milk, chicken, starch, eggs...

WilltoBelieve

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Hello RayPeatForum friends. I haven't had a chance to post in the meet and greet sections... nevertheless I have a moment and I have a thought that may fit in here.

So many important points, but so little time!

Milk: I wrestled with this issue for years, I plumbed the depths, going so far as to start my own farm to make sure that quality was not a factor in my self-experimentation. Well, the further I went, the less I could believe that the average adult and especially an adult with health problems could benefit from the consumption of straight milk (raw or not). Meeting with many people and noting their appearances, I cannot but see that it is a problem. Looking at mammals in general, none can go the whole journey without leaving the milk behind. I read Peat's article on the issue and I think it has merit. However, for most, it will be the lack of chymosin in the stomach that precedes the lack of lactase in the intestines. Even if a person is "lactose tolerant"... it seems that there must in many cases still be a burden of lactic acid from lactose in the intestine. How could it not be the case... and especially in a person with weak health. For me, the signs of edema, and some other problems were not difficult associate with milk. Removing all unprocessed dairy and replacing it with cheese remedied much of my suffering.
I have to note... I spent 6 years as nearly lacto-vegetarian and whoever doesn't understand the potent substance being put in ALL domestic US cheeses called "enzymes" ought to study it. It is a serious drug. Experiment and find out for yourself if necessary. It took me about 3 years to make a final conclusion about it.

Chicken: It's very easy to remove all the fat. I buy either the whole freerange pasture fed chicken, or I buy wings or parts that contain most gelatin, bones, and least muscle meat. Gently boil the chosen parts or whole chicken. Pour the broth into a tall slim glass(es) and remove all the fat with a spoon or other appropriate tool. Pour the broth back onto the chicken/into the cooking pot. Add more water if needed. Continue cooking. Repeat the process until satisfied. I usually cook the chicken for a long time. At the end I boil away some of the water. The final product is very low in fat and resembles (if the bones are taken out, etc.) a head cheese type product. Lots of gelatin, very little fat, very good taste (much better than cattle, goat, or sheep).

Starch: I struggled many times trying to go without "starch". I always became very uncomfortable... miserable. If I have 75 grams of bread (clean bread, not enriched) the problem is remedied (but other problems come back...)
The worst effect of not eating "starch" (in the form of bread or properly cooked rice) was a very bad feeling on my teeth that could not be remedied by vitamin d neither mineral supps.
This problem was solved for me in a serendipitous introduction to buckwheat - after I had determined that so called "starches" must be eaten in a dry bread like state, no wetter than correctly prepared rice and chewed correctly (for the most part). I have been using buckwheat every day now for about a year, in the form of a flat bread... this has provided tremendous relief for me! Analysis: Buckwheat has oxalic acid I think close to 1mg/gram... it is very high in magnesium, it is high in phytase so when properly prepared the minerals are free, it is very high in niacin, it is low in iron compared to other grains, it contains rutin and other substances, possibly some anthraquinones. It tastes good. It feels good. It is good. The suffering that comes from no bread diet makes people physically incapable of competing in society or enjoying a high level of physical activity and wellbeing. No time to support the statement, but I think everyone can find out for themselves.

Once my health fell to very low levels, consuming eggs was coincident (don't know if this is correct use of word) with great pains and terrible feeling, which occurred shortly after eating eggs. When I was stronger, one or two eggs/ day was coincidental becoming fat looking and feeling. I tried all kinds of eggs. I bought my own farm and put chickens on the farm. I fed the chicken coconut meat and gave them huge space to roam and eat. I ate the eggs thinking they were great. I got sicker. I had to become a vegetarian to come back to normal, and this caused other imbalances... I didn't know where to run! Milk and eggs = get fat, edema, stomach belching (no chymosin in adults, stomach acid must do all the work... stops whole digestion, pay attention to details!) No bread = misery Fungal enzyme from rhizomucor ("enzyme") = inability to learn, mood changes, prostate enlargement, etc: can you say "biological warfare"?



As a postscript I should say, I would probably not be alive or be barely alive if it were not for the writings of Ray Peat. Which saved me from the cruel hand of the vicious vegetarians :mrgreen:

I look forward to receiving some feedback, and I apologize for barging past the meet and greet directly to the argument room.

No time to edit... so here goes "submit".
 

narouz

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WilltoBelieve said:
It tastes good. It feels good. It is good. The suffering that comes from no bread diet makes people physically incapable of competing in society or enjoying a high level of physical activity and wellbeing.

Will2-
You state this with such passion and conviction you almost made me
run to the kitchen to whip up a big bowl o' buckwheat! (with butter!!)
Ah...that life were this simple and our appetites so trustworthy.... :cry:
 

narouz

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WilltoBelieve said:
Chicken: It's very easy to remove all the fat. I buy either the whole freerange pasture fed chicken, or I buy wings or parts that contain most gelatin, bones, and least muscle meat. Gently boil the chosen parts or whole chicken. Pour the broth into a tall slim glass(es) and remove all the fat with a spoon or other appropriate tool. Pour the broth back onto the chicken/into the cooking pot. Add more water if needed. Continue cooking. Repeat the process until satisfied. I usually cook the chicken for a long time. At the end I boil away some of the water. The final product is very low in fat and resembles (if the bones are taken out, etc.) a head cheese type product. Lots of gelatin, very little fat, very good taste (much better than cattle, goat, or sheep).

Now chicken...
that's a bird of a different feather!

I like where you're comin' from there, Will2.
Peat kinda planted the Fear of God in me about chicken.
But in rereading him, he doesn't really say they're all that heinous,
just that you shouldn't rely upon them as a major source of protein
(because, at least regarding the muscle meat--anti-metabolic).
And he says they contain a lot of PUFA, especially if fed a PUFA diet.

But then I found--still wanting to check the accuracy, but--
found that the non-fat part of the chicken
is only as high as beef/lamb in PUFA.
The PUFA would seem to be very hightly concentrated in the fat.

There's a bit of a rub there, though...maybe:
I know that there is the subcutaneous fat in a chicken.
But, just as in many other animals, isn't there also intra-muscular fat?
You see where I'm goin' here....?

How effective are we at removing that intra-muscular fat
with the techniques you describe?
And, as opposed to the intra-muscular fat from healthy ruminants,
the intra-muscular fat in chicken will be PUFA City.

I totally agree about the taste (and smell).
I love the smell and taste of chicken broth so much more than beef or lamb....
 

Birdie

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Just from my point of view, I've been off bread for many years. After being gluten free for a long time, I went grain free a few years back.
And I feel so much better. Now, bread doesn't appeal to me. So, it's not universal that somebody will miss bread. My husband has mostly stopped bread but has it once a week.

We do eat tortillas (masa).
 

WilltoBelieve

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I don't really want to push the eating of chicken.
It's just necessary to hone the resolution of our thinking and actions if we really want to get anywhere: working on the ongoing process of knowing what's desirable and what needs to be rejected... this is also important basic skill, because the market, economy, and geo-political stability may not be so kind in the future as it is now. So it's good to know how to "eat what you have" (for times when you may not have what you think you should), to understand how to work around the basic problems the Peat and others have outlined, and to prepare food carefully and scientifically for overall self-preservation.
I eat chicken once in a while and when I do I meticulously remove the fat by the boiling process. As far as I can tell by basic chemisty, 99% of the fat should be removable by this procedure. If there aree any chemists out there I'd love to be corrected if this is wrong. But no microscope is needed. One can use the regular senses to examine the final product and the fat is clearly gone. This is why it's also common to see various broths, chicken or other, at 99% fat free available in stores.
The boiling process, if done thoroughly, will cause (boil and "decant" thoroughly) the fat from all parts of the chicken: intracellular, subcutaneous, etc. to rise to the top.

(On a tangent, for those who don't know: (ex.: ars/usda sr25 nutrient database) The USDA food composition database is useful for self-study (google keywords: ars usda sr25 nutrient search))

Bread or no bread... that is the question.

The bread issue: I've gone for many weeks in self-experimentation without bread (for me- bread is any product made up of a starchy seed with less than say 10% fat, mixed with water, and cooked till the moisture is about 20% or better even less- so for me, corn tortillas qualify as "bread).

I think the main message from RP, and I don't know if he considered it, is that STARCH is detrimental (starch embolism, etc.) ... (especially, wet starch will bypass the mouth enzymes and I assume this will be the worst exposure of starch to the system)

If the starch is dry and is chewed (in humans) thoroughly, it will mix with amylase in the mouth and proceed to be efficiently converted into glucose... which is totally different in the system than starch. The glucose may be a problem when the PUFA's are inhibiting cellular respiration (as per Peat of course) and whatever starch passses through the DigTract un-glucose-converted will be especially problematic to one with a leaky digestive tract.

Nevertheless, I would not try to eat "starch" or recommend it to anyone. And oats, or buckwheat, or tacos, or properly prepared rice and not exactly starch.

I always have, in my dietary adventures, used reasonable force in going against habit and "taste" in search of possible greener pastures that could be just over the metaphorical hill of difficulty in a particular dietary scheme. Many times I endured suffering to make sure that greener pastures weren't just around the corner. Doing something merely out of ease or convenience (though they are considerations) is also not in my nature.

So I hereby testify, and I guess it should have some value for those trying to make serious and judicial decisions about their lives : that I could not find any substantive (striving to consider first objective markers and not "taste") long term benefit to eschewing bread (as defined herein-above :lol: ) permanently. I did find value in abstaining for a length of time- but not physical. :lol:

So many linguistic difficulties and obfuscating thought patterns also arise and cause confusions : whether a thing is needed, whether a reason to partake or abstain was correct, reasons were wrong so I failed to act right, that reasons were right and I, because of right reasons was persuaded to act to my detriment (wrongly)...

Shoes are not needed, you'll have thicker soles if you walk barefoot.... etc.

So I think its good to remember that the struggling is not a struggle to conform to a rule or to a reason, but to strive to achieve the high results we are looking for, the ease of movement, the "energized quiescence" (tm RayPeat), a deep sense of well-being, a physique that expresses the natural and unforced power of true ideas within.

Is it good? In searching all the far corners of one's mind and body, to be spiritually barred from a possible act?

It is good for me to be able and have self-discipline to abstain from "bread" (tacos and tortillas are bread), but if there is a time when bread would be good (and I'm sure everyone could and can think of a time) then I must find the courage within and strength to overcome the new tyrant authority that grows in the imagination within and commands that there be no bread...

There is liberation, freedom, and forward momentum.

I think the final bondage should be only the bondage to do what is right based on everything including the ever changing demands of the present moment. (I'm sure this will be misunderstood.)

I think there is a Peat quote something like ' I would rather advise a person to improve their metabolism rather than advise them to eat or abstain from a certain food'

Most important, there needs to be quite a lot of freedom and flexibility for a camel to go through the eye of a needle...
 

narouz

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Will2-
You would be very quote-worthy!
I enjoyed that.
I'm going to chew on it for a while....
 

WilltoBelieve

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There was a time when I had to work daily in construction, I had no vehicle and had to bike 16 miles RT each day to the job site to engage in heavy labor from 7am till 5pm - many days were also well over 100deg F... without bread/grains I couldn't do it, with bread/grains (oats and buckweat, and a small amount of clean wheat bread[not enriched, not whole wheat] and in the context of other good nutrition (what I could afford + a heck of a lot of co2) I could perform as well as the other younger and stronger people (I was 40 they were 20-25)... in fact I outperformed them. But without "bread" I couldn't even get to the job site. So the external pressures forced me to abandon my no-bread philosophy. (Although I should say, thanks you RP for also banishing the no-sugar tyrant- I was then eating 3-7 mangoes during the day and lots of lemon-aid with lots of sugar)
 

narouz

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WilltoBelieve said:
There was a time when I had to work daily in construction, I had no vehicle and had to bike 16 miles RT each day to the job site to engage in heavy labor from 7am till 5pm - many days were also well over 100deg F... without bread/grains I couldn't do it, with bread/grains (oats and buckweat, and a small amount of clean wheat bread[not enriched, not whole wheat] and in the context of other good nutrition (what I could afford + a heck of a lot of co2) I could perform as well as the other younger and stronger people (I was 40 they were 20-25)... in fact I outperformed them. But without "bread" I couldn't even get to the job site. So the external pressures forced me to abandon my no-bread philosophy. (Although I should say, thanks you RP for also banishing the no-sugar tyrant- I was then eating 3-7 mangoes during the day and lots of lemon-aid with lots of sugar)

I hear ya, Will2, on the construction/biking challenge.
I did the same sort of thing,
but my roundtrip ride was about half yours
and by choice.
I was early '50s then.
But that was well before I discovered Peat,
and I was eating in the low-carb realm.

Your theory of good bread v bad bread, wet v dry, enzymed v not enzymed is very interesting.
Have you ever read Peat speak to that?
(not that you'd need to to argue its legitimacy, but...).
 

WilltoBelieve

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narouz said:
I hear ya, Will2, on the construction/biking challenge.
I did the same sort of thing,
but my roundtrip ride was about half yours
and by choice.
I was early '50s then.
But that was well before I discovered Peat,
and I was eating in the low-carb realm.

Your theory of good bread v bad bread, wet v dry, enzymed v not enzymed is very interesting.
Have you ever read Peat speak to that?
(not that you'd need to to argue its legitimacy, but...).


I haven't seen any specific statements by RP. But looking at his writings overall, I sense he's a little more anti-grains than I am.
All of my attempts to go without grain-breads have led me to believe it is not good overall, reasons will be difficult to find but I'm sure many people would sense the same (I struggled with whole grains too, I found that rye wheat and barley and relatives spelt etc, as whole grains were horrible, when I met with whole grain disciples they were often visibly tolerating various discomforts that I think cannot be explained merely by PUFA... )

My teeth hated going without bread or rice or the like. (What's left of them!)

I suspect that if I had a stronger thyroid/respiratory metabolism I might not have noticed any discomfort.
I'm working cautiously with GreaterPharma Thiroyd now (1/4th tab 2 to 4 x per day) but I don't think that I will change my perspective. There's too much comfort and sense of rightness in that piece of bread.

Though I note that my bread intake is much lower than it used to be. I would consider it now to be "normal".

I used to eat a pound of spaghetti a day! Needless to say that is foolish. But so it goes for many American youth, with our cartoonish outlook on life and lack of foresight. :(
 

narouz

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WilltoBelieve said:
"There's too much comfort and sense of rightness in that piece of bread."

[and]

"I used to eat a pound of spaghetti a day! :(

Again...very quotable, that first bit!

On the pasta: yeah, me too.
Well, not quite that bad.
Amazing how I survived that!
And I slathered it with PolyUnsatured Margarine!
(because that was what was supposed to be so healthy!! :x )
 

WilltoBelieve

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narouz said:
WilltoBelieve said:
"There's too much comfort and sense of rightness in that piece of bread."

[and]

"I used to eat a pound of spaghetti a day! :(

Again...very quotable, that first bit!

On the pasta: yeah, me too.
Well, not quite that bad.
Amazing how I survived that!
And I slathered it with PolyUnsatured Margarine!
(because that was what was supposed to be so healthy!! :x )



:lol: Ha! I used to cover mine with canola oil (organic of course) Hahaha :lol:
 

Swandattur

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My sister finds she tolerates yeast risen bread and pasta much better than cake or other non risen bread. I wondered if actually the resistant starch in pasta made for less gluten irritating in the small intestine, because that's where it does the damage. It must be the starch isn't a problem in her case for the lower intestine. I suppose the yeast raising does help out with gluten. I think starch causes endotoxin problems for me, but I may experiment to see if there is a one that would work for me, because in some ways starch helps.
 

charlie

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I am actually getting ready to eat some white rice with a roast I made. So if you don't see me around you know what happened. The endotoxins got me! :rolling
 

Birdie

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I eat tortilla chips sometimes. Usually, that's it for starch. I don't have any desire for it if I get enough protein. That's a good way for me to watch the protein amounts!!

Sometimes I have white rice at a restaurant. There is still some in our pantry. When I ask Mr Birdie if he wants it, he always says no. But he does eat a couple of donuts a week.
 

charlie

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OMG donuts! nom nom nom nom nom! It's been probably at least 3 years since I have had a donut.
 

Birdie

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Charlie said:
OMG donuts! nom nom nom nom nom! It's been probably at least 3 years since I have had a donut.
Oh, Charlie, it's been 15+ years for me. I used to be addicted to them. But, after a while away from them, not sure how long (!), I lost the desire. I mean to say that they disgust me now. Funny, huh. :roll:

Probably, if I had one, I'd be an addict again... Hopefully I won't try it. !
 

charlie

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Be strong Birdie, be strong. :lol:

Gluten causes me big problems so there is just no way I can do it. Totally not worth it to me.
 

Birdie

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:lol: Charlie!

Years ago I went through the rice bread stage. Back then it tasted like cardboard but toasted with lots of butter and jelly was pretty tasty. I couldn't imagine breakfast without toast. But, one day while travelling, I ran out. Then, was surprised that I was A okay without it. I expected to have no energy but that didn't happen.

Funny how you can be so sure about how your body will react, and then, surprise!! I was fine with eggs, bacon and fruit. Coffee or tea with milk... Ray Peat without knowing it. :)
 

charlie

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Yeh I use to be a rice breader too! :lol:

The last two days I have had a cup of white rice each day. Don't feel too bad off for it. I will keep it more as a treat though and will not be doing it for a bulk of my carbs. I really do like white rice, especially with a roast. Today I made a fried rice type lunch with onions and eggs. It was a nice switch up from the norm I been doing.
 

Swandattur

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Where does anyone get organic masa? I appreciate people writing their own food experiences especially when they have experimented fairly exhaustively.
 
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