Feel nothing from thyroid supplementation

[peter88]

Are you taking it with meals?

Tried with meals and without. No difference.

 

[peter88]

Hey Peter,
I think the Vitamin A is the problem. I'm guessing you're eating high fat diet with lots of high Vitamin A foods? The raw dairy did not make you sick due to a rouge bacteria. It was your liver not being able to handle any more of this Poison A. Did you know that Vitamin A either ingested as retinol (from animals) or beta carotene (from plants) will turn into retinoic acid in the body? There's a couple of different forms of Retinoic acid. One is the retin A that is used for facial peels. So think about it. Retin A peels or melts the top skin layer of the face so new skin can grow. Well it does the same in your body. Retinoic acid destroys epithelial cells in the body. Epithelial cells make up much of the surface area and barriers. Retinoic acid can attack the intestines, thyroid, pancreas, brain, basically everything. I speak from experience.
Around 2016, I started a more keto diet high in salmon, eggs, butter, bacon, pork, cod liver oil, dessicated liver pills. I was on the skinny side and I lost even more weight. And this also came with eczema, brain fog, and general bad and angry mood. Thank God I found Grant Genereaux and the Dr. Garrett Smith.
Everything they tell us about health, vitamins, etc may be complete bull****. They say Vitamin A is essential but if you read exactly how they came to that conclusion, you will see hos ridiculous science is. Grant figured it out. He had chronic kidney disease, ezcema and many issues. His kidney doctor told him to get his affairs in order as he only had a couple years left. He went on an extremely low Vit A diet of basically beans, rice, and red lean cow meat. I think the meat still has traces of Vit A but minute amounts. Within a couple weeks his skin calmed down. As he continued, everything got better. He healed his incurable autoimmnue diseases. He cured his incurable kidney disease. He is now 9 years on this diet. His Vitamin A is down to under 5 ug/dl. The range is 20-60. He shouold be blind by now if what they said about Vit A is true. I think Haidut and Ray Peat are wrong on vitamin A.
I was Mr. ******* Keto taking all that ***t I mentioned earlier. Worse decision of my life. My Vit A level was up to 62. With worse and worse health. After 10 months on very low A diet, my Vit A is still 40. This is how hard it is to get rid of. It is not an essential Vitamin, neither is Vitamin D. My eczema is pretty much gone but skin taking a long time to heal, my mood and energy are much better, and more importantly my temperatures are coming up. Thyroid really didn't move my temps either.
Grant has 3 free ebooks I highly recomment. My eBooks

Dr. Garrett Smith has taken Grant's work further and is helping people clean up their liver. It's all rooted in the liver. Nutrition Detective | Research-Based Vitamin A Toxicity & Liver Health

Are you on twitter? I can link you to more good information. @ValZimmer2

Hmm. I went low A last year for 6 months and my vitamin a levels dropped from 55 to 45 is just 3 months of avoiding retinol. I didn’t really notice an increase in temperature. I’d be open to trying different things but I’m not sure vitamin a is my problem. I don’t have skin issues despite have gut issues. I believe my issue with milk is with casein because ghee doesn’t give me severe constipation and white tongue.

 

[cs3000]

some common reasons might be:
copper or iron deficiency (good iron levels needed for t3 to work, good copper levels needed for iron & for mitochondria to function), vit A overload (or deficiency), carnitine supplements or milk thistle/silymarin supplements can block it, not enough calories (so d3 enzyme is overexpressed as a protective mechanism),

or aside from those ray mentioned taking too high a dose at once can get inactivated (recommended as low as 1mcg).
if high adrenaline typically , even a few mcg might be too much initially (could test lighter approach)
or ray said sometimes it takes a consecutive week or so to stop getting adrenaline response and get the proper reaction. (having high sodium intake might help during this).

Thyroid is the only thing that safely lowers cholesterol, but when your stress hormones are very high, you shouldn't take more than about one microgram of Cytomel at a time, and should accompany it with things like milk and orange juice.
A starting dose of about 1 mcg can produce a noticeable effect, and can be repeated at intervals according to the effect. 5 mcg with a meal is another way to start it.
thyroxine's half-life in the body is two weeks, so the effect is cumulative, and if you get the desired effects in less than two weeks the dose should probably be reduced.

Thyroid Supplementation Doesn't Help / Causes Issues@
T3, by lowering stress, sometimes reveals a low basal metabolic rate, that was hidden by high stress hormones. The body produces about 4 mcg of T3 per hour, so taking more than that can interfere with regulatory processes.
If your cholesterol is above 200, and the thyroid supplements didn't warm you up, it's possible that something is interfering with your steroid synthesis, which might be a deficiency of something like vitamin A, or interference from something like iron or carotene.
If you are taking the aspirin regularly, you should make sure to get vitamin K, from kale, liver, or a supplement. Anemia, like cold feet, is a common sign of low thyroid function.
I occasionally see that happen [T3 WILL CAUSE LOW TEMP/PULSE]; sometimes people have had their pulse rate decrease 40 or 50 beats per minute. The temperature of your fingers, toes, and nose helps to interpret the balance between stress and thyroid; your fingers should be less cold as your metabolic rate comes up. In extreme hypothyroidism, the hands and feet can be very cold while the oral temperature looks o.k.; then as the metabolic rate increases, the difference between fingers and mouth decreases.
[BRAIN FOG] The body makes up to about 4 mcg of T3 in an hour, so each dose should be small, with food to delay absorption. Are you having orange juice and milk in your diet? Sometimes a B vitamin deficiency, especially B1, can cause the fog. A supplement of 10 mg. is often enough to improve focus and prevent fatigue.
When you take T3 without food, it enters the blood stream very suddenly, and the liver is likely to detect an excessive amount, causing it to produce enzymes to eliminate it. The result can be a decrease in T3 for the rest of the day, especially at night if you took it in the morning. Have you tried rebreathing into a paper bag, to see if the increased CO2 affects the fog?

[HIGH HEART RATE AFTER T3] I think regular use of the pregnenolone might help. Are you getting enough milk, and salting your food to taste? Do you have some sea food regularly? (For trace minerals.)
thyroid will stimulate the conversion of cholesterol into progesterone and the adrenal hormones. When T3 is used in small doses, such as 3 or 4 mcg at a time, it can be very effective for lowering adrenalin by letting glucose be more fully oxidized.
[Giving 3mcg Cynomel/hour to 84-year-old grandmother with dementia] If someone is in a precarious condition, even smaller amounts at a time might be better. For example, a man in the hospital right after a heart attack started taking one mcg per hour; the doctors had said that at the rate his enzymes were rising they would be expected to keep rising for another day, but they started decreasing exactly when he started the small doses, and they had decreased the next day when he left the hospital, without symptoms. T3, sugar, and aspirin are the most heart-protective things.
[TOPICAL T3] Using it topically doesn't do anything for systemic metabolism, just the skin, at least at the concentrations I'm familiar with.

[HYPOTHYROID SYMPTOMS RETURN DESPITE SAME DOSAGE] During the first week or two of supplementing thyroid, there is usually an intensification of the effect of adrenaline. It’s necessary to watch a variety of signs, especially the temperature of hands and feet and the amount of water evaporated, to judge the actual effect of thyroid. The effect of thyroid after the level of adrenaline has normalized is to increase the depth of relaxation.
[THYROID ACTING LIKE CAFFEINE] Not like caffeine, but if too much is taken suddenly, a person who has been deficient in thyroid is likely to experience an excess of adrenaline. Since the body normally produces about 4 mcg of T3 in an hour, taking 10 or 20 mcg at once is unphysiological.

 

[gilson d dantas]

I’ve now tried NDT, tyromix, and Cynoplus without any increase in body temperature.
My waking temperature is consistently 97.8-98.1 but during the day it ranges from 96-97.8. I began dabbling with thyroid this past summer and my digestion hasn’t improved and my body doesn’t produce heat on its own.

I eat over 4000 calories everyday and never gain weight. What would cause thyroid to not be effective in increasing temps? I started 1/2 a Cynoplus a week and a half ago. I have felt 0 increases in temps so I started taking a whole pill, which I know is not recommended too soon, and still don’t see any changes.

Liver issue? Low vitamin d?

With me happens the same.
I take NDT or T3 and zero effects. I think T3 don´t enter at the cell. Temperature still low.
I tried many things, but the problem still. "Resistance to T3" may be. And the reverseT3 is always above 40, which means high. But also, I dont know how to lower the reverse T3. [Vitamins A, D ok; protein, cholesterol, sugar, liver, vitamins B, all ok]. Years and years and no solution to the problem.

 

[LLight]

But also, I dont know how to lower the reverse T3.

You could try colloidal gold.

The thyroid hormone converting enzyme human deiodinase 1 is inhibited by gold ions from inorganic salts, organic substances, and by small-size nanoparticles - PubMed

The selenocysteine-containing enzyme class deiodinases (DIO) consists of three isoforms. DIOs play a role in regulation of thyroid hormone (TH) signaling through the removal of iodide from TH leading to TH that interact with the hypothalamic-pituitary-thyroid (HPT) axis with differing potency...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

I'm not sure how to interprete this study. It mentions that gold could impair the job of the DIO1 enzyme but relatively to reverse T3. Could it be not the case for normal T3? Maybe there is nothing to be understood from the abstract alone.

How do you understand it @Hans? Thanks

 

[gilson d dantas]

You could try colloidal gold.

THe possible problem: collateral effects...of the gold

 

[FitnessMike]

much worse since quitting coffee but it wrecks my sleep.

0.5mg cypro before bed negate a lot of the stress response from coffee the next day

 

[FitnessMike]

Tried with meals and without. No difference.

did you start with very low doses first?

do you have a full thyroid panel done?

to me t3 only doesn't do shi**t, and if i take NDT or anything with T4 with meals, it doesn't absorb at all.

If you have done a full thyroid test, with rt3 paste snip over here.

 

[theoogabear]

I’ve eaten 2 cynoplus tablets and felt nothing lol. I’m bummed no one has figured this out.

 

[peter88]

I’ve eaten 2 cynoplus tablets and felt nothing lol. I’m bummed no one has figured this out.

I tried 4 grains of NDT last week and felt nothing. Wild.

 

[theoogabear]

I tried 4 grains of NDT last week and felt nothing. Wild.

I just listened to this (11:14). Excess lipolysis will inhibit thyroid, even when supplementing.


View: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=kcU2Mt98nxQ


Aspirin and b3 should help you feel thyroid. I know excessive lipolysis is my problem, my labs for FFA cholesterol were very high.

 

[Aspekt]

You guys should look into Denis Wilson MD

This is an area where I find Ray's advice somewhat lacking. Wilson's writing really crystallized something for me that felt like it was missing from thyroid discussion (although his work has been mentioned on this forum a few times before).

I purchased the printed doctor's manual and read it. Haven't completely resolved my thyroid issues but it has certainly made improvement. My waking temp in the past went as low as 34.8, these days it's about 36.2c, still lowish but vastly improved. Here's my overview.

Most hypothyroid people don't make enough T3, because they lack T4 to make it. Giving T4 improves T3 levels and symptoms alleviated. These people often have very bad thyroid labs. These people are what medicine thinks a thyroid problem looks like - because they respond so well and easily to T4 and their labs are very unambiguous that something is wrong.

There is hypothesized to be another group who have what he terms 'Wilson's Thyroid Syndrome' - those who have a local cellular insensitivity to the effects of T3 - caused by stress, illness, history of famine in genetics, etc. They will have many hypothyroid symptoms but blood work will often be subclinically hypothyroid but seemingly not too bad on the levels, perhaps within normal range. They might have adequate T4 to make T3, they might even have good circulating T3 levels - and yet they have thyroid symptoms.

For these people, taking T4 doesn't work, taking T3/T4 combos doesn't work. Just chewing T3 won't work - thyroid hormone chemistry is extremely sensitive and trying to maintain steady T3 levels simply by dividing tablets will not fully resolve symptoms (or reset the body's nomimal T3 output/sensitivity) because T3's effect is negatively modulated by instability in the levels. It's like doing surgery with a sledgehammer, you simply can't get a very steady T3 level just chewing bits of it. Take a bit too much and whoops you've actually just reduced your T3 levels, sorry.

The body is so much more precise in its levels than oral consumption of medicine, and the thyroid is uniquely sensitive to the instability or inappropriate modulation of these levels done externally.

12 hour Sustained Release T3 at precise 12 hour intervals (and I mean precise) allows the body to 'jump start' the sensitivity again (Has to be prepared by a compounding pharmacy). Following a careful program of cycling on and off SR-T3, ascending doses, 'capturing' temperature (holding the dose at the level that gives you 37.0c and symptom alleviation without dipping in temp) and descending in dose at the rate that holds the temperature high. Consecutive cycles reduce the amount of SR-T3 required to get to 37.0c. You don't stay on it forever, it's used as a corrective mechanism. I've done several cycles and seem to have improved more each time. It is a lengthy process that requires a lot of patience and discipline in taking the doses, I will say. Not cheap to have the T3 compounded. That and my probable ADHD means I haven't gone all the way with it (i.e keep doing cycles for months/years until every symptom is gone) but it certainly reveals a gap in our collective understanding - all I needed was to see my temp improve by .1c every day I was taking the SR-T3, in a straight line (I've been able to achieve 37c while on SR-T3 but probably have several cycles before I can stay 36.6c-37c without any medication. T3 and cynoplus never did that for me.

Dr. Wilson presents for Restorative Medicine Conference

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pTBROLE6Vfo


Dr Wilson's Site (Has information in the online doctor's manual but not nearly as comprehensive as the printed out manual) Also he has books on amazon aimed at patients, haven't read those.

Doctor's Manual for Wilson's Temperature Syndrome - Wilson's Syndrome

« Read using links on left Doctor’s Manual for Wilson’s Temperature Syndrome web version: 1.02 Copyright: 1991-2014 WilsonsTemperatureSyndrome.com P.O.Box 1744 Lady Lake, FL 32158

www.wilsonssyndrome.com

Interesting article on alternative thyroid delivery methods.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7322563/

LT4 and Slow Release T3 Combination: Optimum Therapy for Hypothyroidism?​

Denis Wilson, md: Low Body Temperature as an Indicator for Poor Expression of Thyroid Hormone​

Dr Wilson interviewed for Integrative Medicine: A Clinician’s Journal(IMCJ)
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4566469/

 

[FitnessMike]

it wrecks my sleep.

in what way exactly it wrecks your sleep?

 

[FitnessMike]

Interestingly, taking thyroid (t3+t4) significantly lowered my reverse t3 but didn't make me feel anything still.

I believe that chronic stress we are under from low metabolism causes severe mineral/vitamin deficiencies. If you put your daily food into a chronometer and see any nutrient below probably 200% daily value, you are likely deficient and maybe require low-dose supplementation for these, and yes less is more i found for my self. I started supplementing some thiamine again, 50mg, and feel much warmer, it's like carbs heating my body again.

I believe that the main thing that cause us to not to react to thyroid medications well, are defficiecies from chronic stress and starting to big and too quick with hormones.

 

[theoogabear]

Well, I tried @haidut 's advice in the video I posted above, and my temps have been high all morning. Almost uncomfortably so. My palms are sweating on the keyboard as I write this. I also pooped twice. As far as feeling goes, I'm chilled out. Nothing extreme. I am thirsty, though, I think I am dehydrated from sweating out fluids.

 

[peter88]

in what way exactly it wrecks your sleep?

It makes me sleep poorly