not responding to thyroid

[jyb]

I'm updating my status in case anyone has ideas or suggestions.

I'm 26 with a long history of low energy / lethargy / insomnia (I was probably hypo since my teens). High TSH (3-6), which remained high on several months of strict Peat diet (but I did feel slightly better - libido, muscles and don't feel as cold).

More than a month of thyroid supplement (currently 1 cynomel 25mg T3 + 1 dessicated Thiroyd) and did 1 blood test: TSH dropped to 0.01. I have Free T4 in the "normal" range, and Free T3 a bit over the range.

Despite lowered TSH, my temp is still less than 97F afternoon and my lethargy hasn't changed and I don't feel anything when I take the thyroid (only the first time or so did I feel something). Doses of aspirin (up to 2g - always with K2 of course) might help a bit, not sure, but even then I don't reach 98.6F.

I almost never reach 98.6F, no matter how much sugar/protein/aspirin/thyroid/coconut oil etc etc I take. It's possible that I increased my thyroid too quick (I've used more than 2 pills sometimes to see if it made a difference).


I haven't experimented with pregnelonone yet. I'm currently reading this thread viewtopic.php?f=11&t=905, I have nothing to lose experimenting.

 

[kiran]

jyb, Are you splitting your thyroid over the day?
Also, the requirement for thyroid hormone goes up in the winter, so it's possible you need to experiment with upping the dose.

 

[Wilfrid]

Jyb,

It may be wise to switch to cynoplus and take an 1/8th of the tablet two or three times a day with meals.
Each time you are taking the cynoplus try to add a tiny amount of kelp ( a capsule of Kelp with 150mcg content of iodine that you split over your meals) along with a small amount of selenium ( Healthy Origins have a good capsule supplement that you can use easily).
On your evening meal, if you can and just before it, take 10mg of vit B6 ( Ray told me that anykind of B6 would do the trick but I think that the activated one may be more effective.) with one caps of magnesium taurate ( take this one with your meal.)
If you still want to use your cynomel, try to take 1/6th or less just before getting to bed.

 

[Lucy]

When you supply the NDT (or any form of T4/T3) the adrenaline and cortisol levels drop and so initially you can experience slower pulses and/or temperatures.

Does the body really downregulate adrenalin and cortisol so quickly, didn't Ray say it takes weeks or even months to calm down the adrenal glands? He did mention that a too big dose of T3 at once (more than a few mcg) can lead to a conversion of T4 into reverse T3 in a defensive response, and that could also result in lower temps I guess... at least I was imagining it was this when I was actually feeling worse on a T3 supplement. BTW, does anyone here feel a substantial effect of supplementing only a few mcg T3 several times per day?

Merry Christmas everyone!

 

[jyb]

@kiran: yes, I split the tablets. I was doing 1/4, so I'm going to take a step back and start over again at 1/8.

@Wilfrid: That's a lot of supplements but I appreciate new things to try. I'll start with the iodine+selenium thing, then maybe add B6+magnesium

 

[cliff]

If you drink milk you get more than enough iodine. Eating enough protein and getting enough nutrients is important for thyroid to work good.

 

[Rachel]

Each time you are taking the cynoplus try to add a tiny amount of kelp ( a capsule of Kelp with 150mcg content of iodine that you split over your meals) along with a small amount of selenium ( Healthy Origins have a good capsule supplement that you can use easily).

Hmmm... Ray wouldn't agree with the kelp/iodine bit.

Mary Shomon: Do you think the majority of people with hypothyroidism get too much or too little iodine? Should people with hypothyroidism add more iodine, like kelp, seaweeds, etc.?

Dr. Ray Peat: 30 years ago, it was found that people in the US were getting about ten times more iodine than they needed. In the mountains of Mexico and in the Andes, and in a few other remote places, iodine deficiency still exists. Kelp and other sources of excess iodine can suppress the thyroid, so they definitely shouldn't be used to treat hypothyroidism.

http://www.raypeatforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=544

 

[Wilfrid]

Hi Rachel,

I get the kelp/selenium tip from Ray.
When I emailed him regarding the dosage of cynoplus he said to start slowly ( 1/8th of tablet twice or three times a day with meals) and to be sure to get adequate amount of supplemental iodine and selenium....so as long as the added kelp do not exceed 150mcg per day he told me that it would be ok. Regarding the selenium , at least that what he said to me, it would be wise to use seafood instead of potentialy allergenic supplement but I replied that I can't eat seafood and try to reduce my meat consumption so he said that the use of 200mcg of selenium through the day would be fine.
I know that we can read everywhere now what Peat's recommendation are. But, still, the context are everything....At the beginning of my correspondance with him I asked him about fruits and crohn's disease ( I have this disease) and he told me that fruits contains sugar that could worsen bowel inflammation and that the only exception is well filtered orange juice which should be use sparingly and only if bowel tolerance is ok.
I pretty sure that you can't find any information like this one on the net from Ray's mouth....
I said to Jyb the exact same thing that ray told me and hoped that could work because sometimes when you get informations from Ray, he gives excellent advice but usually a little more different according to people's need or situation.

 

[Lucy]

Hi Wilfrid, what exactly did he say is problematic in fruits? Sugars should be also in the strained juice, no?

 

[Wilfrid]

Lucy, the first time I made contact with Ray my question was about the fact that I couldn't (and still can't) consumed fruits of any kind (even those with low water content and low acidity like dates or bananas) without bowel irritation...
At this time, I thought that the problem was the acidity content of fruits ( not really the case for dates or bananas ) and shared this feeling with him.
His response was that for those with bowel inflammation the sugar (fructose, I guess) in fruits could worsen the inflammation, he was no more explicit than that....And ,you're right, the strained orange juice still have the sugar without the part which could cause endotoxins production (mainly the pulp residual and fiber...) but ,still, I can't handle the strained juice.
He told me that in the context of people WITH bowel inflammation. And fructose (as well as lactose)malabsorption is a common problem with people having IBD. So during the inflammation period I stay away from fruits and milk and use cheese with white rice or peeled white potatoes along with refined coconut oil and butter as well as gelatin in form of stews.
Back to the Kelp/iodine stuff if you search on Lita Lee's website you will find that, during an interview with her ,Ray said 150mcg of iodine is a safe supplementation dose. And in his book "Nutrition for women" he even recommend 200mcg of iodine in the form of Kelp.
My point is , like I said in my previous post, with Ray, everything is a matter of context/situation.
And, at least for me and my situation back then, Ray ( like he usually is) was right.

 

[HDD]

Hi Wilfrid, I just read that you have Crohn's. My daughters have a good friend that has Crohn's in colon. He is not doing well. Are you having improvement following Peat type diet? Would you mind sharing your basic protocol?

 

[Wilfrid]

Hi Wilfrid, I just read that you have Crohn's. My daughters have a good friend that has Crohn's in colon. He is not doing well. Are you having improvement following Peat type diet? Would you mind sharing your basic protocol?

I'm not really following it mainly because I can't handle the two principals foods that Ray often recommend (milk and orange juice) but since the beginning of my correspondance with him my goal was to increase my metabolic rate.
And I can say, for sure, that he is very flexible regarding foods.
" My recommendation is to eat to increase metabolic rate rather than any particular foods". Ray Peat
I think that "rather than any particular foods" is very important because if you can reach a higher metabolic rate with grains or tuber (which is my case)or with plain sugar rather than fruits then you are making progress.
Fruits,as a principal source of carbs, have two major problems for me ( and my condition). The first one is that fruits have, generaly speaking, a cooling effect and that's why it's pretty easy to find an abundance of fruits in hot climate rather than, let's say, Canada, Ireland, Sweden or Alaska...this point is very important because consuming fruits for those who are sick ( and they usually have a lower metabolic rate already) could make them more prone to anxiety,
nervousness and often result in a drop of body temperature despite using thyroid supp. So for those who lives in hot climate (and/or with a high metabolic rate) fruits is, with no doubt, the best choice but when you're living in a colder climate it's more tricky. When the temperature is cold, intense craving for hot foods rather than cooling one is generally the rule.
The second problem is fruit's sugar: fructose. For those with IBD, this type of sugar could make inflammation worse that's what Ray told me and he was right.
The recommendation he made for me were the following:
- Using larger amount of vit K2 ( he gave me the choice between Carlson and Life Extension)
- Using topically vit A and D ( about four times the oral dose on skin, around 20000 UI of A and 8000 UI of D)
- Having bright incandescent bulb ( around 150W)
- Using a thyroid supp ( Cynoplus, he didn't make any recommendation regarding Cynomel)
- For vitamin C: no supp, Milk and meat are very good sources of it.
- Magnesium: Coffee or even better foot's soak of magnesium chloride or epsom.
- Pregnenolone (50mg for me) and B6 ( no more than 10mg)
- Small amount of Kelp (no more than 150mcg and split through meals) and small amount of selenium (from supp)
at each meal with the cynoplus.
That's what I'm doing now and I can say that I get really good results so far. Mood is ok, body temp and pulse went up and no flare up.
The foods that I eat are white rice, peeled potatoes, butter, refined coconut oil, cane sugar, coke, ice cream, stew, coffee, meat, maple syrup and blackstrap molasse and sometimes even bread and pizza ( I'm french....I can't live without my baguette )
Sorry for this long post but if that could help even a little bit then I'm happy.

 

[Wilfrid]

Oh,oh,

I forgot the cheese part....I used tons and tons of cheese.....

 

[cliff]

When ray said sugar in fruit he wasn't talking about fructose

 

[Wilfrid]

Hi Cliff,

You are probably right but since he was no more explicit than that could you help me and tell me what other sugar than fructose can worsen bowel inflammation? Because like I said fructose intolerance is a common feature of IBD but if you know what Ray thought about sugar in fruits it would be a great help.

 

[Wilfrid]

Sorry I meant...."other sugar in fruits than fructose...."

 

[cliff]

well you can obviously do fructose(you do cane sugar, molasses and maple syrup?). Fructose intolerance is a myth imo, the real culprit is long chain sugars and starches in fruit. These sugars are not digested and feed bad bacteria.

I suffered with ibs for a good potion of my life and most fruits were never a problem for me. Wheat, white rice and emulsifiers are the worst triggers for me.

 

[HDD]

Thank you, Wilfrid. What about bone broths, gelatin, and potato protein (extracting juice)? Do you use salt, aspirin, Vit. E? Oysters, liver, shrimp? Hope to share this information with him tonight.

 

[Wilfrid]

well you can obviously do fructose(you do cane sugar, molasses and maple syrup?). Fructose intolerance is a myth imo, the real culprit is long chain sugars and starches in fruit. These sugars are not digested and feed bad bacteria.

I suffered with ibs for a good potion of my life and most fruits were never a problem for me. Wheat, white rice and emulsifiers are the worst triggers for me.

I think that you mean Polysacharrides? This kind of complex carbs that you can find mainly in fiber (cellulose)?
Those are supposed to be hard to digest compare to monosacharride (like fructose). But the fructose content of the sweeteners like cane sugar,maple syrup are much much lower than fruits, right?The glucose/fructose ratio, don't have any impact on this?
If for example, I take two to three tablespoon of pure fructose, an empty stomach, after 20 to 25 minutes I get bloated ( a part my large intestine was removed) and often ended with diarrhea....no pb with cane sugar, maple syrup but get some bloating from molasses.
So far I still be careful toward fruits :2cents

 

[Wilfrid]

Thank you, Wilfrid. What about bone broths, gelatin, and potato protein (extracting juice)? Do you use salt, aspirin, Vit. E? Oysters, liver, shrimp? Hope to share this information with him tonight.

Yes I used refined rock salt that I buy in Italy because here in France salt are often gray for the natural ones, and with added iodine or agglomerants for the refined ones.
I can't eat seafood without ending up with red scaly patches on my legs and arms but those are loaded with full of nutrients that are very important for the thyroid function ( iodine, selenium, copper....).
I don't take aspirin. I do take vit E from 4Spectrum.
For the gelatin , in France, you can buy easily tongue, beef's cheek, intestines, beef's foot....stuff like this which are made with, and are already loaded with, gelatin because it's part of our food's culture so I eat them very liberally but I don't know what's available in the U.S.
Ray often recommend greatlakes gelatin (and he uses the porcine's one.)
I never made the potato protein but this must be, with no doubt, superior to the white potatoes.
And I make each week a pot au feu with beef bones.
Hope the best.