not responding to thyroid

jyb

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Have any of you encountered this situation?

After a few months of Peat diet and some improvements, I still feel a bit lethargic (pulse often 80+ but afternoon oral temperatures in the range 96.9 - 97.8). Last week I decided to start thyroid supplementation (about 10mcg cytoplus T3/T4 in the morning, and 20mcg cytomel T3 during the day - taking no more than 5mcg per hour). The first few days were good - for the first time since I started recording temperatures, I reached 98.6 for a few hours. However after a week my tiredness came back and my temperatures got back to 96.9 - 97.8. Today I tried 1 grain (divided doses) of NDT Thiroyd from Thailand to see if dessicated would make a difference - it didn't.

How would you interpret that? I would have thought that taking some T3 should always increase temperatures within 1-3hours at least temporarily provided I had a good diet (sugar, protein, salt...) - or is it usual not to respond in the first few weeks of supplementation? I know blood tests would be help, but it will take weeks before I can get some - all I know is that before starting thyroid supps I usually had a high-ish TSH of 3 to 6.


Edit: I just took 1 whole grain of NDT at once - it finally raised my temperature to 98.4 (pusle 84). However, it lasted only half an hour before returning to 97.8 - 98.2 (pulse 81).

Edit: I just took 10mcg of T3 and my temperatures dropped to 95.9 for several hours.
 

Ray-Z

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Welcome to the forum, jyb.

I respond badly to NDT (i.e. become more hypothyroid), and am unresponsive to T3 at low doses, particularly in the morning. (I am both very unhealthy and very big, which may explain some of my unresponsiveness to low doses of T3.)

You may find that you notice more of a response to T3 as you gradually increase your total daily dose.

Note: I advocate great caution in using T3; it is potent stuff!

(Edited third sentence above for clarity.)
 

jyb

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Ray-Z said:
Welcome to the forum, jyb.

I respond badly to NDT (i.e. become more hypothyroid), and am unresponsive to T3 at low doses, particularly in the morning. (I am both very unhealthy and very big, which may explain some of my unresponsiveness to low doses.)

You may find that you notice more of a response to T3 as you gradually increase your total daily dose.

Note: I advocate great caution in using T3; it is potent stuff!

Thanks. How do you explain being unresponsive to NDT?
 

charlie

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If you only started a week ago then I do not think thats enough time to see much for results. :2cents
 

Ray-Z

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jyb said:
Thanks. How do you explain being unresponsive to NDT?

Sorry -- my post was probably unclear. I do respond to NDT, just very badly. I suspect that -- as a result of massive exposure to PUFA, stress, over-training, and alcohol -- my liver simply does not convert much T4 to T3. If instead I'm converting T4 to rT3, it would make sense that T4 aggravates my hypothyroid symptoms.
 

charlie

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Ray-Z said:
jyb said:
Thanks. How do you explain being unresponsive to NDT?

Sorry -- my post was probably unclear. I do respond to NDT, just very badly. I suspect that -- as a result of massive exposure to PUFA, stress, over-training, and alcohol -- my liver simply does not convert much T4 to T3. If instead I'm converting T4 to rT3, it would make sense that T4 aggravates my hypothyroid symptoms.

I think this might be happening to me. Uggggh. Wondering if this gets better.
 

charlie

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Ray-Z, does your heart beat real hard when this happens?
 

Ray-Z

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Charlie said:
Ray-Z, does your heart beat real hard when this happens?

You mean, when I used to take NDT?

When I react badly to NDT, I feel cold and very short of breath, and my mood turns grouchy. I haven't noticed that NDT makes my heart beat especially hard.

(Aside: Wasn't there another recent thread -- involving kettlebell, perhaps? -- where people discussed the significance of a pounding heartbeat? Also, I vaguely recall an article -- maybe on disorders of bleeding and clotting -- in which Ray Peat said that inflammation tends to make the blood more viscous. Could viscous blood cause a heavy, pounding heartbeat? Apologies if my memory is off.)

I no longer take NDT, except for a bit before I lift weights. This occasional use before exercise does not cause the symptoms I listed above.
 

kettlebell

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This is interesting. I can be warm and ok and shortly after taking NDT my hands go cold and mood lowers. It always confuses me and now I have a potential reason why. It then takes a LOT of sugar/protein/salt to get my extremities warm again.
 

charlie

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Know that feeling, kettlebell. I am down to 1/2 a pill a day now to stop that from happening.
 

jyb

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@Ray-Z, kettlebell, Charlie: from what I've read, this could be a reverse-T3 problem. There is a lot of information and protocols for solving this on http://www.stopthethyroidmadness.com/reverse-t3/ and linked pages.

Maybe I suffer from the same, will have to keep that in mind. I'm surprised that I haven't heard about this before while reading Peat articles and forums. Indeed, if the reverse-T3 problem is true, then it seems problematic to even supplement with dessicated thyroid as it contains T4 which would make things worse.

On the other hand, those pages don't address diet and talk about adrenal fatigue in which Peat doesn't believe.

So, although I will continue on the Peat diet, I'm confused which approach to take when it comes to thyroid supplementation. After a week, doses of T3 don't seem to change my temps, which are very often below 97.
 

charlie

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Hi Jyb, welcome to the forum! Sorry on the late welcome.

Thank you for posting that link will look into it later.
 

nwo2012

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jyb said:
Have any of you encountered this situation?

After a few months of Peat diet and some improvements, I still feel a bit lethargic (pulse often 80+ but afternoon oral temperatures in the range 96.9 - 97.8). Last week I decided to start thyroid supplementation (about 10mcg cytoplus T3/T4 in the morning, and 20mcg cytomel T3 during the day - taking no more than 5mcg per hour). The first few days were good - for the first time since I started recording temperatures, I reached 98.6 for a few hours. However after a week my tiredness came back and my temperatures got back to 96.9 - 97.8. Today I tried 1 grain (divided doses) of NDT Thiroyd from Thailand to see if dessicated would make a difference - it didn't.

How would you interpret that? I would have thought that taking some T3 should always increase temperatures within 1-3hours at least temporarily provided I had a good diet (sugar, protein, salt...) - or is it usual not to respond in the first few weeks of supplementation? I know blood tests would be help, but it will take weeks before I can get some - all I know is that before starting thyroid supps I usually had a high-ish TSH of 3 to 6.


Edit: I just took 1 whole grain of NDT at once - it finally raised my temperature to 98.4 (pusle 84). However, it lasted only half an hour before returning to 97.8 - 98.2 (pulse 81).

Edit: I just took 10mcg of T3 and my temperatures dropped to 95.9 for several hours.

This is perfectly normal and as far as Peat is concerned has nothing to do with reverse T3 or adrenal fatigue. It's simple. In the hypothyroid state adrenaline and cortisol are usually higher and the body's way of increasing the metabolism in the absence of sufficient thyroid hormone (T3). When you supply the NDT (or any form of T4/T3) the adrenaline and cortisol levels drop and so initially you can experience slower pulses and/or temperatures. But as you body improves the metabolism and thyroid function then pulses and/or temps will improve. You can question an issue perhaps after using NDT for 3 months with no improvement in metabolism, but I doubt that will happen. If I wee you, I would keep taking cynoplus in the morning and regular small amounts of T3.
And of course keep the sugar, salt, protein etc plentiful. I also suggest niacinamide and aspirin to suppress the release of free fatty acids.
 

charlie

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nwo you rock! Good post.

edit: I will be moving this to the "Ask for help" section soon.
 
J

j.

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Never heard of the NDT thing. Is this something that's supposed to help everyone?
 

charlie

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NDT= Natural Dessicated Thyroid

Like what Broda Barnes used back in the day, and the stuff you can get from Thailand, Thyroid-S and Thiroyd.
 

jyb

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nwo2012 said:
This is perfectly normal and as far as Peat is concerned has nothing to do with reverse T3 or adrenal fatigue. It's simple. In the hypothyroid state adrenaline and cortisol are usually higher and the body's way of increasing the metabolism in the absence of sufficient thyroid hormone (T3). When you supply the NDT (or any form of T4/T3) the adrenaline and cortisol levels drop and so initially you can experience slower pulses and/or temperatures. But as you body improves the metabolism and thyroid function then pulses and/or temps will improve. You can question an issue perhaps after using NDT for 3 months with no improvement in metabolism, but I doubt that will happen. If I wee you, I would keep taking cynoplus in the morning and regular small amounts of T3.
And of course keep the sugar, salt, protein etc plentiful. I also suggest niacinamide and aspirin to suppress the release of free fatty acids.

Thanks, that's very helpful.
 
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