Did Gbolduev Have Any Evidence To Back Up His Claims About PH?

[Westside PUFAs]

I looked up many studies on long-term fasting, most of them show decreased testosterone.

None of those studies are water-only. They are delayed feeding windows. The people never enter the true fasting state. Also, testosterone is not important. It comes and goes.

 

[AretnaP]

None of those studies are water-only. They are delayed feeding windows. The people never enter the true fasting state. Also, testosterone is not important. It comes and goes.

It was just something discussed by tubzy and me in another thread.

 

[TubZy]

Fasting will cause elevated FFA. Elevated FFA causes insulin resistance. Do you want to see studies supporting to that?
What is there to understand? Any adaptive changes to fasting are not permanent and they are a stress response to starvation. I might accept that short term fasting could be good for detoxifying, but even that may cause more harm than good in the long run.
Logs don't mean much to me. I have no reason to doubt that fasting makes people feel good. The question is why, and the answer is chronically elevated cortisol.
Can you please post a full list of your references in regards to the benefits of fasting?

Effect of intermittent fasting and refeeding on insulin action in healthy men. - PubMed - NCBI
Time-restricted feeding improves insulin resistance and hepatic steatosis in a mouse model of postmenopausal obesity. - PubMed - NCBI
Intermittent Fasting Promotes White Adipose Browning and Decreases Obesity by Shaping the Gut Microbiota. - PubMed - NCBI
Effects of eight weeks of time-restricted feeding (16/8) on basal metabolism, maximal strength, body composition, inflammation, and cardiovascular risk factors in resistance-trained males
Impact of intermittent fasting on health and disease processes. - PubMed - NCBI

These are mainly for IF/ADF, the effects are even more dramatic with pure water fasting as insulin levels drop and stay low which is what triggers a lot of the benefits and gene expressions.

Again, I mentioned the other studies and benefits in this thread (below) and you were even engaged in the conversation. I talked and showed studies from everything from immune system enhancements to stem cell regeneration.

If You Don't Want Low Testosterone DO NOT FAST

I think you are confusing fasting with long term low carb paleo type diets.

 

[Westside PUFAs]

Effect of intermittent fasting and refeeding on insulin action in healthy men. - PubMed - NCBI
Time-restricted feeding improves insulin resistance and hepatic steatosis in a mouse model of postmenopausal obesity. - PubMed - NCBI
Intermittent Fasting Promotes White Adipose Browning and Decreases Obesity by Shaping the Gut Microbiota. - PubMed - NCBI
Effects of eight weeks of time-restricted feeding (16/8) on basal metabolism, maximal strength, body composition, inflammation, and cardiovascular risk factors in resistance-trained males
Impact of intermittent fasting on health and disease processes. - PubMed - NCBI

These are mainly for IF/ADF, the effects are even more dramatic with pure water fasting as insulin levels drop and stay low which is what triggers a lot of the benefits and gene expressions.

Again, I mentioned the other studies and benefits in this thread (below) and you were even engaged in the conversation. I talked and showed studies from everything from immune system enhancements to stem cell regeneration.

If You Don't Want Low Testosterone DO NOT FAST

I think you are confusing fasting with long term low carb paleo type diets.

None of those are human, water-only but nonetheless still show similar biomarkers like the work of Valter Longo.

 

[TubZy]

None of those are human, water-only but nonetheless still show similar biomarkers like the work of Valter Longo.

Correct, didn't think it would be a big deal since Peat and Haidut post rat studies all the time. I have some humans one but didn't know sci-hub is no longer available (edit: just saw your post on the human ones).

Water only would be more efficient since insulin levels drop and stay low for a longer period of time triggering the expressions. That is why anything that can trigger a release of insulin can negate some of the fasting benefits (like a BCAA supplement for example which is very common)

 

[Dhair]

No, the onus is on you to do your research. And with that I'm not suggesting that you should or shouldn't fast. I'm just saying it's you who has to come to your own conclusion after you've done what you consider to be sufficient research. I'll tell you what I've found.

When it specifically comes to water-only fasting, there is only one place that the published data is coming from.

Medically supervised water-only fasting in the treatment of borderline hypertension. - PubMed - NCBI

Water-only fasting and an exclusively plant foods diet in the management of stage IIIa, low-grade follicular lymphoma. - PubMed - NCBI

and unless these people are are paid liars, then there's their personal anecdotes. At least most of them show before and after photos as well as these 60 or so people at Lockman's place.

True North is a non-profit, it that means anything.

The reason why there is only one source of data is because there is virtually no way to get funding for real human long term trials. It would be massively expensive. Throw in the taboo against it and it's clear why Goldhamer's place is the only one in the US, which was inspired by Dr. Alec Burton's clinic in Australia, the Arcadia Health Centre. This isn't acupuncture, chiropractic, yoga or homeopathy. It's a very unique thing and a unique state. When you see someone in person doing it, you really feel their human-ness as opposed to just watching a video of it.

All other versions of "fasting" in the literature are mostly on mice and they are not true fasts but delayed feeding windows or abstinence from certain foods/activities. Those "fasts" may show similar biomarkers with true water-only fasting but it appears that water-only is the state that is the mother of all fasting. It's specifically autophagy, stem cells, and molecules called sirtuins that are what make it special.

The work of Valter Longo shows benefits from mimicking the water-only state.

"In both mice and a Phase 1 human clinical trial involving patients receiving chemotherapy, long periods of not eating significantly lowered white blood cell counts. In mice, fasting cycles then “flipped a regenerative switch,” changing the signaling pathways for hematopoietic stem cells, which are responsible for the generation of blood and immune systems, the research showed."

Fasting triggers stem cell regeneration of damaged, old immune system

The people that Travis mentioned go way back to the real "natural" days. Herbert Shelton, Hereward Carrington and others. Apparently there used to be clinics all over the place in the 1800's and early 1900's for MSWOF but they were shut down by the gov't. Then the ketogenic diet was developed to try to mimic the water-only state. I understand peoples skepticism. People should be skeptical of everything in the health world. But I personally find MSWOF fascinating because when you look at the research and the physiology of the body at the same time and it matches up, I get that lightbulb moment. This is what the human body does. It's built for this. It was designed by nature for this. Of course there are people who go their whole long lives without ever entering water-only induced ketosis. But it's just another area of the alt-health world and since we're doused with toxins from modern industry, many of which have only been around for a couple of grandparents, it may be an important thing to do, if you care to. There are people who find out about it, do it and benefit from it based on their writings and videos. So that's currently the bulk or the "data." But people say that about almost everything in the alt-health world. Therefore, do your research. Do what makes sense to you and never take anyones word for anything. But I assume that's common sense.

No, the onus is certainly not on me. I'm one person who is asking questions. I am not anonymously recommending long-term fasting to countless people on a public online forum. When you begin speaking in an authoritative way about something as serious as other people's health, you had damn well better have something to show for it. Im obviously referring to gbold here, not you.
Thanks for the links. I don't see anything convincing long-term, but it is somewhat interesting to think about. It would be an interesting experiment for someone who is already healthy.
I would like to see a more detailed write-up on how sustainable any perceived benefits are.
Also, having worked for a non-profit, I can tell you that no, it does not mean anything.

 

[Dhair]

Correct, didn't think it would be a big deal since Peat and Haidut post rat studies all the time. I have some humans one but didn't know sci-hub is no longer available (edit: just saw your post on the human ones).

Water only would be more efficient since insulin levels drop and stay low for a longer period of time triggering the expressions. That is why anything that can trigger a release of insulin can negate some of the fasting benefits (like a BCAA supplement for example which is very common)

The problem is not that they are animal studies. The problem is that they are intermittent fasting studies.
There is obviously a reason why people are resistant to accept long-term fasting benefits. We can find no scientific evidence of it.

 

[TubZy]

I agree with him on zinc, high-zinc diets seem to be better for preventing hypothyroidism than high-copper diets. I can disagree with ray on this because I am aware of a study that showed zinc supplementation prevented a decrease in thyroid acrivity in people doing low-intensity cardio.

As for fasting, I think short-term fasts can work for boosting testosterone (at least for a short time) since when you fast LH will go up.

I looked up many studies on long-term fasting, most of them show decreased testosterone.

If you want to do short-term fasts you could experience a short boost in testosterone, however I think the claim that if your test goes down during one of gbold's gandhi-style long-term fasts (it most likely will) it will be made up for by an increase in receptors is untrue.

Low testosterone tends to cause a decrease in the density of androgen receptor protein, so I just doubt that the effective hypogonadism caused by long-term fasting will be made up for by an increase in AR.

That is not what Gbol said. He never suggests a diet to be high in zinc, but a balanced diet (he talks about copper all the time), he doesn't even suggest supplements in general that is why he mentions eating seafood (shellfish) all in the time because all the minerals are in balance (zinc, copper, selenium etc.). So I think you still don't even understand the basics of what he is saying still whether you agree or disagree with him.

You know my stance on the T and fasting subject as we discussed this before and Westside also already replied to you about how inaccurate the studies you showed are. On top of that, fasting increases the benefits that are seen with high T levels (fat loss, improved insulin sensitivity, improved skin tone, lower inflammation etc.).

 

[Mito]

Shredded‐coconut‐stuffed dates ...taste like cupcakes.

Do you buy these somewhere or make them yourself?

 

[TubZy]

The problem is not that they are animal studies. The problem is that they are intermittent fasting studies.
There is obviously a reason why people are resistant to accept long-term fasting benefits. We can find no scientific evidence of it.

At the end of the day, you can do whatever you want as I know your health is in shambles as you explained it to me in the other thread (fasting could possibly help). From my personal experience, and the loads of anecdotal logs and evidence that show the benefits of water fasting are there. Like I said the benefits of water fasting are from reduced insulin levels and the more they are reduced they better the outcome is so if you put 2 and 2 together you don't really need step by step directions telling you what to do (IF vs water fast). That is why fasting in general is more beneficial over a keto diet since fat and protein can still stimulate some insulin secretion.

People are resistant to accept longer fasts because anti fasting is mainstream and there is no money in it. If there was one forum that would understand that it would be this one. I guess by that logic most "people" in general think sugar/carbs is the devil, so does that automatically make sugar really bad then? Your logic is very hypocritical and I don't think people are going to commit suicide over a longer fast like you said.

Fasting has been around for hundreds of years anyways and are part of many religions as well.

 

[alywest]

Seriously this is getting to be a totally pointless debate. Unless someone is starving a child who has no say in the matter, it's really none of my business if another adult wants to fast. I appreciate everyone's input on the matter and I'm sure I could make a more informed choice on whether or not fasting is a good thing, but you guys are beating a dead horse here. And I don't mean "I" like this is about me. I'm saying everyone has made their comments and anyone reading this can clearly make a choice based on all of the evidence or lack thereof. We are all free to make our own choices and the consequences are ours as well. If you were forcing a child to fast, I would call CPS, though!

 

[Westside PUFAs]

No, the onus is certainly not on me. I'm one person who is asking questions. I am not anonymously recommending long-term fasting to countless people on a public online forum. When you begin speaking in an authoritative way about something as serious as other people's health, you had damn well better have something to show for it. Im obviously referring to gbold here, not you.

Well unless he has links to published trials in the Russian version of PubMed then don't expect him to give you any data on it. That is one of his faults, not just the way he speaks about fasting, look at how he speaks about everything he talks about. It's all in that same way. So that shows you how he is.

It would be an interesting experiment for someone who is already healthy.

Yea and people often find out that they aren't as healthy as they thought when they hit the healing crisis. I know that sounds woo, but I'm just giving you the terms and the culture of it. I did see it in person. Crisis is often too harsh a word. Its usually just minor things like lower back pain, rashes that flare up as stuff "comes out" etc.

I would like to see a more detailed write-up on how sustainable any perceived benefits are.

Here's one:

https://raypeatforum.com/community/attachments/chapter37-pdf.6940/

"Research into fasting has been reported since 1880, with the earliest record of therapeutic fasting in the medical literature appearing in 1910. The earliest research was primarily observational, as physiologic and metabolic changes were recorded while an individual fasted—Tanner (40 days in 1880),33 Jacques (30 days in 1887 and 40 days in 1888),34 Penny (30 days in 1905),35 and Levanzin (31 days in 1912).18

In 1923, the classic Fasting and Undernutrition provided in-depth analysis of animal and human physiologic changes and reactions during fasting by Morgulis at the University of Nebraska.30"

 

[Westside PUFAs]

The history of it in the US is all there under the "history" part starting with Issac Jennings in 1822.

 

[Dhair]

Well unless he has links to published trials in the Russian version of PubMed then don't expect him to give you any data on it. That is one of his faults, not just the way he speaks about fasting, look at how he speaks about everything he talks about. It's all in that same way. So that shows you how he is.



Yea and people often find out that they aren't as healthy as they thought when they hit the healing crisis. I know that sounds woo, but I'm just giving you the terms and the culture of it. I did see it in person. Crisis is often too harsh a word. Its usually just minor things like lower back pain, rashes that flare up as stuff "comes out" etc.



Here's one:

https://raypeatforum.com/community/attachments/chapter37-pdf.6940/

"Research into fasting has been reported since 1880, with the earliest record of therapeutic fasting in the medical literature appearing in 1910. The earliest research was primarily observational, as physiologic and metabolic changes were recorded while an individual fasted—Tanner (40 days in 1880),33 Jacques (30 days in 1887 and 40 days in 1888),34 Penny (30 days in 1905),35 and Levanzin (31 days in 1912).18

In 1923, the classic Fasting and Undernutrition provided in-depth analysis of animal and human physiologic changes and reactions during fasting by Morgulis at the University of Nebraska.30"

The link isn't working for me for some reason.
Yeah, I definitely cringe when people use phrases like "healing crisis" and "detox symptoms."

 

[Westside PUFAs]

The link isn't working for me for some reason.
Yeah, I definitely cringe when people use phrases like "healing crisis" and "detox symptoms."

 

[Travis]

Do you buy these somewhere or make them yourself?

I make them myself. I can get coconuts right now for $1.39 apiece—and they're big, like 2,000 Cal coconuts.

At the end of the day, you can do whatever you want as I know your health is in shambles as you explained it to me in the other thread (fasting could possibly help). From my personal experience, and the loads of anecdotal logs and evidence that show the benefits of water fasting are there. Like I said the benefits of water fasting are from reduced insulin levels and the more they are reduced they better the outcome is so if you put 2 and 2 together you don't really need step by step directions telling you what to do (IF vs water fast). That is why fasting in general is more beneficial over a keto diet since fat and protein can still stimulate some insulin secretion.

This is interesting; I've never thought of this.

All of Classic Books on fasting had some thorough observations but were written at a time when little was known about such things as insulin. It's interesting to hear of biochemical pathways that could explain some of those observations.

Correct, didn't think it would be a big deal since Peat and Haidut post rat studies all the time. I have some humans one but didn't know sci-hub is no longer available (edit: just saw your post on the human ones).

Sci‐hub is certainly still available. I am confirming this as I type. (Try using sci‐hub.bz instead of sci‐hub.cc.)

Rats are mammals too, and they wouldn't be used at all if it were thought that we couldn't draw conclusions from using them. Believe it or not, much of the DNA is still the same and so are the steroids, catecholamines, indolamines, polyamines, and eicosanoids. There are a few differences in the protein hormones—like rat vs human prolactin (or insulin)—but these variations are just in insignificant amino acids which can be freely substituted; the functions are the same. Even in enzymes, some amino acids can be substituted without it losing any function.

Here is cow vs human insulin (from uniprot.com):

MALWTRLRPL LALLALWPPP PARAFVNQHL CGSHLVEALY LVCGERGFFY
TPKARREVEG PQVGALELAG GPGAGGLEGP PQKRGIVEQC CASVCSLYQL
ENYCN

MALWMRLLPL LALLALWGPD PAAAFVNQHL CGSHLVEALY LVCGERGFFY
TPKTRREAED LQVGQVELGG GPGAGSLQPL ALEGSLQKRG IVEQCCTSIC
SLYQLENYCN ​

These are close, and highlights the extent of the differences. All structural proteins, such as collagen and tubulin, are also quite similar if not identical. The alanine for glycine substitutions above are minor, as these are nonspecific amino acids, and it appears as if only the 'heads' of the molecules are even necessary. I'm pretty sure that animal insulin was even given to humans at one point in time (before recombinant insulin).

'Mice and humans each have about 30,000 genes, yet only 300 are unique to either organism. Both even have genes for a tail, even though it's not "switched on" in humans.' ―CNN​

 

[RMJ]

does someone have full acces to this study? (10 day water fast)

https://academic.oup.com/jcem/article-abstract/53/2/258/2677511?redirectedFrom=fulltext

the guy from anabolicmen claims it shows an insane T rebound while refeeding

https://www.anabolicmen.com/weird-tricks-to-raise-testosterone/

 

[Wagner83]

does someone have full acces to this study? (10 day water fast)

https://academic.oup.com/jcem/article-abstract/53/2/258/2677511?redirectedFrom=fulltext

the guy from anabolicmen claims it shows an insane T rebound while refeeding

https://www.anabolicmen.com/weird-tricks-to-raise-testosterone/

I don't think the T levels one day after the fast are relevant, we want to see long term consequences on health, afaik (which isn't exactly a long journey ahead ), the huge rise could be because those hormones are much needed after days/weeks with low levels of them.

 

[Dhair]

I don't think the T levels one day after the fast are relevant, we want to see long term consequences on health, afaik (which isn't exactly a long journey ahead ), the huge rise could be because those hormones are much needed after days/weeks with low levels of them.

This.

 

[TubZy]

does someone have full acces to this study? (10 day water fast)

Reproductive Function during Fasting in Men * | The Journal of Clinical Endocrinology & Metabolism | Oxford Academic

the guy from anabolicmen claims it shows an insane T rebound while refeeding

https://www.anabolicmen.com/weird-tricks-to-raise-testosterone/

Yeah, I talked about it in the other thread, so I'll just quote my self again from it. I did pull the entire study but it was on the old sci-hub domain, I need to use the new one that Travis mentioned to get the full study again.

Although here are the excerpts from it and it was much much longer than a day and it could even be longer than what the chart shows as they stopped measuring it but it was still trending upwards. I experienced this when I refeed as well. I mean we are talking doubling levels levels of T, 1600+. I don't know any supplement that could ever get your T levels even that high unless you used exogenous T.

Since we are talking about androgen sensitivity, @gbolduev seems to be right in this respect in terms of AFTER fasting your body responds extremely well and can re-sensitize it. I noticed this as well after a ten day water fast.

Look at the massive increase of T upon refeeding! Even going from OP's info, the higher T will increase AR density further, well I guess fasting will even increase AR density further with that massive spike..

https://sci-hub.cc/https://academic...during-Fasting-in-Men?redirectedFrom=fulltext

Also if you just wanted pure T levels, here you go.

Pituitary-testicular axis in obese men during short-term fasting. - PubMed - NCBI.

Short-term fasting increased the GnRH-elicited LH response by 67% in the non-obese group (LH incremental areas 2147 +/- 304 vs 3581 +/- 256, p less than 0.01), and the corresponding testosterone response by 180% (testosterone incremental areas 111 +/- 61 vs 311 +/- 49 micrograms.l-1.min-1, p less than 0.01). These results imply that food deprivation affects the pituitary-testicular axis differently in obese and non-obese men.



Since this thread is about BBing....

Fasting enhances growth hormone secretion and amplifies the complex rhythms of growth hormone secretion in man.


If you want more studies on the benefits of short term fasting and its benefits for insulin sensitivity and immune function, let me know. BTW, I'm not 100% pro fasting, but I think an occasional water fast isn't as bad as some of you demonize it. I did a ten day water fast and my muscle is still fine but my muscles respond to carbs 20x better, so I don't get all the hype that you are losing muscle, majority of it water.