DHT Causes Hair Loss, You Sure About That?

[jonnytrigger]

Honestly, whenever I see someone regrowing hair in an article I become interested in their story, but when finasteride and minoxidil are mentioned and they used it, without involving nutrition, lab test, temp and pulse etc. that’s where I lost interest and their journey is just practically useless and pointless at the same time and they just don’t help at all. I think it’s a time waster in general now that I think about it.

Honestly, whenever I see someone regrowing hair in an article I become interested in their story, but when finasteride and minoxidil are mentioned and they used it, without involving nutrition, lab test, temp and pulse etc. that’s where I lost interest and their journey is just practically useless and pointless at the same time and they just don’t help at all. I think it’s a time waster in general now that I think about it.

Honestly I think people without a background in biochemistry wouldn't benefit from looking at lab results, little knowledge can be misleading. It's just not feasible for everyone to have a full panel of blood test for everything they take. Blood tests don't give the full picture nor does the ray peat pulse and temperature

 

[tankasnowgod]

Sorry but you seem to be convinced medicine and pharma are all incorrect in line with georgis saying 99% of science is fake and doctors are useless and conspiracy theories are bound to them. So what happens next is people with zero knowledge of science and medicine learn a few jargons and implement radical changes that they have very little knowledge of which can be dangerous.

The downstream effect of finastride on other hormones as you mentioned are what's causing the hair regrowth? if that were the case don't you think people would have figured that out as there are people alot smarter than you and I and ray peat, instead of selling dangerous drugs? Allopregnenolone regrows hair? Seriously. Even if that were the case by now everyone in this forum should have regrown pre puberty hairs by now, cos they've spent years on correcting their mitochondria and hormones unless everything needs to be down to a 0.01 range. I hoped the ray peat diet, supplements recommended by georgi would help but they only gave me personally silly side effects. Not saying my experience equals same for all. I'm just saying for a guy who looks fat and is nowood 7, to be making big claims to at least showcase it himself or on his clients yet he's obsessed with fancy theories that have not shown any real results so far. That is not how science works. Alot of people on here also tend to go search pudmed which isn't the most reliable place to begin with without understanding research methodology, they only learn things from ray peats quotes on random podcasts and then only find info that corroborates their own agenda even if it's a ***t quality paper. But a level 7 evidence is fake if it goes against anything ray peat has said.

Youre trying to correlate cartel and and finastride. well we can't expect things to be free, look at georgi's supplements for example very high in price but hey they're.close to organic and ray peat likes them. Do you see the point.

Ssri's are apparently bad but I haven't seen anyone in this forum fix their depression or anxiety with diet and lifestyle. I personally have seen great results with citalopram and I'm sure alot of people have as well but thinking rubbing progesterone and having a special diet to cure those issues is just silly because many people already have a decent diet. And those supplements aren't going to magically fix their issues neither does having lots of sugar.

We could sit here and complain about these drugs but hey they give real world results and I would dought it if everyone left medicine and their doctors and could fix all their health issues simply by monitoring their pulse and body temperature and eating a almost liquid diet with lots of sugar and taking antibiotics with zero knowledge. Realistically how many people would benefit from ray peat diet?

I never said Georgi is always right, nor that pharma and medicine are always "incorrect." But, from personal experience (including unnecessary surgery), and witnessing medical treatments take a heavy toll on both family members and coworkers (even causing death in a few), I do know that both doctors individually and the industry as a whole will peddle dangerous, expensive, and often ineffective treatments.

The reason I am wary of both Finasteride and Dutasteride, be it for hair loss or prostate issues, actually doesn't originally come from studies or news reports or PFS testimonials. It actually comes from an Avodart commercial. Yep, the advertising from the pharma company trying to pimp that drug-



Did you catch the disclaimer starting at 27 seconds? "Women should not take OR EVEN HANDLE Avodart due to the risk of a specific birth defect." After hearing that, I thought "If this drug is so dangerous that women shouldn't even touch it......... what is it doing to the men who take it?"

Let's again focus on your experience, since you believe that DHT equals hairloss, and you even took Finasteride in the past.

Did you measure your DHT levels before starting the drug? Did you know the levels that caused hairloss? Where they were with reference to reference range? Did you know the target levels that DHT was supposed to be lowered to? Did you take a DHT test while on the drug to see if it was lowering DHT levels to little, or too much?

Those measurements in itself would be something you would expect if you thought DHT directly influences hairloss.

 

[DhtAssassin]

In the past I've heard georgi say dht actually grows hair and its high in hair loss sufferers because oestrogen is too high. He also says taurine grows hair better than finastride, note this study was in an insect less than the size of an ant. I have never seen any case report with proof than any of his supplements working as well as finastride, minoxidil and dht blockers whilst on the contrary there is plenty of amazing results with the dht theory.


Here is one this guy literally regrew his whole head of hair.

Well he said that because he is selling his shitty supplements and has to say ridiculous things like that to keep selling them. Bald guy giving advice for hair loss.

 

[schultz]

The downstream effect of finastride on other hormones as you mentioned are what's causing the hair regrowth? if that were the case don't you think people would have figured that out as there are people alot smarter than you and I and ray peat, instead of selling dangerous drugs?

No I don't think they would have figured that out necessarily. Studies and study design, and evidence, are not straight-forward. You're giving too much credit to the science community. The mainstream haven't even figured out that PUFA and estrogen are dangerous meanwhile there are MOUNTAINS of evidence on these subjects going back to the early 1900's. I could gather enough evidence myself, someone with no university degree, in a single day to demonstrate this and meanwhile people with doctorates have no clue. These people are definitely smarter than I am, in the traditional sense, but apparently lack critical thinking skills or are just blinded by their profession and are rule followers who automatically agree with the majority of the times.

Also, I don't think they care about selling dangerous drugs.

Also, I don't think there are many people who have things as figured out as Ray does. There are smarter people, IE higher IQ's or whatever, but Ray has really put a lot of the puzzle pieces together. It's quite amazing. I actually don't think anybody has done a better job than him.

 

[MitchMitchell]

I don’t think DHT is causal per se, I think it’s a host of minor degenerative processes that happen to ramp up 5a reductase which induces vasoconstriction and hypoxia at the scalp. All potent androgens do that.

Fin/Dut side effects are massively overblown here (see: nocebo effect) all I got from it was a more watery semen which was actually fun, you feel like Peter North.

It’s possible that being similar to progesterone, some do get low estrogen sides from Fin/Dut which is terrible for libido and ED. That’s why the solution would be Dhea or HCG.

DHT isn’t essential at all. We have androgen receptors not DHT receptors.

 

[jonnytrigger]

I never said Georgi is always right, nor that pharma and medicine are always "incorrect." But, from personal experience (including unnecessary surgery), and witnessing medical treatments take a heavy toll on both family members and coworkers (even causing death in a few), I do know that both doctors individually and the industry as a whole will peddle dangerous, expensive, and often ineffective treatments.

The reason I am wary of both Finasteride and Dutasteride, be it for hair loss or prostate issues, actually doesn't originally come from studies or news reports or PFS testimonials. It actually comes from an Avodart commercial. Yep, the advertising from the pharma company trying to pimp that drug-



Did you catch the disclaimer starting at 27 seconds? "Women should not take OR EVEN HANDLE Avodart due to the risk of a specific birth defect." After hearing that, I thought "If this drug is so dangerous that women shouldn't even touch it......... what is it doing to the men who take it?"

Let's again focus on your experience, since you believe that DHT equals hairloss, and you even took Finasteride in the past.

Did you measure your DHT levels before starting the drug? Did you know the levels that caused hairloss? Where they were with reference to reference range? Did you know the target levels that DHT was supposed to be lowered to? Did you take a DHT test while on the drug to see if it was lowering DHT levels to little, or too much?

Those measurements in itself would be something you would expect if you thought DHT directly influences hairloss.

Yh no doubt not all doctors and scientist are correct or care for all their patients seen as though they're seeing patients every 10-20 minutes. But can't just say they're no use so I'm gonna start treating my self. American doctors probably are awful and overpaid.

Finastride in women and babies will of course have different effects. But doesn't in men. Plenty of guy on fin come off and conceive with no problems. That test and oestrogen aren't that much different in structure all, a slight difference in che.ical bonds make them complete different hormones, so finastride does work differently in men women and children.

No I don't measure my dht, but it didn't cause all the side effects everyone says it does. I exercise and eat good food, but I bet most that do get sides are unhealthy as hell or have messed up hor.ones to begin with, but again alot of people here are vague they just say these are the potential side effects which can occur but what are the chances of it happening and manny people actually get them. No one here has looked closely enough at the actual data, they like to read abstracts as most don't have education in research or background in biochemistry etc.

But point is till now lots of testimonials with fin, minox, RU etc but I have not seen any from ray peat danny roddy or Georgi or anyone on this forum. You can't make fancy theories and say this is how it is. Gotta have real life evidence which I have not found my self or seen in others following advice from ray peat community

 

[tankasnowgod]

Fin/Dut side effects are massively overblown here (see: nocebo effect)

Are the Avodart commercials also massively overblowing the side effects by saying that women shouldn't even TOUCH the medication?



And clearly, it's not just this forum. Here's a news clip taking about both finasteride and dutasteride increasing the risk of a more serious form of prostate cancer (a warning that comes from the FDA). Notice the doctor in the clip says he would avoid these drugs for treating BPH at this point, since the increased risk of death isn't worth is. I have to imagine that warning would go double for anyone taking them trying to regrow hair.

 

[tankasnowgod]

No I don't measure my dht,

Why not? This is simple, routine stuff. Before doctors put you on TRT, they measure testosterone to confirm that it is in fact low, even if you have all sorts of symptoms suggesting it's low. Wouldn't you want to confirm that DHT is high before you go attempting to lower DHT using drugs with possible "sexual side effects or tenderness or swelling of the breast?" Note, that is straight from the Avodart commercial.

But can't just say they're no use so I'm gonna start treating my self.

Yes you can, and I personally have. It's certainly been one of the more rewarding decisions of my life.

No one here has looked closely enough at the actual data, they like to read abstracts as most don't have education in research or background in biochemistry etc.

Funny that you say this, and you STILL haven't posted the studies that I asked for regarding DHT and hairloss. So I'll say it again-

Please post a study or studies showing that bald or balding men have higher levels of DHT than men with full heads of hair. This will at least establish correlation.

Please then post studies of men who took supplemental DHT and went bald as a result. This will strengthen your argument.

So far, you have posted nothing. You are suggesting you have looked at the actual data, so take some time, dig up the studies you formed your opinion on, and post them.

 

[jonnytrigger]

I don’t think DHT is causal per se, I think it’s a host of minor degenerative processes that happen to ramp up 5a reductase which induces vasoconstriction and hypoxia at the scalp. All potent androgens do that.

Fin/Dut side effects are massively overblown here (see: nocebo effect) all I got from it was a more watery semen which was actually fun, you feel like Peter North.

It’s possible that being similar to progesterone, some do get low estrogen sides from Fin/Dut which is terrible for libido and ED. That’s why the solution would be Dhea or HCG.

DHT isn’t essential at all. We have androgen receptors not DHT receptors.

Yes but no one wants to accept this lol. DHT may not be the cause but sure as hell it has a big role because modifying DHT, TEST significantly affects hairloss directly or indirectly no one really knows.

if dht, test didn't cause hairloss, women would be bald as my knee caps, given their oestrogen is high, contrary to what people beleive oestrogen actually is essential that's why it's in the body lowering it because it's "stress hormine" is dangerous ben in men.

And if dht didn't have a role in hairloss people using minox or hair stimulants would t go bald immediately after stopping those because it's likely that it accumulates over time

 

[jonnytrigger]

No I don't think they would have figured that out necessarily. Studies and study design, and evidence, are not straight-forward. You're giving too much credit to the science community. The mainstream haven't even figured out that PUFA and estrogen are dangerous meanwhile there are MOUNTAINS of evidence on these subjects going back to the early 1900's. I could gather enough evidence myself, someone with no university degree, in a single day to demonstrate this and meanwhile people with doctorates have no clue. These people are definitely smarter than I am, in the traditional sense, but apparently lack critical thinking skills or are just blinded by their profession and are rule followers who automatically agree with the majority of the times.

Also, I don't think they care about selling dangerous drugs.

Also, I don't think there are many people who have things as figured out as Ray does. There are smarter people, IE higher IQ's or whatever, but Ray has really put a lot of the puzzle pieces together. It's quite amazing. I actually don't think anybody has done a better job than him.

No offence but are you really telling me you know more about hair loss than someone with medical degree and phd who's got experience of working with patients and doing research specifically in hairloss?

Do you really think you can sit on a panel with those kinda guys and argue about how you know pufa and oestrogen causes hair loss? Do u even realise how ridiculous you sound

You can't just become an expert but throwing the words pufa and oestrogen without knowing much about how they work. Alot of people here have developed a relegion out of ray peat, everything he says is taken religiously but don't have evidence. Just like the covid issue, ray peat said it's notting and scaremongering people but look where it gotten

 

[tankasnowgod]

DHT may not be the cause but sure as hell it has a big role because modifying DHT, TEST significantly affects hairloss directly or indirectly no one really knows.

Second page of the thread, and already backtracking on statement you put forward in the title, eh?

 

[mrchibbs]

No offence but are you really telling me you know more about hair loss than someone with medical degree and phd who's got experience of working with patients and doing research specifically in hairloss?

Do you really think you can sit on a panel with those kinda guys and argue about how you know pufa and oestrogen causes hair loss? Do u even realise how ridiculous you sound

You can't just become an expert but throwing the words pufa and oestrogen without knowing much about how they work. Alot of people here have developed a relegion out of ray peat, everything he says is taken religiously but don't have evidence. Just like the covid issue, ray peat said it's notting and scaremongering people but look where it gotten

I recommend searching for the tag "covid-19". Brillant people on this forum have collected more than enough evidence showing covid-19 to be ridiculously benign, ever since early last winter.

Instead of slandering Ray and his work, and minimizing the opinions of many people on this forum who have done nothing but share evidence and discuss the implications of Ray's work, do everyone here a favor and try to show some respect by actually reading the posts on this forum instead of spouting off nonsense.

 

[jonnytrigger]

Why not? This is simple, routine stuff. Before doctors put you on TRT, they measure testosterone to confirm that it is in fact low, even if you have all sorts of symptoms suggesting it's low. Wouldn't you want to confirm that DHT is high before you go attempting to lower DHT using drugs with possible "sexual side effects or tenderness or swelling of the breast?" Note, that is straight from the Avodart commercial.



Yes you can, and I personally have. It's certainly been one of the more rewarding decisions of my life.

Well in uk health care is free I'd rather see a qualified specialist then do everything my self sure doctors can't fix everything, but releastically if everyone started to ditch their doctors and started doing ray peat diets, I bet a lot of them would harm them selves.

 

[jonnytrigger]

Second page of the thread, and already backtracking on statement you put forward in the title, eh?

Yh because you've stretched it out to ssri and pharma cartel lol.

 

[MitchMitchell]

Second page of the thread, and already backtracking on statement you put forward in the title, eh?

I think they agreed with my statement that it’s not the indirect root cause

I’m positive that on a direct level (at the hair follicle and its surrounding vascular environment) non aromatizing androgens in excess aren’t beneficial at all. Women do shed aggressively but nowhere near as bad as men of course. Personally I blame stress hormones for the root cause of things. If I’m stressed out, blocking 5ar does nothing to address the stress issue, but it sure as hell stops any and all shedding. If I get minor sexual changes well idgaf about them because my confidence has always been very high in that department. On the other hand I’d bet it’s not a stretch to theorize that young dudes who are obsessed with their hairline and are insecure about their attractiveness will totally freak out if their precious dingy dong doesn’t respond well once “ITS THE DRUGS I KNEW IT IM SCREWED FOREVER”

there is something to be said about the psychology of hair loss patients... they’re probably not the same average joes as those who are recruited in big Pharma studies.

I also think that it’s entirely possible that we’re overdosing people on those drugs. Reminds me of accutane being insanely potent. Used to be prescribed at doses up to 1mg/kg/day then people started realizing that 10mg twice a week does the job. That’s basic sales tactics tho.

less is more with 5ar drugs?

 

[jonnytrigger]

I recommend searching for the tag "covid-19". Brillant people on this forum have collected more than enough evidence showing covid-19 to be ridiculously benign, ever since early last winter.

Instead of slandering Ray and his work, and minimizing the opinions of many people on this forum who have done nothing but share evidence and discuss the implications of Ray's work, do everyone here a favor and try to show some respect by actually reading the posts on this forum instead of spouting off nonsense.

I know ray peat peat him self said that in a podcast, maybe you should listen to some of those, everyone on here seems to be a self proclaimed scientist, but can't discuss something without being so pressed about everything that is said against their argument

I don't have anything against ray peat, but.more so the people that take every word of his religiously because somehow he's right on everything under the sun. Peat is very interesting but he mixes politics and science Abit too often and I haven't seen any actual scientific articles. Sure he might have he's reasons but people seem to think he's experience with a supplement on his friends child 30 years ago is more credible than what science has to offer today

 

[tankasnowgod]

I know ray peat peat him self said that in a podcast, maybe you should listen to some of those, everyone on here seems to be a self proclaimed scientist, but can't discuss something without being so pressed about everything that is said against their argument

I am completely willing to discuss the DHT and hairloss studies you based your opinion on if you can post them. A link to the pubmed abstract is fine, I know how to use Sci Hub.

 

[MitchMitchell]

I’ve never tried progesterone but I’d guess that massive doses would bring similar side effects

 

[mrchibbs]

I know ray peat peat him self said that in a podcast, maybe you should listen to some of those, everyone on here seems to be a self proclaimed scientist, but can't discuss something without being so pressed about everything that is said against their argument

Science: The observation, identification, description, experimental investigation, and theoretical explanation of phenomena.

I'd argue many people on this forum do better science than the majority of academic "scientists" with PHD who perpetrate dogma.

A little respect will go a long way if you want people to be receptive to what you have to say.

 

[jonnytrigger]

Science: The observation, identification, description, experimental investigation, and theoretical explanation of phenomena.

I'd argue many people on this forum do better science than the majority of academic "scientists" with PHD who perpetrate dogma.

A little respect will go a long way if you want people to be receptive to what you have to say.

Well I hope what you say is true but why don't people put out some evidence out there. The most prolific of this community is danny and Georgi,neither of them have put out any rigorous scientific papers out there that is applicable specifically for hairloss. There is alot of fancy theories but zero practicality to them. If thyroid and hormones and diet had as much of a role in hairloss, those in poor countries would be bald, I douby they have the best thyroid since they starve for days only to eat some bread and tea which supposedly lowers T3. indians the amount of pufa they consume they should have generations of hairloss but guess what they don't.