DHT Causes Hair Loss, You Sure About That?

[mrchibbs]

Well I hope what you say is true but why don't people put out some evidence out there. The most prolific of this community is danny and Georgi,neither of them have put out any rigorous scientific papers out there that is applicable specifically for hairloss. There is alot of fancy theories but zero practicality to them. If thyroid and hormones and diet had as much of a role in hairloss, those in poor countries would be bald, I douby they have the best thyroid since they starve for days only to eat some bread and tea which supposedly lowers T3. indians the amount of pufa they consume they should have generations of hairloss but guess what they don't.

Let me get this straight. So far you've said that

1) DHT is the cause of hair loss
2) People on this forum don't know anything and modern science is better
3) Ray Peat's only evidence is experiments on a friend's child 30 years ago

My question is, what the heck are you doing here?

If you were honestly looking for information, you would have taken the time to read the countless hairloss threads on this forum. If you want to take minoxidil + RU486 + finasteride, nobody's stopping you.

 

[MitchMitchell]

Pretty sure that 3rd world countries verify Metchnikoff’s famous discovery that age-decay is largely the result of the absorption into the system of poisons generated by decomposition in the intestinal canal (shout out to @tankasnowgod for the link). I think it is consistent with the idea of the immunogenic nature of hair loss.

Indians love their milk products. Other countries with low BMI certainly don’t constantly overeat like the average balding Caucasian.

 

[mrchibbs]

Pretty sure that 3rd world countries verify Metchnikoff’s famous discovery that age-decay is largely the result of the absorption into the system of poisons generated by decomposition in the intestinal canal (shout out to @tankasnowgod for the link). I think it is consistent with the idea of the immunogenic nature of hair loss.

Indians love their milk products. Other countries with low BMI certainly don’t constantly overeat like the average balding Caucasian.

Do you have this link, this sounds interesting?

 

[jonnytrigger]

I am completely willing to discuss the DHT and hairloss studies you based your opinion on if you can post them. A link to the pubmed abstract is fine, I know how to use Sci Hub.

I'm not arguing that dht is THE cause of hairloss but that it has a very big role in hairloss. Probably more than diet, pulse, etc. Yh no one really understands the mechanisms but dht lowering drugs give better results than other interventions.

I'm not a hairloss expert or claim to understand it all but I know how to research. Unfortunately this does not mean I can read any topic and understand it all clearly which also applies to many people on here who claim to know it all. The thing is though the pro androgenic alopecia guys have alot of data and experiments to show fin reduces hair loss while I haven't seen this from anyone in here who claims they've grown lots of hair by rubbing progesterone on hair balls etc.

Even progesterone tho it actually reduces dht but I don't know anyone that has hair grown hair from using it. I know someone a while ago said something like progesterone is a better treatment for hairloss than fin but no results, if that confident it's not that difficult to make a custom progesterone treatment for them selves to try but again we have to believe them because yh bro you just have to

 

[jonnytrigger]

Let me get this straight. So far you've said that

1) DHT is the cause of hair loss
2) People on this forum don't know anything and modern science is better
3) Ray Peat's only evidence is experiments on a friend's child 30 years ago

My question is, what the heck are you doing here?

If you were honestly looking for information, you would have taken the time to read the countless hairloss threads on this forum. If you want to take minoxidil + RU486 + finasteride, nobody's stopping you.

You've overblown things I've said, the video I posted shows results from fin, ru, minox. But no one wants to acknowledge the role of these androgens, or shown similar results with things they believe works better because of extreme bias, i was once almost like that because hoping this was it and would help but didn't.

I see alot of theories that sound interesting but non of them have had good outcomes in real life.

I like some stuff on here but the direction that this forum has been going into is very sad. It's almost like a cult similar to relegions. When you live in it so long you can't see it from the outside. So far the arguments from experts on here have been either accept this or your this and that, you have to believe what I have to say because ray peat said so and this theory proves so and so etc. But 99% of research is fake and conspiracy is everywhere.

 

[mrchibbs]

@jonnytrigger

Ok. Well I've argued several times with evidence that DHT is not the or a big player in hair loss. Androgens have been applied topically and regrew some hair, as far back as the 1960s. Valerie Randall, a mainstream hair researcher applied DHT topically and it regrew hair. Georgi has testimonies for several people who did the same and it either regrew some hair or didn't do anything.

DHT is upregulated in all tissues in stress, because it is preferentially converted from the massive amounts of DHEA pumped by the adrenals. It is antinfllammatory, opposes cortisol and there has never been any study showing it causes hair loss. It's just a theory, plain and simple.

Moreover, the mainstream science never talks about serotonin, prolactin, cortisol, aldosterone, these are all elevated in the scalp of balding men yet it's never part of the discussion, because mainstream science is more about perpetuating dogmas than looking at the evidence.

The focus on DHT is based on ideology. Why would a steroid that's so profoundly protective in other tissues be suddenly so evil on the scalp. Spoiler alert: it isn't.

We've discussed these things many, many times. 99.999% of lay people and men have never even heard about progesterone or can even grasp the idea that it could be good for hair. There has been NO studies on progesterone and hair, despite the facts that all the best results of regrowth are obtained from progestins (molecules derived from progesterone). The reason why you hear about stories with finasteride is that every random guy will learn about finasteride and minoxidil, so there's bound to be more accounts of regrowth which get publicity.

Sadly, we don't live in a coherent world where scientists actually follow through on evidence. On top of it, the pathology of ''male pattern baldness'' is downstream from some fundamental metabolic problems and hence why it is associated with so many other issues. It's a sign of severe degeneration, so any attempt to look at hair loss on the scalp in isolation of everything else will not bring the satisfactory results people crave.

 

[mrchibbs]

So far the arguments from experts on here have been either accept this or your this and that, you have to believe what I have to say because ray peat said so and this theory proves so and so etc. But 99% of research is fake and conspiracy is everywhere.

And to add to the nice claims you've already made, now according to you, 99% of the information on here is fake and we're all conspiracy lunatics.

You're such a nice dude.

 

[Mrscorpion360]

I’m the biggest moron of this forum. Lmao

 

[jonnytrigger]

@jonnytrigger

Ok. Well I've argued several times with evidence that DHT is not the or a big player in hair loss. Androgens have been applied topically and regrew some hair, as far back as the 1960s. Valerie Randall, a mainstream hair researcher applied DHT topically and it regrew hair. Georgi has testimonies for several people who did the same and it either regrew some hair or didn't do anything.

DHT is upregulated in all tissues in stress, because it is preferentially converted from the massive amounts of DHEA pumped by the adrenals. It is antinfllammatory, opposes cortisol and there has never been any study showing it causes hair loss. It's just a theory, plain and simple.

Moreover, the mainstream science never talks about serotonin, prolactin, cortisol, aldosterone, these are all elevated in the scalp of balding men yet it's never part of the discussion, because mainstream science is more about perpetuating dogmas than looking at the evidence.

The focus on DHT is based on ideology. Why would a steroid that's so profoundly protective in other tissues be suddenly so evil on the scalp. Spoiler alert: it isn't.

We've discussed these things many, many times. 99.999% of lay people and men have never even heard about progesterone or can even grasp the idea that it could be good for hair. There has been NO studies on progesterone and hair, despite the facts that all the best results of regrowth are obtained from progestins (molecules derived from progesterone). The reason why you hear about stories with finasteride is that every random guy will learn about finasteride and minoxidil, so there's bound to be more accounts of regrowth which get publicity.

Sadly, we don't live in a coherent world where scientists actually follow through on evidence. On top of it, the pathology of ''male pattern baldness'' is downstream from some fundamental metabolic problems and hence why it is associated with so many other issues. It's a sign of severe degeneration, so any attempt to look at hair loss on the scalp in isolation of everything else will not bring the satisfactory results people crave.

Okay suppose what you say is right, but why not post results, if people are willing to put progest e in rectum, scalp etc take experimental hormones and supplements for purposes they aren't intended for, surely they can take some standardised pictures and blur their faces to show results if they don't want to be seen publicly. but I have seen nil absolutely nil. If you really believe you and others here are better scientists than MD's with phd's and tons of clinical experience. why not help those sufferers by developing a treatment rathe than coming up with new theories that are not tangible or just saying you're wrong because the whole point of research is to make a change in others not prove boast who's right and wrong . if you really want to argue that peats ideas and what you guys have been doing is the right way the least you can do is document it rather than saying you have to believe some guy on the a forum because that isn't gonna convince the general public.

peace

 

[jonnytrigger]

And to add to the nice claims you've already made, now according to you, 99% of the information on here is fake and we're all conspiracy lunatics.

You're such a nice dude.

that's what Georgi and others have said about medicine and Pharma lol don't twist things up.

this community is probably large enough to run some of your own experiments since everyone is a scientist here. why not do that most of the supplements youve mentioned people have probably bought.

 

[tankasnowgod]

I'm not arguing that dht is THE cause of hairloss but that it has a very big role in hairloss. Probably more than diet, pulse, etc. Yh no one really understands the mechanisms but dht lowering drugs give better results than other interventions.

I'm not a hairloss expert or claim to understand it all but I know how to research. Unfortunately this does not mean I can read any topic and understand it all clearly which also applies to many people on here who claim to know it all. The thing is though the pro androgenic alopecia guys have alot of data and experiments to show fin reduces hair loss while I haven't seen this from anyone in here who claims they've grown lots of hair by rubbing progesterone on hair balls etc.

Even progesterone tho it actually reduces dht but I don't know anyone that has hair grown hair from using it. I know someone a while ago said something like progesterone is a better treatment for hairloss than fin but no results, if that confident it's not that difficult to make a custom progesterone treatment for them selves to try but again we have to believe them because yh bro you just have to

Okay, fair, but if you think DHT still plays a big role in hairloss, and are going to take drugs specifically to block formation of DHT......... why wouldn't you or your doctor measure and track DHT before and during treatment? Wouldn't it make sense so you could adjust dosage to get to the target DHT range, or switch to a different inhibitor if needed? Again, pretty straightforward and logical for a treatment. This is standard in TRT, thyroid supplementation, and iron lowering. Why isn't measuring DHT the very first step when even considering Propecia or Avodart?

Beyond whether DHT has any role in hair loss or not, it should still be noted that Fin and Dut are based on CASTRATION, and were developed as a chemical castration alternative. The side effects therefore, are not surprising, and you are risking quite a bit health wise (including prostate cancer, as the news clip I posted suggests) for what is largely a cosmetic problem.

 

[jonnytrigger]

that's what Georgi and others have said about medicine and Pharma lol don't twist things up

Okay, fair, but if you think DHT still plays a big role in hairloss, and are going to take drugs specifically to block formation of DHT......... why wouldn't you or your doctor measure and track DHT before and during treatment? Wouldn't it make sense so you could adjust dosage to get to the target DHT range, or switch to a different inhibitor if needed? Again, pretty straightforward and logical for a treatment. This is standard in TRT, thyroid supplementation, and iron lowering. Why isn't measuring DHT the very first step when even considering Propecia or Avodart?

Beyond whether DHT has any role in hair loss or not, it should still be noted that Fin and Dut are based on CASTRATION, and were developed as a chemical castration alternative. The side effects therefore, are not surprising, and you are risking quite a bit health wise (including prostate cancer, as the news clip I posted suggests) for what is largely a cosmetic problem.

bruh how come only 2% of those have these side effects, in most maybe lowered libido, yh its not ******* healthy to lower these hormones but they get their hair back at the expense of lowered libido. most on here I suppose don't even enter a gym because it'll raise their cortisol, but humans weren't exactly meant to be sedentary couch potatoes. I didn't get it from a doctor but a pharmacy. most still are able to function properly in areas fin supposedly affect, because test is still there.

you might find this interesting

 

[jonnytrigger]

Okay, fair, but if you think DHT still plays a big role in hairloss, and are going to take drugs specifically to block formation of DHT......... why wouldn't you or your doctor measure and track DHT before and during treatment? Wouldn't it make sense so you could adjust dosage to get to the target DHT range, or switch to a different inhibitor if needed? Again, pretty straightforward and logical for a treatment. This is standard in TRT, thyroid supplementation, and iron lowering. Why isn't measuring DHT the very first step when even considering Propecia or Avodart?

Beyond whether DHT has any role in hair loss or not, it should still be noted that Fin and Dut are based on CASTRATION, and were developed as a chemical castration alternative. The side effects therefore, are not surprising, and you are risking quite a bit health wise (including prostate cancer, as the news clip I posted suggests) for what is largely a cosmetic problem.

Minoxidil / Progesterone Topical Foam / Solution Compounded

this web sells protest and oestrogen in their solutions they mix fin and progesterone maybe a topic for experts here to discuss analyse.

 

[Lucas]

Hello.

I am on my 5 week of taking finasteride 1mg 3 times a week.

So far this are the results:

- No effect on libido, zero, nada.

- No effect on the gym, my strengh is the same

- I fell more calm since starting finasteride, it fell like a low dose progesterone (I know the feeling of taking progesterone, have taken it in the past

- Zero mood alteration, no brain fog, nothing, I still the same man whit fast reactions ( I evaded a fatal car crash when taking the drug, so I am still alive and thinking.

- Hair shedding has stoped, but still no regrowth.

- I am 42 years old, testosterone around 700, estradiol around 30, dht around 600-900

- At same time I am taking T4 112 mcg, and the results are low TSH, low Free T3, normal free t4

- My prolactin is high even with a low tsh and I have a microadenoma. Comes at 17 even taking T4. Maybe is time to start taking low dose cabergoline.

- Also my SHBG is above range whit a low TSH. This is very strange.

I will ask my doctor for a complete hormone test after 2 months on the finasteride.

Will test DHT, Testosterone, Free Testosterone, Prolactin, Progesterone, Estradiol. I know my baseline of these hormones before taking finasteride.



I really think that my hair loss is prolactin and thyroid related, but I wanted to test in practice the DHT theory.

I have a lot of pictures of the before. Any regrowth will be documented.

 

[jonnytrigger]

Hello.

I am on my 5 week of taking finasteride 1mg 3 times a week.

So far this are the results:

- No effect on libido, zero, nada.

- No effect on the gym, my strengh is the same

- I fell more calm since starting finasteride, it fell like a low dose progesterone (I know the feeling of taking progesterone, have taken it in the past

- Zero mood alteration, no brain fog, nothing, I still the same man whit fast reactions ( I evaded a fatal car crash when taking the drug, so I am still alive and thinking.

- Hair shedding has stoped, but still no regrowth.

- I am 42 years old, testosterone around 700, estradiol around 30, dht around 600-900

- At same time I am taking T4 112 mcg, and the results are low TSH, low Free T3, normal free t4

- My prolactin is high even with a low tsh and I have a microadenoma. Comes at 17 even taking T4. Maybe is time to start taking low dose cabergoline.

- Also my SHBG is above range whit a low TSH. This is very strange.

I will ask my doctor for a complete hormone test after 2 months on the finasteride.

Will test DHT, Testosterone, Free Testosterone, Prolactin, Progesterone, Estradiol. I know my baseline of these hormones before taking finasteride.



I really think that my hair loss is prolactin and thyroid related, but I wanted to test in practice the DHT theory.

I have a lot of pictures of the before. Any regrowth will be documented.

that's awesome keep us posted

has anyone discussed dutastride meso therapy that seems somewhat safer

 

[MitchMitchell]

At same time I am taking T4 112 mcg, and the results are low TSH, low Free T3, normal free t4

i think you’d benefit from t3/t4 then. Looks like hypothyroidism for you means low conversion

 

[MitchMitchell]

has anyone discussed dutastride meso therapy that seems somewhat safer

Yeah I’ve used it on and off. More watery semen. No issues otherwise but I don’t see the point taking doses over 1mg/wk. Hell im positive .5 mg/wk is enough. DUTCH test showed nonexistent DHT on 1mg/wk. T and E weren’t high enough tho whereas cortisol was over range so I’ve come to the conclusion that my issue wasn’t androgens but rather cortisol. Been supplementing DHEA and restricting the diet

@mrchibbs The Milk Diet: Macfadden Book, Chapter I

 

[mrchibbs]

@mrchibbs The Milk Diet: Macfadden Book, Chapter I

Thx!

 

[jonnytrigger]

Yeah I’ve used it on and off. More watery semen. No issues otherwise but I don’t see the point taking doses over 1mg/wk. Hell im positive .5 mg/wk is enough. DUTCH test showed nonexistent DHT on 1mg/wk. T and E weren’t high enough tho whereas cortisol was over range so I’ve come to the conclusion that my issue wasn’t androgens but rather cortisol. Been supplementing DHEA and restricting the diet

@mrchibbs The Milk Diet: Macfadden Book, Chapter I

hmm couldn't find it there and I meant to write injection mesotherapy

somewhat interesting results from this study

EVALUATION OF THE EFFECT OF INJECTION OF DUTASTERIDE AS MESOTHERAPEUTIC TOOL IN TREATMENT OF ANDROGENETIC ALOPECIA IN MALES

 

[mrchibbs]

@jonnytrigger

If you want to try finasteride yourself, it's perfectly in your rights. But minimizing the risk of 5-alpha-reductase inhibitors is completely irresponsible.

Saying things like ''only 2% have side effects'' is pure outdated Merck propaganda and is completely inconsistent with the literature over the past decade.

You cannot say these things when its abundantly clear these medications affect things like fundamental neurological pathways, brain chemistry, cardiovascular system on top of sexual function. Abdulmaged M Traish is the foremost researcher in this field and his output over the last 5-6 years is pretty unequivocal:

Traish AM - Search Results - PubMed

Focusing on scalp hair in isolation is an extremely slippery slope.