Danny's crusade against Mercola on Progest-E

[Pete Rey]

I would love to see some actual lists of what people in these groups were eating on The Ray Peat Diet™, and what they eat now. Were they living off milk, OJ, coke, and carrots?

I for one have been eating a normal balanced diet inspired by Peat (or at least I thought) over the last 4 years, and my health has only improved for it. But the funny thing is, I also seem to eat a bit like the vitamin A-heads (A-holes? Just a joke, don't ban me). I don't really have a taste for liver or milk. I dropped eggs when I came around to limiting fat intake. The bulk of my food is lean meat, fish, rice, potatoes, and lots of fruit and fruit juice...but also nightshades, carrots, coffee, and honey.

I actually sympathize with everyone wanting it to be right. I think my health was harmed by multivitamins as a child (but mostly due to iron). I agree milk shouldn't be doped with anything or at least there should be options. I also sympathize with people who have been so abusively lied to that they think the earth is flat, and have 101 reasons why it is that all connect...But it's not. But believing it helps make sense of life.

And like @charlie freely admits, it's really a religious thing anyway, which is why I'm realizing there is no point in appealing to logic to get to the bottom of this. Because as much as I'd love to know if my tomatoes are killing me, it's an endless pit. There's always another "yes, but."

Just like the Mercola issue is not about plastic, the vitamin A issue is not about what is or is not toxic. It's about belief, and that Ray was a godless heathen who painted nudes and spoke well of communism, and that now in his passing there is a path to salvation, if only you choose to take it.

Belief alone can change the trajectory of your health, the vector is secondary.

 

[Dolomite]

I for one have been eating a normal balanced diet inspired by Peat (or at least I thought) over the last 4 years, and my health has only improved for it. But the funny thing is, I also seem to eat a bit like the vitamin A-heads (A-holes? Just a joke, don't ban me). I don't really have a taste for liver or milk. I dropped eggs when I came around to limiting fat intake. The bulk of my food is lean meat, fish, rice, potatoes, and lots of fruit and fruit juice...but also nightshades, carrots, coffee, and honey.

Your diet is not Peat inspired.

 

[ballomar]

Why are you so butt hurt because many people are getting sick from the Ray Peat diet but when they move away from the diet they are getting well and thriving?

What I'm seeing in all these "examples" from the internet is orthorexia; people who are so obsessed with eating "right" that they end up malnourished and nutrient deficient.

In particular, I'm seeing people under eat. There are only so many calories you can get from orange juice and milk and until you feel sick and can't stand the thought of another flass. Seriously, how many oranges do you have to squeeze to get so much orange juice? Or are people downing the mass-produced toxic junk from the supermarket?

IME it's very hard to hit calorie targets unless you introduce carbs, in particular bread. Sometimes you need other sources of calories. For example, during harvest time our ancestors used to chug beer because of the hydration and calories (also B vitamins and electrolytes). How else is someone going to consume 8000 calories/day?

For those of us of European descent, our ancestors diet was lots of raw milk, lots of beef (of course people ate the whole animal, not just the liver), lots of broth, pork sausage and sourdough bread. Some vegetables depending on the season, much of it lacto-fermented.

It's all reasonably Peaty taking into account climate and local conditions.

 

[charlie]

Cultists gonna cult. Such a lovely email to wake up to this morning.

You're an utter disgrace. You haven't become "a better person" at all, you don't know "how to think" and "follow any man religiously" is exactly what you decided to do last year. As opposed to simply asking for the help you needed.

Your demonic horse has been torn limb from limb on your sordid little forum and Twitter. And this will only continue.

If you remain unwilling to climb down and restore any account you banned around this. Nearly a million JSON objects and the wiki will land on a blockchain and seed a new distributed RPF with a function for mod elections. And it won't cost us a penny.

#rentfree

 

[Dolomite]

What I'm seeing in all these "examples" from the internet is orthorexia; people who are so obsessed with eating "right" that they end up malnourished and nutrient deficient.

In particular, I'm seeing people under eat. There are only so many calories you can get from orange juice and milk and until you feel sick and can't stand the thought of another flass. Seriously, how many oranges do you have to squeeze to get so much orange juice? Or are people downing the mass-produced toxic junk from the supermarket?

IME it's very hard to hit calorie targets unless you introduce carbs, in particular bread. Sometimes you need other sources of calories. For example, during harvest time our ancestors used to chug beer because of the hydration and calories (also B vitamins and electrolytes). How else is someone going to consume 8000 calories/day?

For those of us of European descent, our ancestors diet was lots of raw milk, lots of beef (of course people ate the whole animal, not just the liver), lots of broth, pork sausage and sourdough bread. Some vegetables depending on the season, much of it lacto-fermented.

It's all reasonably Peaty taking into account climate and local conditions.

Your diet is not Peat inspired either. Wheat, muscle meat, beer, vegetables (especially fermented vegetables) are not recommended.

 

[Peatful]

Cultists gonna cult. Such a lovely email to wake up to this morning.


#rentfree

What is this?
What is the context?
Is this Thin Picking?
Why is this shared publicly?

What is going on?

Should I know what is going on?

Im utterly lost
And concerned….

 

[ballomar]

Your diet is not Peat inspired either. Wheat, muscle meat, beer, vegetables (especially fermented vegetables) are not recommended.

You know, Peat said some very sensible things. It is unnatural to eat only chicken breast and filet steak. Peat recommended more glycine rich foods including broth. Peat didn't like gluten, but then he also said he hadn't looked into sourdough, but then acknowledge that Mexican tortillas made the traditional way might be OK. Peat didn't like fermentation because he viewed lactic acid as carcinogenic, but then he ignored the important role that this has always had in colder climates.

His research showed that certain elements of the general industrial diet were damaging to health. But, you're taking Peat's research and turning into a fetish. If he says orange juice is good, you obsess over orange juice. If he says liver is good you eat no meat but liver. This is not a healthy approach.

My comment about orthorexia and calorie-deficiency stand. You should check out other ideas, like GAPS etc.

 

[Pete Rey]

Your diet is not Peat inspired.

Your diet is not Peat inspired either. Wheat, muscle meat, beer, vegetables (especially fermented vegetables) are not recommended.

No true Scotsman. That's precisely the problem here, and my entire point. Hence my quip above. No one is on The Ray Peat Diet™ because it doesn't exist. You need lateral thinking and self-awareness to incorporate Peat principles into your life, because that's all they are, principles.

Did he ever say, "Don't eat meat" or "Don't eat rice?" No, he spoke of nutrient ratios and endotoxins and why one thing might be better than another. He answered affirmative questions with "I think so," not "absolutely."

(Oh, I do make and enjoy some bone broth too. And I do agree wheat and beer is pretty antithetical to Peat.)

You're taking the words of a philosopher and treating them like the words of a doctor. "Just tell me what to eat, doc." If that's what you need then maybe it really is better that you pay the man to go on his church-inspired diet.

 

[Jennifer]

Your diet is not Peat inspired either. Wheat, muscle meat, beer, vegetables (especially fermented vegetables) are not recommended.

Over the years I’ve heard and read Ray recommend muscle meat such as oxtail and vegetables such as carrots, mushrooms, bamboo shoots, turnips and kale broth, and this is what he wrote me in an email exchange back in February of 2015:

“I recommend a diet including milk, eggs, cheese, orange juice and some other fruits, sea food, certain meats (emphasizing gelatinous things), and occasionally liver. I usually recommend some butter, coconut oil, and some occasional olive oil (for example with a carrot salad). I think any active adult should get at least 100 grams of protein per day.”

 

[InChristAlone]

But for us with orthorexia, the Ray Peat diet did exist. Lol. We took everything he said seriously. So if he said something could harm us we avoided it! If he said something was good for us we ate it a lot! That's just how our brains work. I realized after a while that's not how our body works though. That's why I still believe Ray was self medicating his autistic like genius brain. He thinks logically like most autists. If he felt good eating something he did it a lot. (Hence 50 cups of coffee at one point) If he could find the reason something did him wrong in medical science he ran with it.

Problem becomes when we copy what someone else feels. He didn't say to copy his diet, no, but he did make good and bad statements.

What makes me feel good won't make someone else feel good. That's hard for autists to wrap their mind around. Because one of the greatest deficits in our brain is perspective taking (same for ADHD, it can be developed though).

So the quest for one size fits all is the common denominator in diet groups.

Thankfully Ray did say perceive think act so we can defer back to that, and continue on the journey of life.

 

[Peatful]

Cultists gonna cult. Such a lovely email to wake up to this morning.


#rentfree

What is this?
What is the context?
Is this Thin Picking?
Why is this shared publicly?

What is going on?

Should I know what is going on?

Im utterly lost
And concerned….

I see you changed the formatting to include the author now
Yet your post doesn’t show edited

I still don’t understand why this is posted here?
So disappointing


Im on a thread about Kenogen / Progest E

I don’t care about Danny or Mercola
And really don’t want to engage in any VA fodder

I care about Ray and Katherine
His legacy
And her livelihood

Edited: word

 

[vocedilegno]

Because Ray Peat was not a liar, he died by his own sword and believed in what he was doing. And he is not wrong about everything, a lot of his work still stands and he helped make me the better person that I am for teaching me how to think and to not follow any man religously. Why are you so butt hurt because many people are getting sick from the Ray Peat diet but when they move away from the diet they are getting well and thriving? That seems odd to me. Why does it bother you so much that a man can be wrong about something and when people find an answer to why he was wrong and want to share it to help others you start making up absolute BS statements like the one in the quote?

I had thought better and stopped short of posting the above. Then later all I wanted to say was “does vitamin A raise ALDH”

But because of the way the website works, everything I had originally drafted remained in the text box above the visibility threshold when I came back to ask my short question about ALDH.

It wasn’t supposed to be sent. So I didn’t intend for you to see the message and once I realized I had posted I deleted as quickly as I could, but I presume you can see the edit history given that you are the website administrator. I didn’t want to be confrontational because as I wrote in the post (which you did not quote in its entirety) I really appreciate you creating this website and it’s helped me immensely with my health.

However if I recount Ray’s own story about the wheat germ and you dismiss it as “cope” then you are calling him a liar!

Above, in this thread, you accused one of your users of malice for espousing the idea that fat soluble vitamin supplementation is good and/or necessary. I’m sure you can easily imagine that the same sentiment is flowing in the opposite direction by those who hold the opposite opinion.

Furthermore for you to use the phrase “Ray Peat Diet” has seemed a red flag to me from the beginning. Perceive/Think/Act also applies to the foods you choose to eat and Ray’s diet was an object of experimentation for him over the course of his life and career. He gave us information about chemistry and biology to raise our awareness of how different substances, food, hormones, etc. interact with our cells and organs. And of course he had certain ideas about diet but I don’t believe he presented them as a prescription from my reading of his articles, interviews, etc., but rather more as knobs we can turn when we intend to influence our health for the better

I hope this helps you understand why I am “butt hurt”

P.S. I don’t have the source handy for the wheat germ story but I remember it clearly
because of its relation to his discovery of the importance to the dietary Calcium/Phosphate ratio. He said he had experimented with a wheat-germ-only diet because he believed at the time that wheat germ was a perfect and complete nutritional source, and that when he lost several teeth from doing this he realized that it was because of the phosphate imbalance.

This account may have been something he said in an interview and it might take a long time to find. If anyone knows the reference please share here.

 

[Pete Rey]

But for us with orthorexia, the Ray Peat diet did exist. Lol. We took everything he said seriously. So if he said something could harm us we avoided it! If he said something was good for us we ate it a lot! That's just how our brains work. I realized after a while that's not how our body works though. That's why I still believe Ray was self medicating his autistic like genius brain. He thinks logically like most autists. If he felt good eating something he did it a lot. (Hence 50 cups of coffee at one point) If he could find the reason something did him wrong in medical science he ran with it.

Problem becomes when we copy what someone else feels. He didn't say to copy his diet, no, but he did make good and bad statements.

What makes me feel good won't make someone else feel good. That's hard for autists to wrap their mind around. Because one of the greatest deficits in our brain is perspective taking (same for ADHD, it can be developed though).

So the quest for one size fits all is the common denominator in diet groups.

Thankfully Ray did say perceive think act so we can defer back to that, and continue on the journey of life.

I've been diagnosed with both autism and ADHD, and am unmedicated. I know exactly the kind of behavior you're talking about, and I'm always checking in with myself to see if I'm going too hard on something. (And I just realized I've been doing it with this vitamin A business.) But the difference is, when I tried eating a lot of white sugar and drinking Coke, and I realized it wasn't working, I just stopped. I didn't throw the baby out with the bathwater. I didn't go looking for another guru to tell me how dumb that was, and how wrong Ray was. Because I could still hear the ring of truth in his holistic conception of diet, energy, and health.

I do accept that some people need hand-holding, which is why I would never tell anyone not to do these elimination diets. Because it can and does work. Just like I would never tell anyone that their religion is dumb. I'm religious myself, though not evangelical. I'm just not convinced that all these connect-the-dots theories are the reason it works. If it works, it works. Nothing wrong with hand-holding, but there is something wrong with creating a boogeyman out of someone who didn't do that.

 

[charlie]

It wasn’t supposed to be sent. So I didn’t intend for you to see the message and once I realized I had posted I deleted as quickly as I could, but I presume you can see the edit history given that you are the website administrator.

I saw your post immediately after you posted, I did not pull the quote from history.

I didn’t want to be confrontational because as I wrote in the post (which you did not quote in its entirety) I really appreciate you creating this website and it’s helped me immensely with my health.

Ray Peat immensely helped me too in the beginning. I had chronic fatigue syndrome and felt like I was dying. With his work I immediately pulled out of it. However, me and many other people have since figured out that high metabolism will only get a person so far until the toxins overwhelm.

Above, in this thread, you accused one of your users of malice for espousing the idea that fat soluble vitamin supplementation is good and/or necessary. I’m sure you can easily imagine that the same sentiment is flowing in the opposite direction by those who hold the opposite opinion.

Giving a person rat poison is giving a person rat poison. That person who takes vitamin D supplements in literally turning into a statue from taking it. I am allowed my opinion as you are allowed yours.

Furthermore for you to use the phrase “Ray Peat Diet” has seemed a red flag to me from the beginning. Perceive/Think/Act also applies to the foods you choose to eat and Ray’s diet was an object of experimentation for him over the course of his life and career. He gave us information about chemistry and biology to raise our awareness of how different substances, food, hormones, etc. interact with our cells and organs. And of course he had certain ideas about diet but I don’t believe he presented them as a prescription from my reading of his articles, interviews, etc., but rather more as knobs we can turn when we intend to influence our health for the better

Yes, and he missed a big part of the picture which is coming clear now. His work does not stop, we carry it on and make it better.

 

[vocedilegno]

Ray Peat immensely helped me too in the beginning. I had chronic fatigue syndrome and felt like I was dying. With his work I immediately pulled out of it. However, me and many other people have since figured out that high metabolism will only get a person so far until the toxins overwhelm.
Giving a person rat poison is giving a person rat poison. That person who takes vitamin D supplements in literally turning into a statue from taking it. I am allowed my opinion as you are allowed yours.

Yes, and he missed a big part of the picture which is coming clear now. His work does not stop, we carry it on and make it better.

Fair enough

 

[InChristAlone]

He said he had experimented with a wheat-germ-only diet because he believed at the time that wheat germ was a perfect and complete nutritional source, and that when he lost several teeth from doing this he realized that it was because of the phosphate imbalance.

I remember the story as well, but I forgot that piece! A wheat-germ-ONLY diet??? Haha Only Ray would do that lol. Yeah that could explain losing teeth rapidly. But not necessarily that we need tons of calcium, just that if you consume something that has loads of phytates you are essentially binding the minerals up. He thought we needed to be careful of all grains due to this experiment and fashioned a diet that had higher calcium than phosphorus. It didn't seem to prevent all tooth decay though because our teeth can also be destroyed by acids.

 

[Jennifer]

This account may have been something he said in an interview and it might take a long time to find. If anyone knows the reference please share here.

I’m not sure if he went into more detail about his experiment, but he talked briefly about wheat germ and its effects on his teeth in this interview:


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HPrIPVAD6dI&t=47m43s

 

[Jennifer]

In this interview with Patrick, Ray talks about how he went several months on a low, almost milk-free diet and its negative effect on his teeth:

bioenergetic search

Transcript search engine

www.bioenergetic.life

 

[InChristAlone]

I've been diagnosed with both autism and ADHD, and am unmedicated. I know exactly the kind of behavior you're talking about, and I'm always checking in with myself to see if I'm going too hard on something. (And I just realized I've been doing it with this vitamin A business.) But the difference is, when I tried eating a lot of white sugar and drinking Coke, and I realized it wasn't working, I just stopped. I didn't throw the baby out with the bathwater. I didn't go looking for another guru to tell me how dumb that was, and how wrong Ray was. Because I could still hear the ring of truth in his holistic conception of diet, energy, and health.

I do accept that some people need hand-holding, which is why I would never tell anyone not to do these elimination diets. Because it can and does work. Just like I would never tell anyone that their religion is dumb. I'm religious myself, though not evangelical. I'm just not convinced that all these connect-the-dots theories are the reason it works. If it works, it works. Nothing wrong with hand-holding, but there is something wrong with creating a boogeyman out of someone who didn't do that.

Yeah I've learned I have to check in with myself too. We must if we are going to experiment. But some things aren't readily apparent. For someone really toxic they could be consuming gobs and gobs of something and not even realize it's slowly poisoning them! Our body is pretty resilient in tucking away things, particularly fat soluble ones. I'm also astonished how people can literally take poisons and not realize they destroyed their liver until it was too late. That is going on in India with Ayurvedic medicines. A failing liver is a silent killer, it holds on for dear life until it can't anymore. That's why this new information on #toxicbiletheory is important. There are things we need to be on the look out for that indicate your liver is suffering. I personally love connecting dots! I loved that show 'House' He was a good detective on what was killing someone.

 

[Dolomite]

Over the years I’ve heard and read Ray recommend muscle meat such as oxtail and vegetables such as carrots, mushrooms, bamboo shoots, turnips and kale broth, and this is what he wrote me in an email exchange back in February of 2015:

“I recommend a diet including milk, eggs, cheese, orange juice and some other fruits, sea food, certain meats (emphasizing gelatinous things), and occasionally liver. I usually recommend some butter, coconut oil, and some occasional olive oil (for example with a carrot salad). I think any active adult should get at least 100 grams of protein per day.”

Thank you for responding with Ray Peat diet recommendations. I don't think he thought the oxtail meat was necessarily good but he liked the gelatin broth it would make. His recommendations do not include starch of any kind. And he said to eat oysters once a week or less.

I think it is ironic that people like @Pete Rey and @ballomar complain that Charlie is pointing out some problems with following Ray Peat's recommendations but yet they don't even follow them. I was told I might have "overdone" Ray Peat's recommendations and that is why it didn't work. From what I read, very few people actually follow Ray Peat's recommendations. I think you, Jennifer, do so better than many and that is great.