Jennifer
Member
You’re welcome. :) My macro ratio while fruit-based was 80–85% carbs, 5–10% protein and 5–10% fat and now I average 40% carbs, 30% protein and 30% fat.
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Anti-Peat Curious: What was Peat wrong about, in your view?
- Thread starter chrstn4o
- Start date
You’re welcome. :) My macro ratio while fruit-based was 80–85% carbs, 5–10% protein and 5–10% fat and now I average 40% carbs, 30% protein and 30% fat.
update : i have stopped most supplements for a few weeks, cause i had GERD like symptoms with gut pain (probably gastritis or colitis, not sure). i think it's caused by high histamine.
I started to take thiamin HCl again. But i take only 250mg per day this time (instead of 1500mg per day).
i take with food instead of 30 minutes after meal
i take it with DAO enzyme, B2 r5p 80mg, and a low dose b complex.
i don't take it with magnesium this time unfortunately, only magnesium from food, because i suspect magnesium is causing GERD by loosening the sphincter muscle, and also causing anal fissure and general colon irritant.
hoping this dose will work better on longer term, cause it really helped my mood when i took thiamin last month (and the mood mostly stayed good when i stopped taking it, meaning it's really a deficiency problem).
Two days ago, when i took the 250mg of thiamine HCl for the first time this round, i had high histamine symptoms like skin redness, sneezing, etc lasted for about 12h or 24h. i had no stomach symptoms yet.
update : i was not able to pursue with thiamin, i stopped after 3 or 4 days, cause i experienced a very unpleasant solanine poisoning.
i actually cooked my potatoes with skin, cause they were so small, ate some of the water, and that's why i felt bad, but the severity of feeling bad was because i was taking thiamin high dose with it.
also some of the symptoms like itchy skin, were not new, they got worse, also feeling very weak, but this made me think i was already too high acethylcholine prior to the poisoning (since i already had this symptoms to a lesser degree prior).
so now i take 2mg copper, i think my long term zinc supplements without copper might have caused some kind of low copper, i was careful not to take much zinc but it does seem i have some kind of low copper right now.
that's why i stopped thiamine for now, and actually i took bcaa with thyrosine and that helped me feel much better, without anxiety this time (actually even reduced my anxiety i think).
so based only on me symptoms and how i react to supplements, i feel much better now. I'm still taking lower dose b complex (5mg thiamin), vitamin d&k2mk7, and now i feel much better and good sleep also this past few days.
i will try high dose thiamin later, after some days with copper, and see, cause the first high dose thiamin i took, did improved my energy a lot, so I'm not dismissing the benefits, just i need to be better prepared (good copper status).
also i don't have blood test, i use my symptoms as markers, and i can't eat copper rich foods (chocolate hard to digest and liver is vitamin A toxic).
some vitamin d with milk also seem to makes me feel good this days, similar to when i take bcaa with thyrosine.
i actually cooked my potatoes with skin, cause they were so small, ate some of the water, and that's why i felt bad, but the severity of feeling bad was because i was taking thiamin high dose with it.
also some of the symptoms like itchy skin, were not new, they got worse, also feeling very weak, but this made me think i was already too high acethylcholine prior to the poisoning (since i already had this symptoms to a lesser degree prior).
so now i take 2mg copper, i think my long term zinc supplements without copper might have caused some kind of low copper, i was careful not to take much zinc but it does seem i have some kind of low copper right now.
that's why i stopped thiamine for now, and actually i took bcaa with thyrosine and that helped me feel much better, without anxiety this time (actually even reduced my anxiety i think).
so based only on me symptoms and how i react to supplements, i feel much better now. I'm still taking lower dose b complex (5mg thiamin), vitamin d&k2mk7, and now i feel much better and good sleep also this past few days.
i will try high dose thiamin later, after some days with copper, and see, cause the first high dose thiamin i took, did improved my energy a lot, so I'm not dismissing the benefits, just i need to be better prepared (good copper status).
also i don't have blood test, i use my symptoms as markers, and i can't eat copper rich foods (chocolate hard to digest and liver is vitamin A toxic).
some vitamin d with milk also seem to makes me feel good this days, similar to when i take bcaa with thyrosine.
i just had an intuition about what's been going on in my life since i was student, reading my situation.
Actually, reading this articles about acetylcholine, histamine, dopamine, and putting together the way i felt then and during my life....
back then i had very poor nutrition but i took piracetam with caffeine high dose for months. it allowed me to do better as a student, at least for a few months.
but because my poor nutrition, very low calorie, i I've just found an article saying piracetam can increase dopamine also, but because of my poor nutrition i had a crash, with symptoms similar to what's described as high histamine, high serotonin, with high acethylcholine, in the Ray Peat style. also with symptoms like low dopamine finally, and peripheral nerve serious damage that was similar to MS or something but never got diagnosed (it went away after 1 year of rest and slightly better nutrition).
but didn't had any IBS pain, only sometimes constipation some days without it being anything that would bother me too much (no pain).
then, a few years later, i had my lead and mold poisoning, that triggered my gut pain, IBS with pain, cramps. it seems that, besides the usual toxicity of lead, caused me a low thiamine, and that caused low acethylcholine and low zinc !!
So, i was high histamine, high acethylcholine before, with all the classical Ray Peat symptoms, without the gut pain.
then i became low acetylcholine and still had difficulty clearing histamine in the gut, probably low B1 and low magnesium also caused low DAO activity or something.
So in concussion, low acetylcholine is indeed bad for the gut, causing pain, IBS-c etc, even GERD, etc. but only when unable to clear histamine.
so, high acethylcholine with high histamine is ok for gut health, but not ok if to much and serotonin is high.
but then, it's better to increase acetylcholine in order to increase histamine faster.
let me explain, if you have a meal, the small intestine produce DAO during digestion, and acetylcholine raises causing high histamine, causing good digestion then the DAO deactivate the histamine 1h after the meal or so.
but now let's suppose acethylcholine is not able to be high enaught, then, histamine will raise only to for exemple maybe let's say 50% of what's needed to digest the food. food will stay in the upper stomach and small intestine for 8h+ instead of 1h or 2h.
the DAO produced in the small intestine initially, after the meal, will be used before the end of digestion, because instead of 1h of 100% histamine, there's 8h of 50% histamine levels, meaning in total much more histamine produced over time.
then, at the end of the 8h, any supplemental histamine, produced in the colon, will stack and raise colon levels, triggering the IBS-c cramps, etc, because DAO deficiency, not because of genetic or low production, but because of low acetylcholine in the beginning and prolonged digestion causing depletion of the DAO that was produced, probably to normal levels.
hope my explanation in clear, the conclusion is, high acethylcholine is essential, is not causing problems, BECAUSE it triggered histamine in time during the process of digestion, avoiding complications of dyspepsia and finally IBS-c cramps.
when both are high, digestion is better, but the problem is more in the brain, because of high serotonin, low dopamine, and we know that low dopamine cause high prolactin and only then high histamine with high acetylcholine is problematic.
meaning, serotonin/prolactin/low dopamine/low GABA is the problem, not high acetylcholine or histamine.
focusing on those would be more important than lowering too much acethylcholine. lowering histamine on the contrary is fine as long as acethylcholine is at normal levels.
if course, acetylcholine should not be higher than normal, but maybe we should focus more on increasing the GABA/dopamine/or lower prolactin rather than decreasing acetylcholine too much.
from what i understand, is impossible to raise dopamine directly in a sustainable way, is more about factors that increase GABA and lower prolactin and serotonin, and then this will allow dopamine to raise naturally, without forcing it and cause yoyo.
true adaptogens (like coffee, etc) work more by increasing GABA sensitivity over time, allowing dopamine to normalise naturally. they don't lower acetylcholine over time, on the contrary.
but histamine is indeed better to keep in check, without lowering acethylcholine, this means methylation is important (it both creates choline and lowers histamine). magnesium is important (for DAO and for GABA).
i understand methionine is not good, but then, when Ray Peat is not recommending even B12 i think maybe there's something where we need to question or try to rethink the way that research about methylation is understood (but by Ray Peat and by general mainstream overmethylation/histopenia paradigm : i think both are confusing and not accurate).
what Ray Peat calls "high acetylcholine triggering high histamine" is actually not that, is should be requalified as "low dopamine is causing histamine problems witch then causes serotonin problems" ... so it's real but not the way it's understood here.
we need decent average acetylcholine levels in general (not too high, certainly not low).
Actually, reading this articles about acetylcholine, histamine, dopamine, and putting together the way i felt then and during my life....
back then i had very poor nutrition but i took piracetam with caffeine high dose for months. it allowed me to do better as a student, at least for a few months.
but because my poor nutrition, very low calorie, i I've just found an article saying piracetam can increase dopamine also, but because of my poor nutrition i had a crash, with symptoms similar to what's described as high histamine, high serotonin, with high acethylcholine, in the Ray Peat style. also with symptoms like low dopamine finally, and peripheral nerve serious damage that was similar to MS or something but never got diagnosed (it went away after 1 year of rest and slightly better nutrition).
but didn't had any IBS pain, only sometimes constipation some days without it being anything that would bother me too much (no pain).
then, a few years later, i had my lead and mold poisoning, that triggered my gut pain, IBS with pain, cramps. it seems that, besides the usual toxicity of lead, caused me a low thiamine, and that caused low acethylcholine and low zinc !!
So, i was high histamine, high acethylcholine before, with all the classical Ray Peat symptoms, without the gut pain.
then i became low acetylcholine and still had difficulty clearing histamine in the gut, probably low B1 and low magnesium also caused low DAO activity or something.
So in concussion, low acetylcholine is indeed bad for the gut, causing pain, IBS-c etc, even GERD, etc. but only when unable to clear histamine.
so, high acethylcholine with high histamine is ok for gut health, but not ok if to much and serotonin is high.
but then, it's better to increase acetylcholine in order to increase histamine faster.
let me explain, if you have a meal, the small intestine produce DAO during digestion, and acetylcholine raises causing high histamine, causing good digestion then the DAO deactivate the histamine 1h after the meal or so.
but now let's suppose acethylcholine is not able to be high enaught, then, histamine will raise only to for exemple maybe let's say 50% of what's needed to digest the food. food will stay in the upper stomach and small intestine for 8h+ instead of 1h or 2h.
the DAO produced in the small intestine initially, after the meal, will be used before the end of digestion, because instead of 1h of 100% histamine, there's 8h of 50% histamine levels, meaning in total much more histamine produced over time.
then, at the end of the 8h, any supplemental histamine, produced in the colon, will stack and raise colon levels, triggering the IBS-c cramps, etc, because DAO deficiency, not because of genetic or low production, but because of low acetylcholine in the beginning and prolonged digestion causing depletion of the DAO that was produced, probably to normal levels.
hope my explanation in clear, the conclusion is, high acethylcholine is essential, is not causing problems, BECAUSE it triggered histamine in time during the process of digestion, avoiding complications of dyspepsia and finally IBS-c cramps.
when both are high, digestion is better, but the problem is more in the brain, because of high serotonin, low dopamine, and we know that low dopamine cause high prolactin and only then high histamine with high acetylcholine is problematic.
meaning, serotonin/prolactin/low dopamine/low GABA is the problem, not high acetylcholine or histamine.
focusing on those would be more important than lowering too much acethylcholine. lowering histamine on the contrary is fine as long as acethylcholine is at normal levels.
if course, acetylcholine should not be higher than normal, but maybe we should focus more on increasing the GABA/dopamine/or lower prolactin rather than decreasing acetylcholine too much.
from what i understand, is impossible to raise dopamine directly in a sustainable way, is more about factors that increase GABA and lower prolactin and serotonin, and then this will allow dopamine to raise naturally, without forcing it and cause yoyo.
true adaptogens (like coffee, etc) work more by increasing GABA sensitivity over time, allowing dopamine to normalise naturally. they don't lower acetylcholine over time, on the contrary.
but histamine is indeed better to keep in check, without lowering acethylcholine, this means methylation is important (it both creates choline and lowers histamine). magnesium is important (for DAO and for GABA).
i understand methionine is not good, but then, when Ray Peat is not recommending even B12 i think maybe there's something where we need to question or try to rethink the way that research about methylation is understood (but by Ray Peat and by general mainstream overmethylation/histopenia paradigm : i think both are confusing and not accurate).
what Ray Peat calls "high acetylcholine triggering high histamine" is actually not that, is should be requalified as "low dopamine is causing histamine problems witch then causes serotonin problems" ... so it's real but not the way it's understood here.
we need decent average acetylcholine levels in general (not too high, certainly not low).
lvysaur
Member
- Joined
- Mar 15, 2014
- Messages
- 2,245
I think that Peat was "wrong" about sugar and pork. To some extent milk too. I feel better on much less sugar, and I feel best when I crave pork. Eating beef as a majority meat feels unnatural. I think sugar is completely unnecessary if fruits are ripe enough (even if you're only eating apples).
The biggest thing is that his work tends to focus more on medicine/science/downstream stuff, when the real problem is society and politics and management of human behavior (everything is downstream of this)
He also doesn't speak enough about fruit ripeness, soil health etc., these things satisfy health in a way similar to natural sunlight which haven't yet been quantified. These are nitpicks though, I'm sure he agrees with these things, just didn't focus on them. But it would have been really interesting to run some of these same studies, except instead of studying sugar intake we study the effects of ripe vs. unripe fruit etc
Basically, more focus on high-level stuff (whole foods, ripe foods, self-reported mood) instead of low-level studies (sucrose, fructose, this particular fatty acid). He wasn't really blatantly wrong about anything though
The biggest thing is that his work tends to focus more on medicine/science/downstream stuff, when the real problem is society and politics and management of human behavior (everything is downstream of this)
He also doesn't speak enough about fruit ripeness, soil health etc., these things satisfy health in a way similar to natural sunlight which haven't yet been quantified. These are nitpicks though, I'm sure he agrees with these things, just didn't focus on them. But it would have been really interesting to run some of these same studies, except instead of studying sugar intake we study the effects of ripe vs. unripe fruit etc
Basically, more focus on high-level stuff (whole foods, ripe foods, self-reported mood) instead of low-level studies (sucrose, fructose, this particular fatty acid). He wasn't really blatantly wrong about anything though
Last edited:
Apple
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- Apr 15, 2015
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what about coffee or tea ? you drink them without sugar or to not drink them at all ?
Peatress
Member
“Refined granulated sugar is extremely pure, but it lacks all of the essential nutrients, so it should be considered as a temporary therapeutic material, or as an occasional substitute when good fruit isn't available, or when available honey is allergenic.” Ray Peat
“Well, fruits, if you know that they're grown in a safe, unchemically treated environment, it's fairly hard to find really ripe fruit in the stores, but if you can find ripe oranges or tangerines, those are very safe for juicing, for example.” Ray Peat
More examples of Dr. Peat talking about the importance of ripe fruit
“Well, fruits, if you know that they're grown in a safe, unchemically treated environment, it's fairly hard to find really ripe fruit in the stores, but if you can find ripe oranges or tangerines, those are very safe for juicing, for example.” Ray Peat
More examples of Dr. Peat talking about the importance of ripe fruit
Apple
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How many spoons of sugar did ray peat put into his frequent coffee?“Refined granulated sugar is extremely pure, but it lacks all of the essential nutrients, so it should be considered as a temporary therapeutic material, or as an occasional substitute when good fruit isn't available, or when available honey is allergenic.” Ray Peat
“Well, fruits, if you know that they're grown in a safe, unchemically treated environment, it's fairly hard to find really ripe fruit in the stores, but if you can find ripe oranges or tangerines, those are very safe for juicing, for example.” Ray Peat
More examples of Dr. Peat talking about the importance of ripe fruit
lvysaur
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- Mar 15, 2014
- Messages
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I don't drink them
I eat a tiny bit of added sugar in the form of cookies, but these are relatively unsweet
What kind of cookie are you eating? Cookies seem to be something of a neccessity in our household, especially for breakfast.
Candeias
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root canals to some extent
Peatress
Member
I don’t know that. He used cream in his coffee but I don’t know if he added sugar to it – he drank a lot of orange juice, it's possible he didn't need to add sugar to his coffee.
Rinse & rePeat
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Nothing so far.
Peatress
Member
Apple
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I think it is impossible that Ray Peat didn't put any sugar into his coffee... it was sort of a reason of his fame and his moto - Sugar is good for you !!! (in any form)
Peatress
Member
He emphasised fruit sugars over refined sugars so I don’t think it’s impossible that he did not add it to his coffee. In that interview he says he starts his day with orange juice, then, he goes on to talk about coffee with cream. No mention of refined sugar. Yes, he did say sugar is good for you but he also said if you have the choice of ripe fruits those are preferable.
Apple
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no no no... Can anyone imagine Ray Peat drinking coffee without sugar? I can't , whatever you think . RayPeat also endorsed drinking Cola which has high amount of sugar (almost 10 spoons per can) ...which is nothing compared to puting 1-2 spoons of white sugar into his cup, even just for a taste of sweet coffee.
1-2 spoons of white sugar (in coffee) is a ridiculously small amount of sugar compared to sugar content of fruits. Ray Peat knew that and ridiculed the idea that sugar is bad.
Yes, He emphasised fruit sugars over refined sugars...but a mixture of coffee+sugar is not the same as eating plain white sugar. Coffee is full of antioxidants/minerals/vitamins so adding sugar makes the beverage complete . Sugar keeps stress hormones low which can go high from cafeine.
Last edited:
David PS
Member
I started using sugar in my morning coffee after coming to the forum. the idea for me was to get some sugar into my system to lower the morning stress from from not eating over night. I was surprised that the interview below opened with the following:
View: https://soundcloud.com/oneradionetwork/dr-ray-peat-phd-may-21-2019
Rinse & rePeat
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Apple
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He omitted to say "and sugar" since it was needless to say and just silly.
of course, coffee without sugar is possible ... but it has to be after meal then , no-brainer
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