Dietary Regimens & the new Ray Peat age

[Derek]

post 111869 Does 'fast oxidiser' in your frame correspond to getting most of one's energy by oxidising sugars (as opposed to fats or glycolysis)?

Yes, exactly.

 

[milk_lover]

post 111869

post 111699 Bread rocks! Funny how you say you don't make it frequently because you can't resist overeating it, maybe your body's trying to tell you something? If you don't tolerate it well that's probably because you don't eat it frequently. You eat it occasionally so your body doesn't have a chance to adjust to it. I was like that when I started eating wheat again. I would eat it occasionally and I seemed to have issues, but I craved it so bad I couldn't stay away completely. I then decided to make homemade white bread and eat it everyday for 2 weeks; by the end of that time I was tolerating it way better than I did at the start!

Wouldn't surprise me if it is general low metabolism that is messing with my handling of milk. Does 'fast oxidiser' in your frame correspond to getting most of one's energy by oxidising sugars (as opposed to fats or glycolysis)?

I don't think it was lack of eating bread that messed with my handing of that. Many years ago a naturopath suggested I try a week or two gluten-free, since he'd seen studies on correlation between coeliac and my key issue. Didn't help with that. But I realised after a few days that my transit had normalised, after many years of mild chronic diarrhea that I'd gotten used to and didn't realise was abnormal.

post 111573 I seldom bake it because I have trouble resisting over-eating it, and I don't curently trust my tastes on this one.

Why don't you trust your tastes on bread? Many food and health/gym fanatics believe if you are not enjoying it, you're doing it right and I don't believe this is healthy. They force themselves to exercise and eat a lot of salads that they don't enjoy.

I trust my taste enough to try it now and then, but then I notice how it makes me feel - short term good, medium term worse. I love milk too, and cheese, and yogurt, but they don't seem to love me either, at least for now. I'm wondering whether the same may apply to chocolate.
I don't force my self to eat anything I don't enjoy, though, and there are other things to eat that I also like, at least at home where I have some control.

I don't claim I am a "fast oxidizer" but I can now drink milk with no apparent trouble, well at least the brands I tried recently. I am a tall guy 6.1 feet and I think my body craves milk to maintain the bones or something. There is an internal signal that forces me to seek milk and when I drink it (all types; cow, goat, camel's you name it) every sip tastes better than the previous one and I can't stop drinking it. Even before I knew Peat, and before my one-year paleo experience, my family calls me "the milk guy." Then I read Peat work and his work helped me understand my romantic relationship with milk. For every small child in our family is urged by his parents to drink milk so he can be tall like [insert my name] . In the beginning of my Peating time, I couldn't handle milk. It was so confusing because I had always drunk milk all my life.. So I knew I had to keep going until I get my tolerance back and Peat was right, it gets better with time.
Yogurt I am naturally not inclined to eat it, the texture and taste do not suit my taste buds at all, which is great in Peat world because it contains bacteria and lactic acid.. So I decided to follow my intuition and craving, it usually leads to good things. I trust my body enough.

 

[Derek]

post 111920

post 111869

post 111699 Bread rocks! Funny how you say you don't make it frequently because you can't resist overeating it, maybe your body's trying to tell you something? If you don't tolerate it well that's probably because you don't eat it frequently. You eat it occasionally so your body doesn't have a chance to adjust to it. I was like that when I started eating wheat again. I would eat it occasionally and I seemed to have issues, but I craved it so bad I couldn't stay away completely. I then decided to make homemade white bread and eat it everyday for 2 weeks; by the end of that time I was tolerating it way better than I did at the start!

Wouldn't surprise me if it is general low metabolism that is messing with my handling of milk. Does 'fast oxidiser' in your frame correspond to getting most of one's energy by oxidising sugars (as opposed to fats or glycolysis)?

I don't think it was lack of eating bread that messed with my handing of that. Many years ago a naturopath suggested I try a week or two gluten-free, since he'd seen studies on correlation between coeliac and my key issue. Didn't help with that. But I realised after a few days that my transit had normalised, after many years of mild chronic diarrhea that I'd gotten used to and didn't realise was abnormal.

post 111573 I seldom bake it because I have trouble resisting over-eating it, and I don't curently trust my tastes on this one.

Why don't you trust your tastes on bread? Many food and health/gym fanatics believe if you are not enjoying it, you're doing it right and I don't believe this is healthy. They force themselves to exercise and eat a lot of salads that they don't enjoy.

I trust my taste enough to try it now and then, but then I notice how it makes me feel - short term good, medium term worse. I love milk too, and cheese, and yogurt, but they don't seem to love me either, at least for now. I'm wondering whether the same may apply to chocolate.
I don't force my self to eat anything I don't enjoy, though, and there are other things to eat that I also like, at least at home where I have some control.

I don't claim I am a "fast oxidizer" but I can now drink milk with no apparent trouble, well at least the brands I tried recently. I am a tall guy 6.1 feet and I think my body craves milk to maintain the bones or something. There is an internal signal that forces me to seek milk and when I drink it (all types; cow, goat, camel's you name it) every sip tastes better than the previous one and I can't stop drinking it. Even before I knew Peat, and before my one-year paleo experience, my family calls me "the milk guy." Then I read Peat work and his work helped me understand my romantic relationship with milk. For every small child in our family is urged by his parents to drink milk so he can be tall like [insert my name] . In the beginning of my Peating time, I couldn't handle milk. It was so confusing because I had always drunk milk all my life.. So I knew I had to keep going until I get my tolerance back and Peat was right, it gets better with time.
Yogurt I am naturally not inclined to eat it, the texture and taste do not suit my taste buds at all, which is great in Peat world because it contains bacteria and lactic acid.. So I decided to follow my intuition and craving, it usually leads to good things. I trust my body enough.

You may not naturally be a fast oxidizer, but you consume products such as coffee, caffeine & aspirin; which will push you into a temporary state of fast oxidation. This will allow you to handle the metabolic suppression caused by milk, so long as you continue to consume these thyroid surrogates. Stop consuming thyroid, caffeine/aspirin, coffee and try drinking milk without them. Unless you are a true fast oxidizer (like a baby or young child) you will start having issues with the milk.

But again it's all about balance and it seems that you found what works well for you. But for some people, pushing themselves into this unnatural state of oxidation is very problematic and can cause health issues.

 

[milk_lover]

post 111924 You may not naturally be a fast oxidizer, but you consume products such as coffee, caffeine & aspirin; which will push you into a temporary state of fast oxidation. This will allow you to handle the metabolic suppression caused by milk, so long as you continue to consume these thyroid surrogates. Stop consuming thyroid, caffeine/aspirin, coffee and try drinking milk without them. Unless you are a true fast oxidizer (like a baby or young child) you will start having issues with the milk.

But again it's all about balance and it seems that you found what works well for you. But for some people, pushing themselves into this unnatural state of oxidation is very problematic and can cause health issues.

You bring good points. Couple of questions:

Why do you think milk suppresses metabolism? My heart beats faster and I get warm. Maybe it beats faster because it's cold and I feel warm, because I will be always warmer than a cold cup of milk?

Are you a wizard? How did you know I consume coffee and aspirin?

Peat and many people here think it's good to take thyroid surrogates to push your metabolism up (that's the goal of Peat style of living--most of his food and supplement recommendations lead to higher metabolism) as long as you meet your energy requirements.. You said "unatural state of oxidation" but those recommendations with time probably help change the state from unatural to natural because they help remove the blocks on metabolism.

Trust me, I haven't found what works the best for me yet! I learn a lot from you guys and I am still in the process of bettering myself.

 

[Derek]

post 111932

post 111924 You may not naturally be a fast oxidizer, but you consume products such as coffee, caffeine & aspirin; which will push you into a temporary state of fast oxidation. This will allow you to handle the metabolic suppression caused by milk, so long as you continue to consume these thyroid surrogates. Stop consuming thyroid, caffeine/aspirin, coffee and try drinking milk without them. Unless you are a true fast oxidizer (like a baby or young child) you will start having issues with the milk.

But again it's all about balance and it seems that you found what works well for you. But for some people, pushing themselves into this unnatural state of oxidation is very problematic and can cause health issues.

You bring good points. Couple of questions:

Why do you think milk suppresses metabolism? My heart beats faster and I get warm. Maybe it beats faster because it's cold and I feel warm, because I will be always warmer than a cold cup of milk?

Are you a wizard? How did you know I consume coffee and aspirin?

Peat and many people here think it's good to take thyroid surrogates to push your metabolism up (that's the goal of Peat style of living--most of his food and supplement recommendations lead to higher metabolism) as long as you meet your energy requirements.. You said "unatural state of oxidation" but those recommendations with time probably help change the state from unatural to natural because they help remove the blocks on metabolism.

Trust me, I haven't found what works the best for me yet! I learn a lot from you guys and I am still in the process of bettering myself.

Look at some of my posts. I have already discussed how milk can suppress metabolism.

Yes, many people here think it's good to push metabolism up. But of you look at a lot of posts here, this way of thinking doesn't seem to be working for a lot of people. And then they are just told they aren't doing it right, or that they need another/different drug or supplement.

Your body suppressed your metabolism for a purpose. Pushing it into fast oxidation, without knowing the cause of the suppression in the first place, is unnatural to me. More sound approach would be removing the cause of the suppression, metabolism goes up naturally.

 

[milk_lover]

post 111934 Your body suppressed your metabolism for a purpose. Pushing it into fast oxidation, without knowing the cause of the suppression in the first place, is unnatural to me.

How can we know the cause of the suppressions? Does experimentation help?

 

[Derek]

post 111937

post 111934 Your body suppressed your metabolism for a purpose. Pushing it into fast oxidation, without knowing the cause of the suppression in the first place, is unnatural to me.

How can we know the cause of the suppressions? Does experimentation help?

The causes could be emotional/psychological, environmental, dietary, etc...

 

[milk_lover]

post 111937

post 111934 Your body suppressed your metabolism for a purpose. Pushing it into fast oxidation, without knowing the cause of the suppression in the first place, is unnatural to me.

How can we know the cause of the suppressions? Does experimentation help?

The causes could be emotional/psychological, environmental, dietary, etc...

But would raising our metabolism naturally or unnaturally (coffee and aspirin, I believe, come from natural plants) while tackling those causes make the process easier? They go hand in hand, like they compliment each other or something. For example, you feel beat down, you're stressed and you have negative thoughts (an emotional cause), if you don't do anything, this will keep going worse (leading to further suppression of metabolism), but if you go eat something sweet or salty or drink a sugary cold drink and then a shot of espresso, you bounce back to life and feel energy to change probably why you're beat down and stressed in the first place and remove the root cause. And your metabolism comes online again. I am rambling here but I hope you get what I am saying.

 

[Derek]

I suppose if the caffeine/aspirin give you the energy and focus to tackle the real causes that could be okay. However, your body suppresses metabolism for a reason, usually to protect you. Forcing it into fast oxidation in this case can be damaging but in other cases it could be benign, depending on the nature of the suppression. Milk is a good example. Milk suppresses and the surrogates are stimulatory. You can find a balance here even with the suppression and be okay. My point is that if you removed the cause of the suppression (Milk) then you wouldn't need the surrogates.

 

[milk_lover]

post 111956 I suppose if the caffeine/aspirin give you the energy and focus to tackle the real causes that could be okay. However, your body suppresses metabolism for a reason, usually to protect you. Forcing it into fast oxidation in this case can be damaging but in other cases it could be benign, depending on the nature of the suppression. Milk is a good example. Milk suppresses and the surrogates are stimulatory. You can find a balance here even with the suppression and be okay. My point is that if you removed the cause of the suppression (Milk) then you wouldn't need the surrogates.

Your reasoning behind milk suppressing metabolism is "Milk and fruit can increase serotonin." The sentence before it is "Any food can increase serotonin." Ok so we starve ourselves if any food can cause serotonin? Milk is like any food, it can be tolerated or not tolerated depending on many factors. I don't believe in the statement that "milk suppresses." Too general without context.

 

[Derek]

post 111963

post 111956 I suppose if the caffeine/aspirin give you the energy and focus to tackle the real causes that could be okay. However, your body suppresses metabolism for a reason, usually to protect you. Forcing it into fast oxidation in this case can be damaging but in other cases it could be benign, depending on the nature of the suppression. Milk is a good example. Milk suppresses and the surrogates are stimulatory. You can find a balance here even with the suppression and be okay. My point is that if you removed the cause of the suppression (Milk) then you wouldn't need the surrogates.

Your reasoning behind milk suppressing metabolism is "Milk and fruit can increase serotonin." The sentence before it is "Any food can increase serotonin." Ok so we starve ourselves if any food can cause serotonin? Milk is like any food, it can be tolerated or not tolerated depending on many factors. I don't believe in the statement that "milk suppresses." Too general without context.

Milk raises serotonin from it's high tryptophan, fruit raises serotonin from gut irritation. The fiber and acids in fruit are very harsh & irritating. Serotonin is only one way milk can suppress metabolism. Excess calcium is another way. Too much liquid is another. Prolactin/Estrogen is another. You just posted one quote I made about serotonin and milk, I talked about other reasons of suppression elsewhere.

Any food can cause an excess of serotonin if it causes gut irritation or is too high in tryptophan/and suppressive to oxidative metabolism. So the solution is focus on foods that are very easy to digest and also low in tryptophan. And this certainly doesn't include milk/fruit. And if the food is high in tryptophan you better have very good metabolism or take surrogates, otherwise it will suppress metabolism via serotonin.

 

[milk_lover]

But milk in a peat-oriented diet has a very strong positive influence on metabolism. Peat always emphasizes on the Ca/P ratio and how it is important to metabolism. Milk is a very handy legitimate source to raise that ratio. I remember Haidut posted a study about calcium and metabolism, you need high amounts of calcium probably more than 2000mg to get that effect because calcium is involved in the metabolism pathway (if someone can locate the post, that would be helpful). Orange juice,meat, espresso and good thyroid helps with magnesium which will help deal with excess calcium. Fat soluble vitamins like K2, found naturally in liver, help with excess calcium if you have issues with it.

Peat recommends salt, that would help with the too much liquid issue. Remember I am talking about milk in a peat-oriented diet.

About tryptophan from this post -->https://www.raypeatforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=6015:
"Ray Peat says that high tryptophan content of milk should not be problematic, due to the high calcium content. He says that it is the calcium to phosphate ratio is the major contributor in whether the tryptophan in the milk will be converted into excess serotonin or the B Vitamin, Niacin." Also in the same post, you can find studies that show BCAA and casein, found naturally in milk, can reduce tryptophan absorption. If this does not convince you, then I hope the following will convince you. If milk is consumed in a peat-oriented diet (sorry to use it many times) with little muscle meat consumption and more of gelatin, then tryptophan shouldn't be a big problem to start with.

Serotonin issues from milk gut irritation could be from added vitamins or types of bacteria. Trying different brands should help find the best milk that suit your body with less irritation.

 

[milk_lover]

post 111965 Prolactin/Estrogen is another.

Low-fat milk has little estrogen. Also milk has progesterone which can oppose estrogen.

 

[Giraffe]

post 111973 I remember Haidut posted a study about calcium and metabolism, you need high amounts of calcium probably more than 2000mg to get that effect because calcium is involved in the metabolism pathway (if someone can locate the post, that would be helpful)

Do you mean this topic? Why Ray recommends eating lots of calcium

 

[Derek]

post 111973 But milk in a peat-oriented diet has a very strong positive influence on metabolism. Peat always emphasizes on the Ca/P ratio and how it is important to metabolism. Milk is a very handy legitimate source to raise that ratio. I remember Haidut posted a study about calcium and metabolism, you need high amounts of calcium probably more than 2000mg to get that effect because calcium is involved in the metabolism pathway (if someone can locate the post, that would be helpful). Orange juice,meat, espresso and good thyroid helps with magnesium which will help deal with excess calcium. Fat soluble vitamins like K2, found naturally in liver, help with excess calcium if you have issues with it.

Peat recommends salt, that would help with the too much liquid issue. Remember I am talking about milk in a peat-oriented diet.

About tryptophan from this post -->https://www.raypeatforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=6015:
"Ray Peat says that high tryptophan content of milk should not be problematic, due to the high calcium content. He says that it is the calcium to phosphate ratio is the major contributor in whether the tryptophan in the milk will be converted into excess serotonin or the B Vitamin, Niacin." Also in the same post, you can find studies that show BCAA and casein, found naturally in milk, can reduce tryptophan absorption. If this does not convince you, then I hope the following will convince you. If milk is consumed in a peat-oriented diet (sorry to use it many times) with little muscle meat consumption and more of gelatin, then tryptophan shouldn't be a big problem to start with.

Serotonin issues from milk gut irritation could be from added vitamins or types of bacteria. Trying different brands should help find the best milk that suit your body with less irritation.

No point in arguing over this, we just have a difference of opinion. But if milk is so great when combined with a Peat inspired diet; I wonder why the majority of people here are having a hard time consuming it. I didn't even look at the study Haidut posted but I can bet the form of calcium used was carbonate, as this is the type used in most studies. The carbonate is what helps metabolism not the calcium. The calcium in milk is calcium phosphate not carbonate.

 

[Derek]

post 111975

post 111965 Prolactin/Estrogen is another.

Low-fat milk has little estrogen. Also milk has progesterone which can oppose estrogen.

Skim milk can actually have more estrogen than whole fat, estrogen can be water soluble. And if you're recommending skim milk for the lowered estrogen content; it doesn't contain any progesterone because that's in the cream.

Skim milk is lowest in free estrogen but highest in conjugated estrogen, primarily 2-hydroxyestrone.

 

[Nicholas]

with milk, i've gotten to the point where i only enjoy drinking it if it has a little coffee and sugar in it. now i know why.. : )

i don't drink a ton of it, but i usually crave it with a meal with animal protein....mid-day....maybe evening....but never morning. it's not someting i consistently crave....but the times i've tried to completely get rid of it, i do have strong ravings for it. my whole life until 3 yrs. ago i would drink it sporadically....like maybe with coffee or a once in a blue moon bowl of cereal.....i had some milk trauma when i was younger watching a little kid scooping up soggy animal crackers in a puddle of milk and eating them....for some reason it stuck with me and always made me mildly gag at the thought of milk. weirdly, when i discovered Peat and started drinking raw milk it felt like a new discovery....i don't exactly know why, but i found it mildly comforting...and still do....cravings for it seem to go up when i've been under some kind of stress.

 

[milk_lover]

post 111973 I remember Haidut posted a study about calcium and metabolism, you need high amounts of calcium probably more than 2000mg to get that effect because calcium is involved in the metabolism pathway (if someone can locate the post, that would be helpful)

Do you mean this topic? Why Ray recommends eating lots of calcium

Thanks Giraffe, yeah that's the topic I was referring to.

 

[milk_lover]

post 111992

post 111975

post 111965 Prolactin/Estrogen is another.

Low-fat milk has little estrogen. Also milk has progesterone which can oppose estrogen.

Skim milk can actually have more estrogen than whole fat, estrogen can be water soluble. And if you're recommending skim milk for the lowered estrogen content; it doesn't contain any progesterone because that's in the cream.

Skim milk is lowest in free estrogen but highest in conjugated estrogen, primarily 2-hydroxyestrone.

Derek I remember Ray Peat said you will have to drink many many gallons of milk daily to have estrogen similar to estrogen found in birth control. So I wouldn't worry too much about estrogen in milk. If it's very concerning to some people, can you provide studies for the bold sentence and how conjugated estrogen and free estrogen affect the body? I'd like to know about those things if you have the time

 

[milk_lover]

post 111989 No point in arguing over this, we just have a difference of opinion. But if milk is so great when combined with a Peat inspired diet; I wonder why the majority of people here are having a hard time consuming it. I didn't even look at the study Haidut posted but I can bet the form of calcium used was carbonate, as this is the type used in most studies. The carbonate is what helps metabolism not the calcium. The calcium in milk is calcium phosphate not carbonate.

Not sure about the type used in the study, but read the following from haidut post:
"Calcium activates the enzyme pyruvate dehydrogenase (PDH), which takes the pyruvate produced by glycolysis, converts it to Acetyl-Co-A and thus starts the Krebs cycle. Calcium also seems to activate the other enzymes participating in the Krebs cycle." It does indicate it's the calcium not the carbonate.
People who have hard time consuming milk may still need to experiment more with milk until it works for them not give it up this easy. It will get better I am pretty sure as their bodies heal with time.