RP Is Anti-authoritarian But I'm Starting To View RP As An Authority And Losing My Critical Thinking

[Goobz]

Great point OP, and unfortunately this applies to any "follower" of a certain person. Following someone's ideas doesn't recruit an independent, scientific type of thinking. It recruits our social, group, religious thinking. Case in point - whenever someone here holds in higher esteem "what Ray said" over scientific studies. When it comes to science, Ray's words should only matter, so far as they point you to the scientific evidence he is citing.

I think Ray's approach is great in many ways, and he is right about a lot of things, and I've found him to be pretty wrong on other things. Of course, he's human. But he's far more knowledgeable than some of his "followers", many of whom have monetized his approach. I try to watch Danny Roddy and Georgi sometimes, and want to believe their more outrageous claims. But usually have to stop kidding myself and turn the video off, after about the 4th or 5th claim that is demonstrably untrue or reveals a rather basic lack of understanding.

I then remind myself that neither of them are scientists, and both make a direct profit from their guru status, via selling you supplements and advice. Though I'm sure they mean well, and their products and advice may well be good quality, it's just something to keep in mind, I think.

I remember reading a little meme, about how the popular view of scientific breakthroughs is that they come through genius, original ideas being spontaneously generated as "Eureka!" moments. But they do not. They come when a determined scientist runs an experiment and keeps getting results that don't fit his preconceptions, says "wait, what, no... that can't be right..."and keeps re running the experiment and checking.

In other words - IMO a good attitude to have when self experimenting or reading science is "wait, that can't be right".
The phrase "Ray Peat right again!" whilst being easier and feeling better, is unfortunately the opposite of this.

(Anyway, if all this is bothering me enough to make this post, I clearly need a bit of a break from forums / this forum. Brb)

 

[gaze]

Great point OP, and unfortunately this applies to any "follower" of a certain person. Following someone's ideas doesn't recruit an independent, scientific type of thinking. It recruits our social, group, religious thinking. Case in point - whenever someone here holds in higher esteem "what Ray said" over scientific studies. When it comes to science, Ray's words should only matter, so far as they point you to the scientific evidence he is citing.

I think Ray's approach is great in many ways, and he is right about a lot of things, and I've found him to be pretty wrong on other things. Of course, he's human. But he's far more knowledgeable than some of his "followers", many of whom have monetized his approach. I try to watch Danny Roddy and Georgi sometimes, and want to believe their more outrageous claims. But usually have to stop kidding myself and turn the video off, after about the 4th or 5th claim that is demonstrably untrue or reveals a rather basic lack of understanding.

I then remind myself that neither of them are scientists, and both make a direct profit from their guru status, via selling you supplements and advice. Though I'm sure they mean well, and their products and advice may well be good quality, it's just something to keep in mind, I think.

I remember reading a little meme, about how the popular view of scientific breakthroughs is that they come through genius, original ideas being spontaneously generated as "Eureka!" moments. But they do not. They come when a determined scientist runs an experiment and keeps getting results that don't fit his preconceptions, says "wait, what, no... that can't be right..."and keeps re running the experiment and checking.

In other words - IMO a good attitude to have when self experimenting or reading science is "wait, that can't be right".
The phrase "Ray Peat right again!" whilst being easier and feeling better, is unfortunately the opposite of this.

(Anyway, if all this is bothering me enough to make this post, I clearly need a bit of a break from forums / this forum. Brb)

yea, the same "science" that harvard uses to recommend pufa oil, says butter will kill you. the same science that the government used to recommend margarin for half a century. the same science that recommends SSRIS and 50 plus vaccines to children. the same science doctors use to justify parents feed soy formula to kids instead of breast milk. I think all of us have a strong distrust in "science" and for many we don't have the luxury to go through every study and examine the methods they used because so we lean on people who we deem as trustworthy, such as Ray. of course, this is counter intuitive to rays philosophy, which leads back to OPs thread

 

[yerrag]

Just think like Peat and it will serve you well. A good student can easily outdo his mentor. If you just follow and don't think, you lose.

There will be questions that Peat can't help you with. In space and in time. And in dimension as well.

But if you carry his spirit, then you won't find yourself lost.

 

[Lejeboca]

This is from the authority himself (taken from Ray Peat Interviews Revisited )

6. How do you balance encouraging a person’s curiosity with giving them the answers to their questions? Are you guided by any motivations such as enabling our independent conclusions?


In classes, where the subject matter is an area of knowledge, I look for aspects of it that I think will be unexpected by the students, so they will sense that they are going to change as they explore the new knowledge. When a particular person’s health is the issue, I have always tried to design a short course in the things that I think they need to know. It’s usually not what they expected and wanted, but if they can see points that illuminate their experience, they might be motivated to think about the implications. I think I try to make people aware of the importance of perceiving complexity and the incompleteness of tentative conclusions.

 

[MatheusPN]

I can share the same sentiment with LampOFred, mrChibbs, and Jamies33, everything Peat and Haidut said literally, benefited me so it's harder for me to think critically about their principles or advice diet-wise. I don't even have to perceive, think, act; to simply work perfectly.

The only controversy maybe is when I want more weight and muscle, dairy, when I want to feel better: fruit. It's difficult to stop both habits, it lasts for a while. Interestingly it happens naturally

LejeBoca post sums pretty well. Thanks ppl

 

[Gone Peating]

I can share the same sentiment with LampOFred, mrChibbs, and Jamies33, everything Peat and Haidut said literally, benefited me so it's harder for me to think critically about their principles or advice diet-wise. I don't even have to perceive, think, act; to simply work perfectly.

The only controversy maybe is when I want more weight and muscle, dairy, when I want to feel better: fruit. It's difficult to stop both habits, it lasts for a while. Interestingly it happens naturally

LejeBoca post sums pretty well. Thanks ppl

I think it’s also bc Haidut and Peat’s recommendations are off of their own experiences and the experiences of working with and treating other people.

Peat has also had viewpoints in the past, which, after realizing that they were wrong changed his viewpoints. So really even the whole milk and oj thing is not really a dogma just something that seems to work in general

 

[LUH 3417]

I think it’s also bc Haidut and Peat’s recommendations are off of their own experiences and the experiences of working with and treating other people.

Peat has also had viewpoints in the past, which, after realizing that they were wrong changed his viewpoints. So really even the whole milk and oj thing is not really a dogma just something that seems to work in general

Whole low fat milk*

 

[yerrag]

I can share the same sentiment with LampOFred, mrChibbs, and Jamies33, everything Peat and Haidut said literally, benefited me so it's harder for me to think critically about their principles or advice diet-wise. I don't even have to perceive, think, act; to simply work perfectly.

The only controversy maybe is when I want more weight and muscle, dairy, when I want to feel better: fruit. It's difficult to stop both habits, it lasts for a while. Interestingly it happens naturally

LejeBoca post sums pretty well. Thanks ppl

It has helped in aspects centering on metabolism. In a black and white prism. If you go into gray areas, you still need to perceive, think, and act.

There are areas not explained nor addressed by the lens of "everything is metabolic." While good metabolism is still very important, especially in these COVID days, it is mistakenly seen as the only aspect to consider. Viewed from this lens and approaching one's issues this way, one can end up frustrated.

One still needs to venture away into his own personal research, and read up on related health topics, in order to solve his unique n=1 issues. There would be times when one can feel he is on a lonely search, as the forum can't answer his queries. He had to rely on his own observation, with no one to confirm them, and he has to make sense of how they fit together, so as to make his own hypothesis, despite it not being fully 'evidence-based,' but logic-based, and from this, he would take a step into the unknown, in a way that if he makes a mistake, he could recover from and learn from. He would be taking small steps in a steady accumulation of understanding of his context, and it would help him overcome his disease. None of this requires Peat's guiding hand, as Ray Peat is far removed from it.

Ray Peat's approach is still there, and his research as well, and if he had read Peat's work, and appreciated his approach, he would know how to undertake this journey.

In this small world of personal discovery, one would hope Ray Peat is not the authority.

 

[mrchibbs]

I think Ray's approach is great in many ways, and he is right about a lot of things, and I've found him to be pretty wrong on other things. Of course, he's human. But he's far more knowledgeable than some of his "followers", many of whom have monetized his approach. I try to watch Danny Roddy and Georgi sometimes, and want to believe their more outrageous claims. But usually have to stop kidding myself and turn the video off, after about the 4th or 5th claim that is demonstrably untrue or reveals a rather basic lack of understanding.

I then remind myself that neither of them are scientists, and both make a direct profit from their guru status, via selling you supplements and advice. Though I'm sure they mean well, and their products and advice may well be good quality, it's just something to keep in mind, I think.

I find your comment more outrageous the 'outrageous claims' you say Danny and Georgi present. Give me actual examples. Nobody is perfect but there is almost nobody else doing a live chat of scientific news. If you're going to say that Georgi and Danny are wrong on that many things per livestreams you have to give examples otherwise you're just spouting off for some weird reason. To me, both of them are scientists, in the strict definition of the term.

 

[MatheusPN]

It has helped in aspects centering on metabolism. In a black and white prism. If you go into gray areas, you still need to perceive, think, and act.

There are areas not explained nor addressed by the lens of "everything is metabolic." While good metabolism is still very important, especially in these COVID days, it is mistakenly seen as the only aspect to consider. Viewed from this lens and approaching one's issues this way, one can end up frustrated.

One still needs to venture away into his own personal research, and read up on related health topics, in order to solve his unique n=1 issues. There would be times when one can feel he is on a lonely search, as the forum can't answer his queries. He had to rely on his own observation, with no one to confirm them, and he has to make sense of how they fit together, so as to make his own hypothesis, despite it not being fully 'evidence-based,' but logic-based, and from this, he would take a step into the unknown, in a way that if he makes a mistake, he could recover from and learn from. He would be taking small steps in a steady accumulation of understanding of his context, and it would help him overcome his disease. None of this requires Peat's guiding hand, as Ray Peat is far removed from it.

Ray Peat's approach is still there, and his research as well, and if he had read Peat's work, and appreciated his approach, he would know how to undertake this journey.

In this small world of personal discovery, one would hope Ray Peat is not the authority.

I agree or I presume I agree. Will add that I suppose a supreme metabolism can do extraordinary things like floating or regrowing more than small body parts. IDK the limits of metabolism, energy we can have, and how much we can focus, organize it to enhance, improve.

I can't see anything disassociated from metabolism connected to animals. What area do you think the "everything is metabolic" didn't explained nor addressed related to health?

I for one, have constantly for more than 2 years: 37,3 to 37,5 celsius throughout the day and still had and have some issues... Surely everyone can improve
add some things...

 

[yerrag]

What area do you think the "everything is metabolic" didn't explained nor addressed related to health?

The effect of bacteria colonization, not only in the guts, but also in the blood vessels, is one I'm quite familiar with, and dealing with.

I'm glad I have the metabolic health to put up with it. But it's put me in a suboptimal state, and if I just keep taking substances, it won't carry me over the top towards optimality. I will just be optimal in my suboptimality.

 

[MatheusPN]

The effect of bacteria colonization, not only in the guts, but also in the blood vessels, is one I'm quite familiar with, and dealing with.

I'm glad I have the metabolic health to put up with it. But it's put me in a suboptimal state, and if I just keep taking substances, it won't carry me over the top towards optimality. I will just be optimal in my suboptimality.

The acidity of the gut, a rapid transit time, ROS, NADH oxidase etc. All promising against pathogens/ bacteria are correlated with metabolism...
Or I didn't understand your point?

 

[yerrag]

The acidity of the gut, a rapid transit time, ROS, NADH oxidase etc. All promising against pathogens/ bacteria are correlated with metabolism...
Or I didn't understand your point?

Is that all? Is that going to solve everything?

Is what you're saying then "Everything is metabolic?"

 

[MatheusPN]

Is that all? Is that going to solve everything?

Is what you're saying then "Everything is metabolic?"

Metabolism is not everything, but it is an essential, integral aspect of the living system. A favorable metabolism nourishes our life.

 

[yerrag]

Metabolism is not everything, but it is an essential, integral aspect of the living system. A favorable metabolism nourishes our life.

So good to know we agree all this time.

 

[LeeLemonoil]

Is there any way one can buy or backorder past newsletters ?

 

[rob]

To the OP, I wouldn't treat anything anyone said in this field as gospel.

The health field is fascinating and I, like many here, am very passionate about it but, equally, I recognise its serious shortcomings. There's so much we don't understand and, simply from a research design/methodology standpoint, the field is historically riven with issues.

As with so much these days, all of this puts a huge onus on us to engage with subjects critically.

However, to do this we have to be willing to revise our thinking. And to do that we have to guard against becoming too heavily entrenched in a certain position as this just results in defensiveness. Unfortunately, this is all too common in health not just for political and commercial reasons but also for personal ones. Indeed, certainty is appealing and, especially for those dealing with issues, the thought of having finally found the solution that will solve everything can be a very tempting thing.

I must say this has what has impressed me at times with contributions on this forum. Not everyone is dogmatically following Ray's writings nor are they just agreeing with the loudest voice, there's evidently a critical process going on. A process that I feel Ray, as a scientist, has grounded himself in and one I'd like to think he would be proud to know his work was encouraging.

 

[Ableton]

How can peats idea be „right“ when every body chemistry is different?
More like „mostly true“, or „for most“
At the end of the day I would advice everyone to just use peat as an entry idea, and to pursue an end goal in which you are not using anything but lifestyle/food
Obviously peat is incredibly helpful for many, but taking anything as dogma is problematic
Things I do not agree with from experience:
Coffee (you want to avoid this if you run on stress already), veggies (if your gut tolerates I guess), taking thyroid in some cases, low fat always being desirable, probably more
I do also not agree with taking any medication on a daily basis if you are somewhat healthy
It’s good that this forum has an anti peat section

Indeed. At this point I'm pretty sure that if you want truth you should stay far away from universities.

humanities are teaching you exactly this, That science produces „facts“ that go down with their power networks. There is a difference between humanities and science and they have drifted apart accordingly. Postmodern philosophers have known this for decades: scientific facts are practically, socially, technically constructed and are never in a vacuum
Yet half of the braindead internet population blames the humanities for pointing this out because they have watched some jordan peterson videos and fear cultural marxism
Then they also believe in conspiracy theories and not in science and hang out on this forum.That is inconsequential af
Hating postmodern philosophy yet living post fact themselves
Whether institutionalilizing the humanities like that is a good idea is another question
But the humanities are obviously a nice introduction into critical thinking. Arguably, watching YouTube on latour and derrida does the same though.
At the end of the day you have to go down the rabbit hole yourself and have an open mind about the fact you could be wrong

 

[RWilly]

I don't think Ray has all the answers. If so, everyone here would super healthy after applying the same principles. I consider his point of view from a sterile gut point of view. But with microbes, everything changes, and we have to think about nutrition in a way that effects both our body and microbes, as microbes do control so much of our physiology.

 

[Ras]

It's difficult not to see Ray as an authority figure, because he speaks with great authority. He explains with confidence when, where, and why this thing is harmful (i.e., bad) and when, where, and why that thing is healthful (i.e., good). And his explanations can be convincing, because they tend to be a well-articulated show-and-tell of facts and reasonable thinking from what seems to be a sound mind.