Dietary Regimens & the new Ray Peat age

[Nicholas]

The further along i get in this process of self-awareness of body, nutrition, and environment the more i see consistently how everything has positives and negatives. I'm remembering some posts from the peatarian ancient Kasra regarding the dangers of getting locked down into regimens. The dangers, i perceive, are not just the mental enslavement to an inner authoritarian (i.e. anxiety) but also in how this blinds one from perception. Mysteriously, life happens and shakes things up and we learn from mistakes. We can read "perceive, think, act" all day long - but life experience is the only thing which teaches us how to do that.

Seems like a dramatic introduction to such a small bit of info. i perceived this morning. Resistant starch. While it certainly has been shown to have many positive attributes in various studies, one of the attributes that caught my attention today is its ability to suppress the appetite. To be honest, i don't understand the reasoning behind why the medical literature is generally contradictory about serotonin. I ate probably 2 cups of resistant starch a day for a year. It was kind of a habit (i.e. blind regimen after a while). I didn't notice really any negatives - in fact it seemed to help with blood sugar regulation....it allowed me to eat starches in a way which did not mess with my blood sugar.

Then i stopped eating them a week ago. I began introducing fresh starches instead. During this time, my appetite has significantly increased. I just have this gargantuan non-stressful and happy hunger. Over the year of eating resistant starch i didn't exactly notice a feeling of calorie restriction - but i did by the end feel this kind of disconnect between what i was eating and the energy it was giving me. I began to feel so hungry after eating a large meal.

This is not an anti-resistant starch post.....as many people eat bread. And bread is a resistant starch. Many people re-heat rice or eat pasta sometimes. Simply fine tuning awareness and giving a possible explanation for that appetite suppression: serotonin. Serotonin not because it's a kind of starch (we throw around serotonin very loosely around here with starches) but serotonin because resistant starch has been shown to increase the hormone Leptin. And Leptin is an important part of the serotonin pathway.

here's a study which i found after a five minute google search: http://www.jci.org/articles/view/5867

Are there regimens that you follow that inhibit your ability to perceive? Not that what you're eating is wrong, but that your body may be saying it needs something different.....that it needs to evolve to the next step? You can find a study that proves something good and bad about every single food - and in many cases, these are all valid. Being a Ray Peat fan and thinker is about being inside of this process of perceiving, thinking, and acting...and often times having no control over how you get there.

EDIT: perhaps the medicial studies seem "contradictory" regarding serotonin is because it is, as others have said, more complex than we realize....and it's not a blanket stressor.

 

[Nicholas]

more thoughts: a lot of people notice that starches give them a feeling of satiety. Could it be that this feeling is simply leptin/serotonin? and is serotonin a bad thing in this context? we tend to view serotonin from this mindset of: inflammation. but what if a serotonin response (that is not elevated and longterm) is not from digestive disturbance or inflammation, but from interactions with the food we eat with gut bacteria. does everyone have a serotonin response when they are full? even the starch-freers? thinking out loud...

 

[milk_lover]

Some people say white rice is benign and the least of the starches that give problems, but I find white rice in my case very problematic. My mood changes to the worse hinting probably at an increase of serotonin. The weird part is that when I eat fresh baked bread, my mood does not change or in fact sometimes my mood gets better. Something in the white fresh bread is meeting my body needs without me yet knowing. Also, white rice gives me bad constipation while white bread does not. I get water retention from white rice, but I don't get that from white bread hmmm.. If I am going to apply the "perceive, think, and act" concept in my case, I would certainly not touch white rice, and occasionally eat white bread. This might go against Ray Peat but we have to listen to our bodies. It's the ultimate judge.

 

[Derek]

post 111454 Some people say white rice is benign and the least of the starches that give problems, but I find white rice in my case very problematic. My mood changes to the worse hinting probably at an increase of serotonin. The weird part is that when I eat fresh baked bread, my mood does not change or in fact sometimes my mood gets better. Something in the white fresh bread is meeting my body needs without me yet knowing. Also, white rice gives me bad constipation while white bread does not. I get water retention from white rice, but I don't get that from white bread hmmm.. If I am going to apply the "perceive, think, and act" concept in my case, I would certainly not touch white rice, and occasionally eat white bread. This might go against Ray Peat but we have to listen to our bodies. It's the ultimate judge.

It really is just all about listening to one's body. I have eaten a whole loaf of white french bread in a single day and I felt great. I tried eating Masa harina a couple of times and felt terrible! Well one is "peat approved" and one isn't. The problem is there are people like me who tolerate white bread better than peat approved foods, but unlike me, they don't listen to their bodies. I have actually found that white flour is the easiest of all the starches for me to consume. Heck, white bread is even better for me than non starchy carbs; like fruit for instance.

 

[milk_lover]

post 111459

post 111454 Some people say white rice is benign and the least of the starches that give problems, but I find white rice in my case very problematic. My mood changes to the worse hinting probably at an increase of serotonin. The weird part is that when I eat fresh baked bread, my mood does not change or in fact sometimes my mood gets better. Something in the white fresh bread is meeting my body needs without me yet knowing. Also, white rice gives me bad constipation while white bread does not. I get water retention from white rice, but I don't get that from white bread hmmm.. If I am going to apply the "perceive, think, and act" concept in my case, I would certainly not touch white rice, and occasionally eat white bread. This might go against Ray Peat but we have to listen to our bodies. It's the ultimate judge.

It really is just all about listening to one's body. I have eaten a whole loaf of white french bread in a single day and I felt great. I tried eating Masa harina a couple of times and felt terrible! Well one is "peat approved" and one isn't. The problem is there are people like me who tolerate white bread better than peat approved foods, but unlike me, they don't listen to their bodies. I have actually found that white flour is the easiest of all the starches for me to consume. Heck, white bread is even better for me than non starchy carbs; like fruit for instance.

Not trying to promote eating white bread, but something in a hot white loaf appeals to me, it just tastes so damn good especially with hummus.

 

[Agent207]

One problem i see here sometimes, is that lots of things tends to be viewed as "black or white thing" regardless of anything else; I think this over-simplification is done to get the picture a lot more easy to understand, when the whole picture in this area seems to be far more complex. beans/bread = bad, serotonin = bad, sugar = good, melatonin = bad, "avoid like the plague under whatever circumstances"... etc.

After having read a part of R.Peat work, I think some extracts from their articles are very enlightening as a general guidance given the mainstream trends, but I often see here a tremendous oversimplification of it, ignoring details that define a variety of contexts. I know this way of thinking makes things more complicated but, the other one, classifying concepts as "go" or "no go", or judging if its Peat or "not Peat approved" no matter what, may lead to a poorer and more superficial uderstanding of what that "whole picture" is.

Example, Im pretty sure if Peat hadn't specifically mentioned eggs as food source, some here would actually reject them becouse its pufa content.

Fortunately, not always is this way.

 

[Derek]

post 111466

post 111459

post 111454 Some people say white rice is benign and the least of the starches that give problems, but I find white rice in my case very problematic. My mood changes to the worse hinting probably at an increase of serotonin. The weird part is that when I eat fresh baked bread, my mood does not change or in fact sometimes my mood gets better. Something in the white fresh bread is meeting my body needs without me yet knowing. Also, white rice gives me bad constipation while white bread does not. I get water retention from white rice, but I don't get that from white bread hmmm.. If I am going to apply the "perceive, think, and act" concept in my case, I would certainly not touch white rice, and occasionally eat white bread. This might go against Ray Peat but we have to listen to our bodies. It's the ultimate judge.

It really is just all about listening to one's body. I have eaten a whole loaf of white french bread in a single day and I felt great. I tried eating Masa harina a couple of times and felt terrible! Well one is "peat approved" and one isn't. The problem is there are people like me who tolerate white bread better than peat approved foods, but unlike me, they don't listen to their bodies. I have actually found that white flour is the easiest of all the starches for me to consume. Heck, white bread is even better for me than non starchy carbs; like fruit for instance.

Not trying to promote eating white bread, but something in a hot white loaf appeals to me, it just tastes so damn good especially with hummus.

There's nothing better than a hot fresh loaf of white bread with a little melted butter on it!

 

[Derek]

post 111469 One problem i see here sometimes here, is that lots of things tends to be viewed as "black or white thing" regardless of anything else; I thinks this over-simplification is done to get the picture a lot more easy to understand, when the whole picture in this area seems to be far more complex. beans/bread = bad, serotonin = bad, sugar = good, melatonin = bad, "avoid like the plague under whatever circumstances"... etc.

After having read a part of R.Pear work, I think some extracts from their articles are very enlightening as a general guidance given the mainstream trends, but I often see here a tremendous oversimplification of it, ignoring details that define a variety of contexts. I know this way of thinking makes things more complicated, but this way of classify concepts as "go" or "no go", or judging if its Peat or "not Peat approved" no matter what, may lead to a poorer and more superficial concept of what that "whole picture" is.

Fortunately, not always is this way.

Totally agree! People don't eat things they tolerate well because it's not approved, and they eat things that they can't tolerate at all because it is approved. Starch and milk are good examples. A lot of people avoid starch because they feel that it isn't "peat approved" and they may tolerate it very well; and they consume milk because it is "peat approved" but they feel horrible on it.

If you contacted him and told him you feel good on starch and horrible on dairy, would he tell you to avoid starch like the plague and keep eating dairy? I don't think he would.

Serotonin is way more complex than people here think. Any food can increase serotonin. Milk and fruit can increase serotonin. But people think just avoid starch and they will be fine on the serotonin front.

 

[Nicholas]

right, fruits do actually have attributes that can lead to serotonin in the same way starches have attributes that can lead to serotonin. the other thing, too, to emphasize is that it's not just the thinking of "everybody's different"....but also that our own individual bodies change over time. liver used to be a godsend for me. well, now it's not. something must have shifted....i retain less zinc, i'm getting too much copper from shrimp, i'm retaining vitamin A better.....the reasoning could go on. In this sense, cravings are not an enigmatic thing.

 

[Derek]

post 111479 right, fruits do actually have attributes that can lead to serotonin in the same way starches have attributes that can lead to serotonin. the other thing, too, to emphasize is that it's not just the thinking of "everybody's different"....but also that our own individual bodies change over time. liver used to be a godsend for me. well, now it's not. something must have shifted....i retain less zinc, i'm getting too much copper from shrimp, i'm retaining vitamin A better.....the reasoning could go on. In this sense, cravings are not an enigmatic thing.

When liver was helping you did you enjoy eating it? Did it taste good? I've noticed that in most cases the food tastes good when there is something of value in it that your body needs. Once you become saturated with said substance, then that particular food starts to lose it's appeal/taste.

 

[Nicholas]

post 111484

post 111479 right, fruits do actually have attributes that can lead to serotonin in the same way starches have attributes that can lead to serotonin. the other thing, too, to emphasize is that it's not just the thinking of "everybody's different"....but also that our own individual bodies change over time. liver used to be a godsend for me. well, now it's not. something must have shifted....i retain less zinc, i'm getting too much copper from shrimp, i'm retaining vitamin A better.....the reasoning could go on. In this sense, cravings are not an enigmatic thing.

When liver was helping you did you enjoy eating it? Did it taste good? I've noticed that in most cases it tastes good when there is something of value in it that your body needs. Once you become saturated with said substance, then that particular food starts to lose it's appeal/taste.

yeah, it tasted good - but not in the typical sense that i would describe "good" - it was like the experience was enjoyable.....and it gave me a kind of drug-free high. now, it tastes about the same....but when i eat it i don't enjoy the experience....and afterwards i don't have that high anymore....and worse, it seems to give me a feeling of inflammation

 

[tara]

I don't think it makes sense to persist in forcing particular foods if we are not enjoying them or don't feel good from eating them. I do think there is often something to be learned from noticing cravings and what we enjoy. I don't think tastes are always an entirely reliable guide, but I think they can carry important information that we can't figure out any other way. An I think there is value in widening our experience by trying new and varied foods, so that our system has more information about available options.

I agree that most foods are not all good or all bad. (I no longer consider refined seed oils to be food, nor various recent food additive chemicals.) And as you say, some foods can be good for some people, and not great for others. Or not so good this week or year.

I've experimented with more milk, and rejected it again or for now, at least in large quantities. But I think it was a very good thing that I got lots of it while growing up.
Potatoes (with salt and a little butter) seem to make me feel good. I think I do better with at least some starchy carbs, and some sugars, not all one or the other.
I have craved and enjoyed small amounts of liver frequently for a couple of years, and just recently not wanted it as often. If I had gone with my childhood distaste, I would never have experimented with cooking it different ways and found out how good it could be.
I love the taste of my own homemade bread, but I don't think it serves me well if I eat much of it - hard to be certain though, because some things give a delayed/indirect effect, and there are always so many uncontrolled/uncontrollable variables. I seldom bake it because I have trouble resisting over-eating it, and I don't curently trust my tastes on this one.

 

[Derek]

post 111573 I don't think it makes sense to persist in forcing particular foods if we are not enjoying them or don't feel good from eating them. I do think there is often something to be learned from noticing cravings and what we enjoy. I don't think tastes are always an entirely reliable guide, but I think they can carry important information that we can't figure out any other way. An I think there is value in widening our experience by trying new and varied foods, so that our system has more information about available options.

I agree that most foods are not all good or all bad. (I no longer consider refined seed oils to be food, nor various recent food additive chemicals.) And as you say, some foods can be good for some people, and not great for others. Or not so good this week or year.

I've experimented with more milk, and rejected it again or for now, at least in large quantities. But I think it was a very good thing that I got lots of it while growing up.
Potatoes (with salt and a little butter) seem to make me feel good. I think I do better with at least some starchy carbs, and some sugars, not all one or the other.
I have craved and enjoyed small amounts of liver frequently for a couple of years, and just recently not wanted it as often. If I had gone with my childhood distaste, I would never have experimented with cooking it different ways and found out how good it could be.
I love the taste of my own homemade bread, but I don't think it serves me well if I eat much of it - hard to be certain though, because some things give a delayed/indirect effect, and there are always so many uncontrolled/uncontrollable variables. I seldom bake it because I have trouble resisting over-eating it, and I don't curently trust my tastes on this one.

You tolerated milk better as a kid because you were a fast oxidizer. That's why you frequently here adults say, "Man, I could drink tons of milk as a kid and it didn't bother me, now I can't even drink a cup without a negative reaction." Unless you have the most robust metabolism, it is very difficult to process milk.

Bread rocks! Funny how you say you don't make it frequently because you can't resist overeating it, maybe your body's trying to tell you something? If you don't tolerate it well that's probably because you don't eat it frequently. You eat it occasionally so your body doesn't have a chance to adjust to it. I was like that when I started eating wheat again. I would eat it occasionally and I seemed to have issues, but I craved it so bad I couldn't stay away completely. I then decided to make homemade white bread and eat it everyday for 2 weeks; by the end of that time I was tolerating it way better than I did at the start!

 

[Nicholas]

post 111699 you can't resist overeating it, maybe your body's trying to tell you something?

this thought popped into my head today and it's a very difficult one to consider....because there's other factors like convenience. do you tolerate bread now completely? do you get carbs from other sources as well?

 

[Derek]

post 111702

post 111699 you can't resist overeating it, maybe your body's trying to tell you something?

this thought popped into my head today and it's a very difficult one to consider....because there's other factors like convenience. do you tolerate bread now completely? do you get carbs from other sources as well?

I make my own homemade white bread. It isn't convenient at all. Yes, I tolerate homemade white bread completely; not whole wheat though. I get carbs mostly from bread, potatoes and rice. Maybe a little milk/sugar or apple juice as well, but that's a small percentage of my daily carb intake.

 

[Nicholas]

post 111703

post 111702

post 111699 you can't resist overeating it, maybe your body's trying to tell you something?

this thought popped into my head today and it's a very difficult one to consider....because there's other factors like convenience. do you tolerate bread now completely? do you get carbs from other sources as well?

I make my own homemade white bread. It isn't convenient at all. Yes, I tolerate homemade white bread completely; not whole wheat though. I get carbs mostly from bread, potatoes and rice. Maybe a little milk/sugar or apple juice as well, but that's a small percentage of my daily carb intake.

i can eat white bread for the most part, but not completely. we don't entertain the idea of forcing one to drink milk until they tolerate it (actually, now that i think about it - i think Ray Peat has advocated this approach).....or to eat fish until they tolerate it. just thinking out loud...

 

[milk_lover]

post 111704

post 111703

post 111702

post 111699 you can't resist overeating it, maybe your body's trying to tell you something?

this thought popped into my head today and it's a very difficult one to consider....because there's other factors like convenience. do you tolerate bread now completely? do you get carbs from other sources as well?

I make my own homemade white bread. It isn't convenient at all. Yes, I tolerate homemade white bread completely; not whole wheat though. I get carbs mostly from bread, potatoes and rice. Maybe a little milk/sugar or apple juice as well, but that's a small percentage of my daily carb intake.

i can eat white bread for the most part, but not completely. we don't entertain the idea of forcing one to drink milk until they tolerate it (actually, now that i think about it - i think Ray Peat has advocated this approach).....or to eat fish until they tolerate it. just thinking out loud...

I've loved drinking milk all my life and I quit drinking it for a year when I became a low carber (worst decision of my life--stupid cult with close-minded mentality but the good part is that I learned a lot about my body because of that experience). Initially when I introduced milk, it was very difficult to digest, I got bloated, but because I listened to Peat advice, I am now able to tolerate milk just fine.

post 111699 That's why you frequently here adults say, "Man, I could drink tons of milk as a kid and it didn't bother me, now I can't even drink a cup without a negative reaction." Unless you have the most robust metabolism, it is very difficult to process milk.

Bread rocks!

If you can handle bread, which is way difficult to digest than milk, than I think you can handle milk. Milk is nutritionally superior to bread even though I love white bread dearly.

post 111573 I seldom bake it because I have trouble resisting over-eating it, and I don't curently trust my tastes on this one.

Why don't you trust your tastes on bread? Many food and health/gym fanatics believe if you are not enjoying it, you're doing it right and I don't believe this is healthy. They force themselves to exercise and eat a lot of salads that they don't enjoy.

 

[Nicholas]

post 111726 Many food and health/gym fanatics believe if you are not enjoying it, you're doing it right and I don't believe this is healthy.

lately i am beginning to explore this aspect of healing - enjoying your food. Not just taste buds, but also gratitude for even having food to eat. gratitude can be a form of sacrifice. sometimes the motives for health or authoritarians like anxiety inhibit healing altogether. i believe more and more that we are supposed to enjoy what we eat - on many levels. And moderation and good decisions can exist within that - in fact, it's part of what makes it enjoyable.

 

[milk_lover]

post 111742

post 111726 Many food and health/gym fanatics believe if you are not enjoying it, you're doing it right and I don't believe this is healthy.

lately i am beginning to explore this aspect of healing - enjoying your food. Not just taste buds, but also gratitude for even having food to eat. gratitude can be a form of sacrifice. sometimes the motives for health or authoritarians like anxiety inhibit healing altogether. i believe more and more that we are supposed to enjoy what we eat - on many levels. And moderation and good decisions can exist within that - in fact, it's part of what makes it enjoyable.

I totally agree with this! Neil deGrasse, a well-known smart astrophysicist, was once asked in an interview what his diet is. He said that he only eats what he enjoys. If it is delicious he eats it, if not, he doesn't. Very simple and see how healthy and intelligent the guy is.

 

[tara]

post 111699 Bread rocks! Funny how you say you don't make it frequently because you can't resist overeating it, maybe your body's trying to tell you something? If you don't tolerate it well that's probably because you don't eat it frequently. You eat it occasionally so your body doesn't have a chance to adjust to it. I was like that when I started eating wheat again. I would eat it occasionally and I seemed to have issues, but I craved it so bad I couldn't stay away completely. I then decided to make homemade white bread and eat it everyday for 2 weeks; by the end of that time I was tolerating it way better than I did at the start!

Wouldn't surprise me if it is general low metabolism that is messing with my handling of milk. Does 'fast oxidiser' in your frame correspond to getting most of one's energy by oxidising sugars (as opposed to fats or glycolysis)?

I don't think it was lack of eating bread that messed with my handing of that. Many years ago a naturopath suggested I try a week or two gluten-free, since he'd seen studies on correlation between coeliac and my key issue. Didn't help with that. But I realised after a few days that my transit had normalised, after many years of mild chronic diarrhea that I'd gotten used to and didn't realise was abnormal.

post 111573 I seldom bake it because I have trouble resisting over-eating it, and I don't curently trust my tastes on this one.

Why don't you trust your tastes on bread? Many food and health/gym fanatics believe if you are not enjoying it, you're doing it right and I don't believe this is healthy. They force themselves to exercise and eat a lot of salads that they don't enjoy.

I trust my taste enough to try it now and then, but then I notice how it makes me feel - short term good, medium term worse. I love milk too, and cheese, and yogurt, but they don't seem to love me either, at least for now. I'm wondering whether the same may apply to chocolate.
I don't force my self to eat anything I don't enjoy, though, and there are other things to eat that I also like, at least at home where I have some control.