(((#newhere))) --> Rookie Ray Peat Alchemist <--

[Satellite]

Hello,

I am new here and don't know what to make of this bloodwork (the Ray Peat way).
Based on some Ray Peat YT videos, I am thinking I am hypothyroid.
Evidenced by the low Vitamin D, low Calcium, and high thyroid, which Ray said is a trick.
Heart problems, diabetes, Parkinson's and osteoporosis seem to be the diseases in my family.

Any thoughts?
All perspectives are *welcome*.

***If you would, please include evidence supporting your hypothesis, and also the evidence nonsupporting it to assist in a more holistic analysis.***

 

[Jon]

I'm not understanding why you think your calcium is low, or thyroid is high?

Calcium is on mid range, thyroid looks to be on higher end of t-4 but it looks like you have decent t-3 conversion. Though I'm not really sure if tests differentiate between t-3 and rT-3 when it's just a basic overview like this?

VitD is undoubtedly low. I believe 52ng/dl is the sweet spot, but here's a study suggesting something similar:
Optimal serum 25-hydroxyvitamin D levels for multiple health outcomes. - PubMed - NCBI

 

[danishispsychic]

really just looks to me like blood sugar issues and possible pituitary gland issue. does not look like hypothyroid to me. what are your symptoms? the only thing that looks weird to me is you high IGF-1. Are you taking supplements?

 

[jitsmonkey]

Bloodwork without daily pulse/temperature/mood data is nearly worthless.

 

[Jon]

really just looks to me like blood sugar issues and possible pituitary gland issue. does not look like hypothyroid to me. what are your symptoms? the only thing that looks weird to me is you high IGF-1. Are you taking supplements?

What stats would constitute a pituitary issue? I'm curious.

 

[Satellite]

I'm not understanding why you think your calcium is low, or thyroid is high?

Calcium is on mid range, thyroid looks to be on higher end of t-4 but it looks like you have decent t-3 conversion. Though I'm not really sure if tests differentiate between t-3 and rT-3 when it's just a basic overview like this?

VitD is undoubtedly low. I believe 52ng/dl is the sweet spot, but here's a study suggesting something similar:
Optimal serum 25-hydroxyvitamin D levels for multiple health outcomes. - PubMed - NCBI

Thanks for your reply!

How can you tell I have decent t-3 conversion? My t-4?
Also, I was saying the I have low thyroid.
My t-4 is high, which regulates my t-3 conversion in the liver, but my TSH seems low.

 

[Satellite]

really just looks to me like blood sugar issues and possible pituitary gland issue. does not look like hypothyroid to me. what are your symptoms? the only thing that looks weird to me is you high IGF-1. Are you taking supplements?

Thanks for the reply!

So I thought that too!

I heard Ray Peat mention in a YT video something about this, but I can't remember it exactly.
However, that is what made me have the same thought you did.

Diabetes runs in my family, so do you think my bloods suggest that more than thyroid or osteo?
I am always feeling fatigued.

Also, yes I do take supplements, but they differ, depending on what I am doing with my training.

I am not a bodybuilder, but I sort of zig-zag like they do with bulking and cutting.

If I am building my body (strength or muscle) then my supps help that and vice versa.

However, they change each cycle, so I don't really have a permanent regimen.

 

[Satellite]

Bloodwork without daily pulse/temperature/mood data is nearly worthless.

Thanks for the reply!

Oh, so how do I do those things?
As in what frequency, etc.
Every few hours?
IDK how to take temps either, what do you use?

 

[Satellite]

What stats would constitute a pituitary issue? I'm curious.

My bloods say my IGF-1 is above normal high @ 255.
The range is 88-246.

I also vaguely recall Peat saying that this is a sign of stress, but can't recall exactly.

 

[Satellite]

Here are some more definitive reasons why I think I am hypothyroid.

I have symptoms of poor bone health and poor insulin functioning, but after listening to Peat I felt like it was all because my poor thyroid wasn't allowing my body to work right.

Seems to me like everything that is in my blood stream needs to be in my muslces, bones, and tissues instead.

Ray Peat says that following in KMUD: 6-15-12 Cellular Repair @ 41 min:

“Parathyroid hormone comes down when you eat more calcium and have adequate vitamin D. And parathyroid hormone increases aldosterone, and if you restrict calcium your parathyroid hormone goes up, that makes your aldosterone stress hormone go up, that makes you increase your blood pressure and retain sodium.”

My sodium is 142 out of 144.


The interviewer then states:

“The whole calcium thing is a misnomer then. When you don’t take adequate calcium your blood calcium goes up and calcium gets deposited in the soft tissues, and this is part of the reason why the cardiovascular disease happens in the first place, because of the calcium being taken up into the arterials and become less flexible.”

In other words, a low calcium diet leads to hardened arteries and high blood pressure.


Then, a caller (diagnosed hyperthyroid by her doctor) asks a question about if she should cut back on sodium, because doctors always blame sodium, but Ray Peat says low calcium is really to blame for high blood pressure.

Ray Peat explains,

“Hypothyroidism causes you to lose sodium and it’s probably the main cause of people having high aldosterone, because of low thyroid or low calcium.”

(Caller interrupts to explain she was hyperthyroid not hypothyroid).

Ray Peat says,

“Well, that is often the diagnosis, but it’s often doubtful how factual the diagnosis is, because stress will cause your TSH to give an indication of hyperthyroidism and high stress hormones can give you the symptoms of hypothyroidism and those can be cured by a supplement of thyroid.”


Most of that fits with me. I have 14 cavities but I know people who never brush and have 0, and Osteoporosis runs in my family, so after hearing that from Peat it kind of makes sense to me, especially now after taking Calcirol (Vit D3) and Kuinone (K2) from Idealabs by @haidut , which has made my teeth stronger and whiter, and I think my bones in general, because I am much stronger in the gym and the increase fits more with structural improvement more than muscle strength, because my barbell lifts all went up 50-100 lbs almost overnight. That doesn’t even occur when I am on a bioidentical hormone cycle. However, my recovery time from workouts is slow and I am always feeling fatigued (poor sleep too), therefore, I feel like it is a combination of low thyroid, poor bone health and calcium utilization, and poor heart health.

I tend to think the high IGF-1 is just from the stress.

Anyway, any thoughts?

 

[danishispsychic]

What stats would constitute a pituitary issue? I'm curious.

high igf-1

 

[Jon]

It's all stress related man. Do you ever take off weeks?

High Igf-1 is also associate with high protein intake (which makes sense since high protein intake is linked to high cortisol production). Igf-1 is also associate with calcium absorption but I think the studies may have that a bit twisted as I'm sure the hightened calcium they're seeing is via parathyroid hormone.

Do you supplement calcium?

I think you should try lowering you protein to 0.8g/lb of lean mass and taking two weeks off from training as the gains will still be there. After your lay off I think you should think seriously about adopting a program that takes a week off once every 3-4 weeks.

Low Protein Intake is Associated with a Major Reduction in IGF-1, Cancer, and Overall Mortality in the 65 and Younger but Not Older Population

Myostatin expression during human muscle hypertrophy and subsequent atrophy: increased myostatin with detraining. - PubMed - NCBI

 

[Jon]

Body composition, metabolism, sleep, psychological and eating patterns of overtraining syndrome: Results of the EROS study (EROS-PROFILE). - PubMed - NCBI

Can Sleep Be Used as an Indicator of Overreaching and Overtraining in Athletes?

 

[Jon]

If calcium intakes are low or Phosphorous is not met with a 1:1 or a 2:1 of Ca:P then vitamin D will stimulate PTH secretion:



Calcium and Phosphate Homeostasis

 

[Satellite]

It's all stress related man. Do you ever take off weeks?

High Igf-1 is also associate with high protein intake (which makes sense since high protein intake is linked to high cortisol production). Igf-1 is also associate with calcium absorption but I think the studies may have that a bit twisted as I'm sure the hightened calcium they're seeing is via parathyroid hormone.

Do you supplement calcium?

I think you should try lowering you protein to 0.8g/lb of lean mass and taking two weeks off from training as the gains will still be there. After your lay off I think you should think seriously about adopting a program that takes a week off once every 3-4 weeks.

Low Protein Intake is Associated with a Major Reduction in IGF-1, Cancer, and Overall Mortality in the 65 and Younger but Not Older Population

Myostatin expression during human muscle hypertrophy and subsequent atrophy: increased myostatin with detraining. - PubMed - NCBI

Thanks for the reply!

Yes, so, my diet is primarily protein and carbs, except during my cutting phases.
Then I am more protein only and a bit of fat.
My cuts are usually no more than 4 days as the metabolism adapts within 100 hours.
This allows me to effectively burn fat and not muscle.

However, I am only able to afford 100-150 g of protein per day, so I typically get less than what you are saying as I weigh > 200 lbs.
I wholly agree with your recommendations though.

At the same time, the odd thing is that I continue to make muscular and strength gains every cycle.
This may be due to the supplementation and proper programming of volume and intensity.
But perhaps it is still too much for the amount of food I eat?
Thus, causing me stress?

My cycles are phase based, so blocks of focused training.
Usually 3, 3 week waves, ramping up to heavy weight percentages over the 9 weeks, with a week transition or back off into the next phase, ending with a 10 day bulk / 4 day cut.
Repeat.
I don't do resistance work daily, and on off days I usually just walk with ankle weights and weighted vest.
Nothing crazy, just get my HR around 100 and get blood to my tissues.

I supplement calcium hydroxyapatite by Now Foods called Bone Meal; it's 80% calcium : 30% phosphorous.
Usually 1 g per day in yogurt, but I have been forgetting to do it daily this year.

I wholly think all your recommendations are spot on.
But for right now, I cannot afford a better diet, and I can't stop working out.
When I don't work out, I feel worse and even more sluggish.
Which is why I think I am hypothyroid, because more activity actually gives me more energy, allowing me to be more productive.

And that is why I am here.
I am hoping to find a way to keep my current activity, yet become more productive, smarter, healthier, etc.

Based on that do you think that my calcium is too low, causing PTH release?
Would you still not recommend a thyroid supplement?
What would you suggest then?
I am hoping to look like you!
You're looking pretty sick man.

 

[Satellite]

Body composition, metabolism, sleep, psychological and eating patterns of overtraining syndrome: Results of the EROS study (EROS-PROFILE). - PubMed - NCBI

Can Sleep Be Used as an Indicator of Overreaching and Overtraining in Athletes?

Yeah my sleep is definitely an issue.
However, I will need to read more on this.
I am not sure if I am over trained as I continue to make progress.
Perhaps it is my "supplementation" doing the work for me?

Also, my other post explains how I am trying to find a way to become more active, more productive.
My mind is such that I am never doing enough and always need to progress, not just my fitness, but other areas of my life, so I am always stressed that I am not doing enough.
It's hard to turn off.
But I am not a hyper person either.
I can remain calm in situations most people can't.
I just have this incessant internal drive to accomplish things.

 

[Satellite]

high igf-1

Do you think it's cancer?

I read online that high IGF-1 is a sign of cancer

 

[Jon]

Yeah my sleep is definitely an issue.
However, I will need to read more on this.
I am not sure if I am over trained as I continue to make progress.
Perhaps it is my "supplementation" doing the work for me?

Also, my other post explains how I am trying to find a way to become more active, more productive.
My mind is such that I am never doing enough and always need to progress, not just my fitness, but other areas of my life, so I am always stressed that I am not doing enough.
It's hard to turn off.
But I am not a hyper person either.
I can remain calm in situations most people can't.
I just have this incessant internal drive to accomplish things.

Whew, so much to address lol ok let's dive in lol..

How old are you? How long have you been training? This will in large part tell me if your current rapid/large fluctuations between calorie surplus and calorie deficit are beneficial or not.

Do you know what your lean mass is? I'm guessing you're actually eating around 0.8g/lbs of LEAN mass unless your 3-5%bf lol.


You can still easily make strength gains in an overly fatigued state, in fact you may actually make them easier. I've done this plenty, I've hit many pr's while dieting for bodybuilding shows all the way down to ~4% bf. Things like squats were weaker than normal b/c of leverages but leg press, ham curls, db presses, rows, etc. gained strength throughout dieting. This is a function of your nervous system becoming more and more efficient at firing, and contrary to popular belief, you don't NEED much testosterone circulating to have a hypertrophic muscle effect, as there are many other processes that induce adaptation, and it's especially hightened during stressful times as the body always sequesters resources to preserve what it deems it's most vital functions for survival, and keeping muscle around is high priority for it when you're inducing potentially life threatening mechanical tension lol. Proof of this is the fact that women can gain similar mass to men in their legs. This is thought to happen because women have a high concentration of androgen receptors in their legs and so if a body is efficient at utilizing androgens then higher concentrations in serum aren't necessary for growth.

I like how your Mesocycles are structured BUT in my experience deloads are the current fitness industries stupidest general recommendation. I NEVER feel better during or after a deload. Imo a rest week with no training is much superior, I wrote about what happened to me in a thread awhile back when I took two weeks off for the first time in YEARS ( nearly 9 lol) and man it was a wake up call! But after two weeks off I felt like a new man! Now instead of a deload (I also progress in 4 week blocks) I just take a whole week off and do low intensity walks and full body static stretching.

The first thing you notice is by day 3 and 4 your joints and muscles ACHE, you feel fatigued like you ran a marathon, and probably have restless leg to some degree. But after those initial three days your appetite all but dissappears, you may actually start to lose weight (mostly edema from reduced cortisol and adrenaline and minor amounts of fat your body probably gained for protection), you radiate heat, libido goes way up, you sleep deep and dream, and probably wake up with morning wood. Doing this has gotten my natural natural test levels up to 818ng/dl (lifetime natural). For the first 3-4 days I'd reccomend overeating to some extent as 3 days of overeating post starvation results in replenished leptin levels (which I believe is why your appetite disappears). I HIGHLY HIGHLY reccomend you try this, it could change your life like it did mine.

I think your nearly obsessive behavior towards training is a combo of parasympathetic/sympathetic nervous system dominance AND the mark of an individual who is disciplined but also unwilling to let go of the one thing going right. I've been there, had identical symptoms as you (probably worse) and my devotion was my biggest downfall. I could tell you an absurdly long story of how I almost killed myself trying to be productive in every facet of my life (training, job, relationships, etc.) but yeah I won't lol.

I think you need to let go and rest.

In lieu of all this, I don't think your supps are helping. If anything they may be making it worse. I have a large inkling you're overloaded in Phosphorous and are indeed secreting high levels of PTH. It's incredibly easy to do, ESPECIALLY on a high protein diet. Many in here would suggest mostly milk and gelatin represent your protein sources to avoid PTH, but I think it's too much liquid, and not enough bcaas for someone who weight trains progressively. Muscle meat/offal, eggs, cottage cheese, and sting cheese are awesome but all have relatively poor ratios of calcium to Phosphorous so if you're not supplementing pure calcium (like calcium carbonate or drinking Gerolsteiner) then you will be in calcium debt.

I think you need to consider that necessity at this point dicatates to be progressive with all your goals means you need to let your body ACTUATE the adaptations you have stimulated, which only happens during adequate rest and sustenance.

I don't think more hormones will do you any good. I think you have a healthy body that's over taxed, and needs the chance to recover.

Put it to you this way...igf-1 stands for Insulin Like Growth Factor-1. You have a build up of it, meaning it's trying HARD to stimulate tissues to grow, but can't because you're not LETTING it. Make sense man?

Haha well my profile pic was taken 6 weeks out from a show lol so I was looking "Ideal" at the time lol. Normally, in a healthy state, I sit 20lbs above that lol. You'll get there! Just gotta be consistent and wise with your process.

 

[Satellite]

Whew, so much to address lol ok let's dive in lol..

How old are you? How long have you been training? This will in large part tell me if your current rapid/large fluctuations between calorie surplus and calorie deficit are beneficial or not.

Do you know what your lean mass is? I'm guessing you're actually eating around 0.8g/lbs of LEAN mass unless your 3-5%bf lol.


You can still easily make strength gains in an overly fatigued state, in fact you may actually make them easier. I've done this plenty, I've hit many pr's while dieting for bodybuilding shows all the way down to ~4% bf. Things like squats were weaker than normal b/c of leverages but leg press, ham curls, db presses, rows, etc. gained strength throughout dieting. This is a function of your nervous system becoming more and more efficient at firing, and contrary to popular belief, you don't NEED much testosterone circulating to have a hypertrophic muscle effect, as there are many other processes that induce adaptation, and it's especially hightened during stressful times as the body always sequesters resources to preserve what it deems it's most vital functions for survival, and keeping muscle around is high priority for it when you're inducing potentially life threatening mechanical tension lol. Proof of this is the fact that women can gain similar mass to men in their legs. This is thought to happen because women have a high concentration of androgen receptors in their legs and so if a body is efficient at utilizing androgens then higher concentrations in serum aren't necessary for growth.

I like how your Mesocycles are structured BUT in my experience deloads are the current fitness industries stupidest general recommendation. I NEVER feel better during or after a deload. Imo a rest week with no training is much superior, I wrote about what happened to me in a thread awhile back when I took two weeks off for the first time in YEARS ( nearly 9 lol) and man it was a wake up call! But after two weeks off I felt like a new man! Now instead of a deload (I also progress in 4 week blocks) I just take a whole week off and do low intensity walks and full body static stretching.

The first thing you notice is by day 3 and 4 your joints and muscles ACHE, you feel fatigued like you ran a marathon, and probably have restless leg to some degree. But after those initial three days your appetite all but dissappears, you may actually start to lose weight (mostly edema from reduced cortisol and adrenaline and minor amounts of fat your body probably gained for protection), you radiate heat, libido goes way up, you sleep deep and dream, and probably wake up with morning wood. Doing this has gotten my natural natural test levels up to 818ng/dl (lifetime natural). For the first 3-4 days I'd reccomend overeating to some extent as 3 days of overeating post starvation results in replenished leptin levels (which I believe is why your appetite disappears). I HIGHLY HIGHLY reccomend you try this, it could change your life like it did mine.

I think your nearly obsessive behavior towards training is a combo of parasympathetic/sympathetic nervous system dominance AND the mark of an individual who is disciplined but also unwilling to let go of the one thing going right. I've been there, had identical symptoms as you (probably worse) and my devotion was my biggest downfall. I could tell you an absurdly long story of how I almost killed myself trying to be productive in every facet of my life (training, job, relationships, etc.) but yeah I won't lol.

I think you need to let go and rest.

In lieu of all this, I don't think your supps are helping. If anything they may be making it worse. I have a large inkling you're overloaded in Phosphorous and are indeed secreting high levels of PTH. It's incredibly easy to do, ESPECIALLY on a high protein diet. Many in here would suggest mostly milk and gelatin represent your protein sources to avoid PTH, but I think it's too much liquid, and not enough bcaas for someone who weight trains progressively. Muscle meat/offal, eggs, cottage cheese, and sting cheese are awesome but all have relatively poor ratios of calcium to Phosphorous so if you're not supplementing pure calcium (like calcium carbonate or drinking Gerolsteiner) then you will be in calcium debt.

I think you need to consider that necessity at this point dicatates to be progressive with all your goals means you need to let your body ACTUATE the adaptations you have stimulated, which only happens during adequate rest and sustenance.

I don't think more hormones will do you any good. I think you have a healthy body that's over taxed, and needs the chance to recover.

Put it to you this way...igf-1 stands for Insulin Like Growth Factor-1. You have a build up of it, meaning it's trying HARD to stimulate tissues to grow, but can't because you're not LETTING it. Make sense man?

Haha well my profile pic was taken 6 weeks out from a show lol so I was looking "Ideal" at the time lol. Normally, in a healthy state, I sit 20lbs above that lol. You'll get there! Just gotta be consistent and wise with your process.

Thanks for the reply!
You're a good person.
Thanks for helping without charging.

I am 32. I played sports as a child through college. Got into weights junior year of high school, but not heavily until college, and even more so after college.
Training is a part of my lifestyle now.
Second nature.

The 10 day bulk / 4 day cut works excellent for me if I just repeat that for 3-4 months.
However, I enjoy all the other stuff too, so I don't.
I pretty much just use it to "shape" everything I just built the previous 9 weeks and burn off some fat.
No matter how hard I workout, or consistent though, I never, ever look like you!

I am not 3-5% body fat.
I wish!
I'd look like you.

I am probably 20% fat!
I have a 4 pack with love handles.
They never go away!!

I hear what you are saying about the training though.
I am finishing a cycle soon and will do what you say.
My week transitions are usually weighted walks (HR @ 100 bpm for 45-60 min) and feeder workouts for 90 - 120 min basically circuits using the machines for easy 20 reps.
I just walk around casually for 90+ minutes doing light sets for blood flow and fascia stretching, nothing even close to challenging.

Haha yeah we sound similar. I am a bit obsessive. But not being productive makes me worse!

I finally started having good fat loss and energy when I was taking Androsterone, Pansterone, 5a-DHP, and Diamant from Idealabs.
But the Pansterone and 5a-DHP feminized me, so I stopped.
The Andro is good, it energizes me, almost like a thryoid, but it causes lethargy after a while.

Here's the kicker.
I am currently 210-215.
I don't want to get bigger though.
That's the thing.
I want more energy and fat loss, but I can't cut for 6 months.
I like to eat too much and I think long term calorie restriction is a bad idea healthwise.

Once my week off is up, what would you suggest for my goals?
I seem to be holding on to fat, regardless of diet and exercise.
I don't have a lot of free time to sleep extra either.
How did you get so lean?

 

[Jon]

No man, my suggestion is take TWO weeks off this first round of breaking from training. Then afterward just one week of no training after 3-4 weeks of progression would be ideal. You most likely have a lot of fatigue to bleed off, your nerves or metaphorically FRIED. And yeah dude no sweat, I just like helping people lol.

Haha you don't want to look like that unless you plan to do a bodybuilding/physique show or photo shoot lol. It's unhealthy. 8%bf is about as low as any natural lifter should ever go for a permanent settling point if they want to have a sex drive, sleep, continue to gain muscle, keep their joints healthy, not get cancer lol.

If you're looking to do actual steroids, well, I suppose you could stay shredded like that 24/7 but I don't really know how to use gear so I can't help you there lol.

To be honest man, you're a relatively seasoned lifter and not a spring chicken (don't take that as an insult, spring chickens in this game are anyone under 20 years old lol). At this point in your life and in your training career you're gonna need quantity FOR quality. What I mean is you will get the most out of focusing on one goal at a time for EXTEDNED periods of time. Rome wasn't built in a day, neither will you be.

Instead of fluctuating so wildly like you are, I'd suggest extended gaining phases. A muscular gaining phase for an advanced intermediate lifter like you would be one that focuses on maintaining your current weight, while focusing on progression in the gym and advancing your TOTAL VOLUME.

To get exceptionally lean there's not a single advanced trainee worth their salt that would tell you, you can get alien looking without copious amounts of time spent in a deficit. It just doesnt happen. Not easily anyway, you'd basically sacrifice nearly as much muscle as you would fat trying to lose more that 1.5lbs a week unless you're morbidly obese. As you break through 10%bf and down you face an even steeper uphill battle, your body becomes more and more resistant to weightloss psychologically and neurologically as it fears you will starve to death.

I got down to ~4%bf for shows by dieting for usually 36-52 weeks depending on how much fat I had to lose lol. I would diet for the first 16-20 weeks by dieting for 4 weeks straight, with one to two refeed days a week, then take a two week "diet break" and eat in a small surplus for 3-4 days then spend the remainder at current maintenance levels. From weeks 21-42 I would diet for 3 weeks straight, 2weeks off, only dieting 5 days a week followed by 3 refeed days in a row. Weeks 43-52 were 2 weeks of dieting, one week off, 5 days of dieting, 3 off, and the week before a show was spent increasing calories slowly to replenish glycogen stores. I only did cardio during the last half of dieting as cardio puts a ton of stress on your body and the name of the game for longevity is fatigue management so I'd only use that as a tool to eek out a little more of a weekly deficit.

I say focus on one or the other. Fat loss or progression. Fat loss doesn't happen without stress. Some believe it can by using a very low/no fat diet. I'm still somewhat on the fence about it but I suppose you could try it.

Personally muscle is what makes you look good, being lean without copious muscle just makes you skinny lol so I personally don't lean out unless I've spend 8 or more months focused on only gaining strength and increasing my volume while eating at maintenance or a very minor surplus. I've been training for 12 years now though lol and my first five were spent focusing on gaining sizeable scale weight but soon thereafter putting tons of weight on doesn't give you the same return it did when you were a novice lifter. so take that for what you will lol