Confusing Info From RP About Coconut Oil And Butter

pauljacob

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I've heard RP recommend butter and coconut oil in many videos and interviews, yet in this video he says they cause cancer and are loaded with PUFA, and eventually will kill you. Anyone cares to explain this confusing info. For the past couple of months I've stopped using EVOO and starting using coconut oil and butter only to be told I'm hurting my health.
 

jamies33

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Hes saying even the tiny amount of PUFA in butter/CO can cause spontaneous cancer and the hydrogenated CO is the only fat that reduces spontaneous cancer to essentially 0, like a fat-free (PUFA-free) diet.
 

pauljacob

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Hes saying even the tiny amount of PUFA in butter/CO can cause spontaneous cancer and the hydrogenated CO is the only fat that reduces spontaneous cancer to essentially 0, like a fat-free (PUFA-free) diet.
Thank you jamies33. I don't remember ever seeing a jar of CO with the label "hydrogenated" on it. How to find the hydrogenated product?
 

gaze

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Thank you jamies33. I don't remember ever seeing a jar of CO with the label "hydrogenated" on it. How to find the hydrogenated product?

look for the word “refined” on the jar.

Edit: never mind..see comment below
 
Last edited:

Comstock

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You'll need to special order fully hydrogenated coconut oil. It's not usually in stores. Peat buys like a barrel at a time lol.

Refined isn't fully hydrogenated.
 

pauljacob

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You'll need to special order fully hydrogenated coconut oil. It's not usually in stores. Peat buys like a barrel at a time lol.

Refined isn't fully hydrogenated.
Thank you Comstock. Since you know RP buys it by the barrel, then perhaps you also know where he buys it from. According to this useful article refined CO is liquid at room temperature. Hydrogenated oil is solid at room temperature. Partially hydrogenated is half & half. So I'm going to check the stores for solid CO. Some good info in this article.
Ultimate Guide to Different Types of Coconut Oils - Above House
 

gaze

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just as a caution, Ray says things often times in hypothetical scenarios, not as advice, so if you do try to drastically cut down on even butter and coconut oil, ensure that you get enough calories from protein and sugar because its very easy to accidently under eat, especially if your not eating starch as well. Ray has mentioned even up to 30% of the diet from butter and coconut oil is generally safe, and a minimal of 15% is probably required to help digestion. you definitely aren't hurting your health by switching from EVOO to butter or coconut oil
 
Last edited:

Maljam

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In one of his recent interviews with Patrick Timpone Peat says that the liver is able to process lower amounts of PUFA just fine and seems to suggest PUFA overload is the issue. Don't become orthorexic and worry about the PUFA in coconut oil and butter. Just cut out industrial vegetable oils (if you are even still eating them) that would be the most important thing.
 

opson123

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Here's a post from Travis about the hydrogenation process of coconut oil leaching aluminum into the oil. I think this is also a good reason to not stress about the tiny amount of PUFA in normal coconut oil.

1. The Raney Catalyst is ancient, dating back to 1932.⁽¹⁾ To hydrogenate a lipid double=bond, it is first helpful to stabilize the H₂ by adsorbing it onto a metal. Palladium and platinum work the best but are expensive, so nickel is commonly used to hydrogenate the oils. To save the catalytic nickel, it is electroplated onto aluminum particles which are made porous—with an acid—to increase surface area. Hence, Raney particles are mostly nickel and aluminum.

'The Raney catalyst is prepared by alloying equal parts of nickel and aluminum and then dissolving out the latter with aqueous sodium hydroxide.' ―Covert⁽¹⁾​

These Raney particles adsorb hydrogen gas. The hydrogen atoms are then donated to lipid double bonds—saturating them with hydrogen.

2. Nickel in hydrogenated oils is usually stressed, as this is actually somewhat toxic, and is generally found at around one part per million.⁽²⁾⁽³⁾ But for some reason, aluminum isn't looked for as often. But it has been found, of course, since it's always associated with the Raney catalyst.

'This interest derives from the association of trace metals with the origin of oils (soils and fertilizers), metal processing equipment, and catalysts used for hydrogenation; toxicity of edible oils and fats; and the effect of trace metals on the characteristics of finished products, such as color and taste.' ―Farhan⁽⁴⁾​

In hydrogenated oils, aluminum can be found in part per million concentrations:⁽⁴⁾

View attachment 7823

Now this isn't your ionic, one atom aluminum (Al³⁺); these are small micro‐ and nanometer‐sized particles which cannot be chelated by citrate, malate, nor silica, in the body. Some of these particles would be expected to be persorbed, as particles of similar size have been shown to do.⁽⁵⁾

3. Aluminum partitions around nerves because it has a high affinity for phosphate and the microtubule‐associated proteins are highly phosphorylated. This has been detected by a number of ways, and there is certainly no lack of evidence for this.⁽⁶⁾

View attachment 7824

I think it would be fair to say that aluminum has a peculiar affinity for nerves.

4. Aluminum actively crosslinks phosphorylated nerve proteins in vitro more than any other physiological ion. This helps to provide a mechanistic explanation, as it's well‐known to strongly bind phosphoryl groups. The phophoryl groups on proteins are usually bound to the amino aid tyrosine, but also to serine and threonine—basically to any hydroxy amino acid.

This affinity has been shown by gel electrophoresis. The aggregates shift in a gradient as they increase in size and density:⁽⁷⁾

View attachment 7825

Aluminum has been used by the hide tanning industry for this very reason.⁽⁸⁾

5. Aluminum‐crosslinked myelin proteins cause an inflammatory response, which is sometime called an 'autoimmune disease.' This is a misnomer, as the Greek prefix auto denotes that the body is attacking itself. This is only partly true, since the Al³⁺ ion is unnatural and responsible for changing the geometry of the phosphorylated myelin proteins. This is another case of faulty, irresponsible, and perhaps even deceptive semantics used to hide the fact of what's really going on.

Macrophages and killer T cells try to engulf the Al³⁺–protein complexes, and this is the so‐called 'autoimmunity.' Another deceptive, although correct, term is 'misfolded tau:'

'It has been hypothesized that misfolded tau protein could be a mediator of the inflammatory response in human tauopathies. Here we show that neurodegenerative lesions caused by human truncated tau promote inflammatory response manifested by upregulation of immune-molecules (CD11, CD18, CD4, CD45 and CD68) and morphological activation of microglial cells in a rat model of tauopathy. In parallel, the innate immune brain response promotes activation of MHC class II positive blood-borne leukocytes and their influx into the brain parenchyma.' ―Zilka⁽⁸⁾​

The criticism of this term is similar to the criticism made of the 'passive voice,' as the adjective 'misfolded' does not imply attribution. A more accurate description, written in a more active voice, would be a τ‐protein–Al³⁺ complex.

The misfoled tau τ‐protein–Al³⁺ complex attracts leukocytes, or immune cell macrophages which then attempt to engulf this tangle.

6. Nonhydrogenated coconut oil is completely safe because it has no aluminum. Millions of people can testify that neither coconuts, nor its oil, will produce neurodegeneration. And such an idea hasn't even a logical explanation.

[1] Covert, Lloyd W. "Nickel by the Raney Process as a Catalyst of Hydrogenation." Journal of the American Chemical Society (1932)
[2]Nash, A. M. "Determination of ultratrace metals in hydrogenated vegetable oils and fats." Journal of the American Oil Chemists' Society (1983)
[3] Anwar, Farooq. "Rapid determination of some trace metals in several oils and fats." Grasas y Aceites (2004)
[4] Farhan, F. M. "Determination of traces of heavy metals in oils and fats by arc spectrography." Journal of the American Oil Chemists' Society (1976)
[5] Volkheimer, G."The phenomenon of persorption." Digestion (1968)
[6] Piccardo, P. "Histochemical and X-ray microanalytical localization of aluminum in amyotrophic lateral sclerosis and parkinsonism-dementia of Guam." Acta neuropathologica (1988)
[7] Scott, Clay W. "Aggregation of tau protein by aluminum." Brain research (1993)
[8] Covington, Anthony D. "Modern tanning chemistry." Chemical Society Reviews 26.2 (1997): 111-126.
[8] Zilka, Norber. "Human misfolded truncated tau protein promotes activation of microglia and leukocyte infiltration..." Journal of neuroimmunology (2009)
[9] Perl, Daniel P. "Intraneuronal aluminum accumulation in amyotrophic lateral sclerosis and Parkinsonism-dementia of Guam." Science (1982)


Ray was asked about this as well, here's his reply.
me:
Hi Ray,
I don't know if other people warned you about it but there's a concern of aluminium contamination with hydrogenated CO:

Coconut Oil Leads To Dementia?


And more information here:

Coconut Oil Leads To Dementia?

[I posted the two posts in the mail to make sure he would see them]

Ray:

Neurology. 1985 Feb;35(2):193-8.
Disappearance of high-incidence amyotrophic lateral sclerosis and parkinsonism-dementia on Guam.
Garruto RM, Yanagihara R, Gajdusek DC.
The high incidence rates of amyotrophic lateral sclerosis (ALS) and parkinsonism-dementia (PD) occurring among the Chamorros of Guam have declined to rates only slightly higher than those observed in the continental United States. This decline has occurred principally among males, especially those born after 1920 and living in areas where calcium and magnesium levels are low in soil and water. The male-to-female ratio among affected patients now approaches unity, compared with ratios of 2 to 1 for ALS and 3 to 1 for PD three decades ago. These changes are consistent with the hypothesis that the previously high incidence resulted from defects in mineral metabolism and secondary hyperparathyroidism, provoked by nutritional deficiencies of calcium and magnesium, with resultant deposition of calcium and aluminum in neurons.

J Occup Environ Med. 2014 May;56(5 Suppl):S73-9.
Is the Aluminum Hypothesis dead?
Lidsky TI.
The Aluminum Hypothesis, the idea that aluminum exposure is involved in the etiology of Alzheimer disease, dates back to a 1965 demonstration that aluminum causes neurofibrillary tangles in the brains of rabbits. Initially the focus of intensive research, the AluminumHypothesis has gradually been abandoned by most researchers. Yet, despite this current indifference, the Aluminum Hypothesis continues to attract the attention of a small group of scientists and aluminum continues to be viewed with concern by some of the public. This review article discusses reasons that mainstream science has largely abandoned the Aluminum Hypothesis and explores a possible reason for some in the general public continuing to view aluminum with mistrust.
Free PMC Article
 
Last edited:

schultz

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just as a caution, Ray says things often times in hypothetical scenarios, not as advice,

In one of his recent interviews with Patrick Timpone Peat says that the liver is able to process lower amounts of PUFA just fine and seems to suggest PUFA overload is the issue. Don't become orthorexic and worry about the PUFA in coconut oil and butter. Just cut out industrial vegetable oils (if you are even still eating them) that would be the most important thing.

Yes, Ray is sometimes talking about things from the point-of-view of what is optimal for the organism theoretically. What are the controllable substances and environmental factors that cause us to age? Dietary PUFA, in any amount, is one of these, for an organism that is warm blooded and with oxidizable metals floating around in the system. Light is another one which is less easy to understand. We need to sleep after-all, but Ray has said darkness is when we do most of our aging. Good sleep minimizes the damaging effects of darkness. Another example is the pituitary gland. Theoretically we can live longer if we were to remove this gland and then supplement with thyroid. That doesn't mean any of us are actually going to do that, or that Ray recommends that. He is making a point that we should keep these hormones low via diet and lifestyle. Lastly, he has talked about a sterile gut as increasing longevity. He is not saying we should take antibiotics all the time and live in a bubble to accomplish this. The point is that our gut bacteria can cause damage to our bodies if too much endotoxin leaks into the system. When asked about this he said that if an animal had been sterile it's whole life that any bacterial onslaught could be deadly since the animal hadn't had any experience protecting itself.

So yes, theoretically the PUFA in coconut oil and butter is a problem. But I would like to live my life consuming a trace amount of PUFA. But it's fun to think about things theoretically. It can help us understand things better and also guide science and experiments.
 

pauljacob

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just as a caution, Ray says things often times in hypothetical scenarios, not as advice, so if you do try to drastically cut down on even butter and coconut oil, ensure that you get enough calories from protein and sugar because its very easy to accidently under eat, especially if your not eating starch as well. Ray has mentioned even up to 30% of the diet from butter and coconut oil is generally safe, and a minimal of 15% is probably required to help digestion. you definitely aren't hurting your health by switching from EVOO to butter or coconut oil
Thank you Kammas, appreciate the advice.
 

pauljacob

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In one of his recent interviews with Patrick Timpone Peat says that the liver is able to process lower amounts of PUFA just fine and seems to suggest PUFA overload is the issue. Don't become orthorexic and worry about the PUFA in coconut oil and butter. Just cut out industrial vegetable oils (if you are even still eating them) that would be the most important thing.
Thank you Maljam, sweet words to my ears :):
 

pauljacob

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Here's a post from Travis about the hydrogenation process of coconut oil leaching aluminum into the oil. I think this is also a good reason to not stress about the tiny amount of PUFA in normal coconut oil.




Ray was asked about this as well, here's his reply.
Thank you opson123. Goodbye PUFA stress!
 

pauljacob

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Yes, Ray is sometimes talking about things from the point-of-view of what is optimal for the organism theoretically. What are the controllable substances and environmental factors that cause us to age? Dietary PUFA, in any amount, is one of these, for an organism that is warm blooded and with oxidizable metals floating around in the system. Light is another one which is less easy to understand. We need to sleep after-all, but Ray has said darkness is when we do most of our aging. Good sleep minimizes the damaging effects of darkness. Another example is the pituitary gland. Theoretically we can live longer if we were to remove this gland and then supplement with thyroid. That doesn't mean any of us are actually going to do that, or that Ray recommends that. He is making a point that we should keep these hormones low via diet and lifestyle. Lastly, he has talked about a sterile gut as increasing longevity. He is not saying we should take antibiotics all the time and live in a bubble to accomplish this. The point is that our gut bacteria can cause damage to our bodies if too much endotoxin leaks into the system. When asked about this he said that if an animal had been sterile it's whole life that any bacterial onslaught could be deadly since the animal hadn't had any experience protecting itself.

So yes, theoretically the PUFA in coconut oil and butter is a problem. But I would like to live my life consuming a trace amount of PUFA. But it's fun to think about things theoretically. It can help us understand things better and also guide science and experiments.
Thank you schultz. Excellent info right there!
 

Jib

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You'll need to special order fully hydrogenated coconut oil. It's not usually in stores. Peat buys like a barrel at a time lol.

Refined isn't fully hydrogenated.

Welch, Holme and Clark is the best source for hydrogenated coconut oil IMO. Comes in a 5 gallon pail and comes with a batch analysis of all the fatty acids, absolutely everything you'd want to know. Have to order it over the phone. Super professional and helpful staff members as well. I think they deserve as much business as they can get. My batch is still going strong, have only gotten a little ways into it.

Pretty scary that even a small amount of PUFA can allegedly cause spontaneous cancer.
 

pauljacob

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Welch, Holme and Clark is the best source for hydrogenated coconut oil IMO. Comes in a 5 gallon pail and comes with a batch analysis of all the fatty acids, absolutely everything you'd want to know. Have to order it over the phone. Super professional and helpful staff members as well. I think they deserve as much business as they can get. My batch is still going strong, have only gotten a little ways into it.

Pretty scary that even a small amount of PUFA can allegedly cause spontaneous cancer.
Thank you Jib for the source. The Aluminum contamination posted by Opson123 made me change my mind about getting Hydrogenated CO.
 
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