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Where to Start: An Un-Peaty Guide to Peat
- Thread starter Impero
- Start date
Thank you for reading!
Glad it was of help. Yes, light is a big topic and I wanted to keep this one mostly to food/supplements. Maybe it calls for a part two with more details? (light, nutrient ratios, toxicity in the environment...) We'll see!
Also, highly recommend you check out his articles. I'll attach a clean pdf collection of his work to this message. It was put together by user PKreb0rn on Twitter.
Downloading it. Thanks a lot! Here is another pdf of use:
Ray Peat interviews with One Radio Network
Ray Peat has been on One Radio Network almost every month since January 2019. That is more than 40 interviews up until now (November 2022). A few months ago I noticed that I often remembered some quote or topic they had talked about, but wasn't able to remember the episode. So I decided to go...
Serge
Member
- Joined
- Sep 4, 2020
- Messages
- 179
Thank you guys for this wealth of information!
Downloading it. Thanks a lot! Here is another pdf of use:
Ray Peat interviews with One Radio Network
Ray Peat has been on One Radio Network almost every month since January 2019. That is more than 40 interviews up until now (November 2022). A few months ago I noticed that I often remembered some quote or topic they had talked about, but wasn't able to remember the episode. So I decided to go...raypeatforum.com
Awesome, thank you!
My pleasure! Thank you for reading.
jahniteige
New Member
Great post!
As someone who has been lurking this forum for a long time, as well as following a lot of twitter "RWBB" and esoteric health accounts, I figure this is a good place to ask some questions I think anyone new to Ray Peat, including myself, might wonder:
-How can saturated fatty acids boost metabolism, when most studies show that in fact PUFA speeds up metabolism, while apparently the opposite is true of SFA?
Effect of dietary fatty acid composition on substrate utilization and body weight maintenance in humans - PubMed
The effect of fat composition of the diet on energy metabolism - PubMed
-How can saturated fat combined with high carbohydrate intake be good, when studies generally show that it increases the incidence of fatty liver, insulin resistance, and cardiovascular problems?
Effects of Saturated Fat, Polyunsaturated Fat, Monounsaturated Fat, and Carbohydrate on Glucose-Insulin Homeostasis: A Systematic Review and Meta-analysis of Randomised Controlled Feeding Trials - PubMed
Saturated Fat Is More Metabolically Harmful for the Human Liver Than Unsaturated Fat or Simple Sugars
Overfeeding Polyunsaturated and Saturated Fat Causes Distinct Effects on Liver and Visceral Fat Accumulation in Humans
-Can the "non-fattening" effects of SFA be related to the hunger-suppressing effects of SFA compared to PUFA instead of a metabolism boost?
Comparing acute effects of extra virgin coconut oil and extra virgin olive oil consumption on appetite and food intake in normal-weight and obese male subjects - PubMed
I find Ray Peat intriguing, but no explanation for why these mainstream dietary findings could be wrong. Why do all these studies show harmful effects of SFA on energy metabolism and insulin when the claims made by Ray, as far as I understand, are the exact opposite? Is it the combination of SFA with something else in the mainstream diet that causes problems; e.g. PUFA, starch, lack of nutrients, etc. Could the claimed pro-metabolic effects from SFA, be effects that are seen in the longer term while avoiding certain foods and reducing the pro-oxidative effects from PUFAs?
As someone who has been lurking this forum for a long time, as well as following a lot of twitter "RWBB" and esoteric health accounts, I figure this is a good place to ask some questions I think anyone new to Ray Peat, including myself, might wonder:
-How can saturated fatty acids boost metabolism, when most studies show that in fact PUFA speeds up metabolism, while apparently the opposite is true of SFA?
Effect of dietary fatty acid composition on substrate utilization and body weight maintenance in humans - PubMed
The effect of fat composition of the diet on energy metabolism - PubMed
-How can saturated fat combined with high carbohydrate intake be good, when studies generally show that it increases the incidence of fatty liver, insulin resistance, and cardiovascular problems?
Effects of Saturated Fat, Polyunsaturated Fat, Monounsaturated Fat, and Carbohydrate on Glucose-Insulin Homeostasis: A Systematic Review and Meta-analysis of Randomised Controlled Feeding Trials - PubMed
Saturated Fat Is More Metabolically Harmful for the Human Liver Than Unsaturated Fat or Simple Sugars
Overfeeding Polyunsaturated and Saturated Fat Causes Distinct Effects on Liver and Visceral Fat Accumulation in Humans
-Can the "non-fattening" effects of SFA be related to the hunger-suppressing effects of SFA compared to PUFA instead of a metabolism boost?
Comparing acute effects of extra virgin coconut oil and extra virgin olive oil consumption on appetite and food intake in normal-weight and obese male subjects - PubMed
I find Ray Peat intriguing, but no explanation for why these mainstream dietary findings could be wrong. Why do all these studies show harmful effects of SFA on energy metabolism and insulin when the claims made by Ray, as far as I understand, are the exact opposite? Is it the combination of SFA with something else in the mainstream diet that causes problems; e.g. PUFA, starch, lack of nutrients, etc. Could the claimed pro-metabolic effects from SFA, be effects that are seen in the longer term while avoiding certain foods and reducing the pro-oxidative effects from PUFAs?
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First off, thank you!
Those are very good questions and echo a skepticism Peat would definitely encourage.
I may not be the most appropriate person to answer you, but here is my take:
When it comes to SFAs vs PUFAs, I should have probably clarified that it isn't that SFAs raise metabolism per se, but that by increasing SFA intake you displace PUFA intake. In this sense the ratio of SFA/PUFA is more important than the PUFA intake in isolation. I recall Peat, too, saying that, if PUFA intake were very low, there would be little to no reason to consume coconut oil.
Your first study is interested in high-fat diets (>40% of daily calories). On the main article I recommend around 10-20% of daily calories from fats, less than half of what the study looks at. It would be cool to read more about the study but I can only read the abstract and such, it seems. In any case, you will struggle to see "Peaters" advocating for a high fat + high carbohydrate diet. People like Danny Roddy, for example, drink skim milk precisely for this reason. Personally, I have tried high fat + high carb (drinking +3 L of sugary whole milk a day) and it made me gain quite a bit of weight quickly. This is something I wanted at the time (for gym-related reasons) but I switched to skim milk after (with similar calories) and have maintained weight effortlessly.
The second study also seems to look at high fat + high carb, but I agree that studying 6 males for 14 days is simply not enough.
It is true that some Peaters initially gain weight, as they switch to more Peat-inspired nutrition, but it is also true that this may not be necessarily be a bad thing. Wolfe, et al. noted that "the enhanced mobilization and oxidation of fat is one of the fundamental responses to stress" and that there was "little doubt that there are signals for the increased mobilization of fat [present] in shock, trauma, and sepsis. (Wolfe, R.R., et al., 1983).
To come back to my earlier point, the goal is not to eat plenty of SFAs nor to overfeed, but rather to become EFA-deficient ("Essential Fatty Acid" deficient); Peat:
Along these lines, a study on rats by Rafael J, et al., showed that "basal respiration in relation to the body weight is significantly increased by EFA deficiency" (Rafael J, et al., 1984).
Saturated fats also appear to protect against the detrimental effects of bacterial endotoxin, fortifying the intestinal barrier (Nanji, A.A., et al., 1997).
One of the main reasons why PUFAs inhibit metabolism in the long-term is that they mess with your thyroid hormone, by blocking enzymes necessary for thyroid hormone production (Tabachnick M, Korcek L., 1986), by blocking the proteins that transport said hormones (Fukusen N, Kido H, Katunuma N., 1985), by blocking T3 to T4 conversion (Chopra IJ, et al., 1985) and by blocking T3 receptors (Wiersinga WM, et al., 1988). You can find these studies linked here.
Although it is not the most beginner-friendly, I'd also recommend checking out @haidut 's summary of PUFAs here. He also shares many studies on his website, such as:
- Protein and saturated fats beneficial, PUFA detrimental for thyroid
- PUFA cause obesity, diabetes, autism, Alzheimer’s disease, anxiety, and depression
- Blocking PUFA/prostaglandins restores metabolism and reverses brain aging
- PUFA promote torpor / hibernation, decrease lifespan
- Inflammation (from PUFA), not telomeres, determines lifespan / healthspan
Finally, to get a thorough (though not "Peaty") collection of studies on PUFA, health and inflammation, you can check out this article and scroll down to "the forgotten ones" section.
I know I haven't gotten to all the studies you posted, but this is what I had time for at the moment.
mirnocaitan
Member
Very informative and excellent for newcomers. Thank you.
Kykeon
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in "Can art instruct science? William Blake as biological visionary" Ray Peat talks about generalization and how to stay active mentally. I think the philosophical aspect of rays work is often overlooked and that is tragic.
"When you believe that you have adequate, expert knowledge, a passive, logical, deductive form of mental activity seems appropriate. Deduction always goes from a higher level of generality to a lower level of generality. Mental passivity therefore is likely to be associated with the belief that we have the decisive knowledge already stored in memory. If we believe that we create higher degrees of generality, as appropriate solutions to novel problems, then we are committed to an active mental life. Perception, combined with the discovery and invention of new patterns in the world, will be actively oriented toward the future, while the deductive, merely analytical, manner of thought will be tied to the past."
"When you believe that you have adequate, expert knowledge, a passive, logical, deductive form of mental activity seems appropriate. Deduction always goes from a higher level of generality to a lower level of generality. Mental passivity therefore is likely to be associated with the belief that we have the decisive knowledge already stored in memory. If we believe that we create higher degrees of generality, as appropriate solutions to novel problems, then we are committed to an active mental life. Perception, combined with the discovery and invention of new patterns in the world, will be actively oriented toward the future, while the deductive, merely analytical, manner of thought will be tied to the past."
"Except for the dangers involved in committing a heresy, it is very easy to follow the implications of the system that one finds in one’s own mind, since self-assertion contains no principle of corrective contradiction. Essentially, rationalism consists of thinking something is true because you thought of it.
I think of the philosophical Rationalists as being the bureaucrats of the mind, making everything tedious and boring and repetitive. Eliminating Rationalism, then actual individualized full mental life can begin."
Great work!
I think of the philosophical Rationalists as being the bureaucrats of the mind, making everything tedious and boring and repetitive. Eliminating Rationalism, then actual individualized full mental life can begin."
Great work!
@Impero, where can I read more about this? Or about other livestock applications of PUFAs or SFAs?
Also, I'm still not clear on the mechanisms by which free radicals, or oxidants in general, cause damage?
Even on your substack, it's hard for me to figure out:
"When their double bonds break, the now-free and unstable molecules (called “free radicals”) freak out and try to either steal or give away an electron from any molecules around it to reach a stable state again. In the process, they wreak havoc to all their neighbors, and in their brief (but intense) lifetime can cause mutations to your DNA, resulting in things like heart disease or cancer."
Introduction to Bioenergetics (Appendix)
[1] A quick overview of how ATP is produced
It's just a bit vague, and I've had trouble finding out more of this from the usual sources of scientific literature, perhaps because it's considered so basic at this point.
The original experiment Peat often quotes about how pigs who ate coconut oil got leaner was from an older Encyclopedia Britannica article, I believe. You can find several articles about pig/livestock/mammal feed and their effects scattered in the awesome Fire in a Bottle blog. Here's a great summary/guide of some of his work, which I highly recommend because, coincidentally, Brad Marshall (the owner) has a ton of great more in-depth articles on oxidation and how it regulates metabolism. Honestly, I agree that my comment free radicals is very vague. It's by far the weakest part of the article IMO; it's hard to condense all info on PUFAs so much without sounding generic. Besides Brad, I recommend checking out Chris Masterjohn's course on the antioxidant system (he makes a great distinction between oxidative stress and oxidative damage). The first three lessons are free. I'm currently working on a much more extensive intro to Bioenergetics, but I'm only at the start of that journey so far (just 2 articles lol). Hope that helps man.@Impero, where can I read more about this? Or about other livestock applications of PUFAs or SFAs?
Also, I'm still not clear on the mechanisms by which free radicals, or oxidants in general, cause damage?
Even on your substack, it's hard for me to figure out:
"When their double bonds break, the now-free and unstable molecules (called “free radicals”) freak out and try to either steal or give away an electron from any molecules around it to reach a stable state again. In the process, they wreak havoc to all their neighbors, and in their brief (but intense) lifetime can cause mutations to your DNA, resulting in things like heart disease or cancer."
Introduction to Bioenergetics (Appendix)
[1] A quick overview of how ATP is producedimpero.notion.site
It's just a bit vague, and I've had trouble finding out more of this from the usual sources of scientific literature, perhaps because it's considered so basic at this point.
The article showing the fire tornado seems pretty good. The introduction to how oxygen and hydrogen interact with carbon is a good starting point, and I will read further.
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