Cistanche increases steroidogenic enzymes, lowers NO, helps osteoporosis and Alzheimer's

[Mauritio]

Fwiw, Life Extensions sells Cistanche tubulosa standardized extract in caps (210mg):

Standardized Cistanche, 30 vegetarian capsules - Life Extension

Life Extension’s Standardized Cistanche utilizes powerful plant extracts to promote longevity and provide support against immune senescence.

www.lifeextension.com

I think it's dosed very low. If you want to reach a threshold where there has been actual studies done , with success, than you'd have to take like 15-30pills every day .
On the other day I noticed effects from only 2 pills of the product I use , which comes down to 800mg .

 

[Soren]

At least it looks pretty similar. I would try you local kind first and then a version of well reputed seller after that , to make sure I get a good comparison.

Good advice, looking into it more it does seem to be the same family of plant with some slight variances the compounds of echinacoside and acteoside are the most abundant compounds in the plant which are the same beneficial compounds that are referenced in the paper of your initial posts.

 

[ReSTART]

I noticed some extracts are stems and others are roots. Is stems better? The studies seem to be stems mostly.

 

[Lokzo]

One of the many reasons why I like Cistanche.
+ it increases GDNF (Same as ibogaine).

 

[ReSTART]

What do you think of stems vs roots @Lokzo?

 

[Rave re-peat]

One of the many reasons why I like Cistanche.
+ it increases GDNF (Same as ibogaine).

What brand do you use?

 

[GenericName86]

What brand do you use?

The video has a link which is from lost empire herbs i believe but I don't know if that's what @Lokzo said he was using. From what I read about that company they seem pretty good.

 

[Mauritio]

This is the first human study I saw on cistanche, it has been well tolerated and improved some abilities for people with walking problems, although it didn't change muscle or fat mass .
Maybe because of the dosage:1,8g/day, which might have been a bit too low .
They also didnt measure steroid levels etc. .

https://www.google.de/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.mdpi.com/2072-6643/13/1/264/pdf&ved=2ahUKEwir4vXRidXuAhVI_aQKHcOGBpQQFjAAegQIARAB&usg=AOvVaw3NsHc4c6igMK8B3vY-R2CJ

 

[Mauritio]

In the above study they also link a chinese human study, where they take all kinds of measurements. Would be interesting if someone could translate that.

http://www.oryza.co.jp/pdf/japanese/cistanche%20tuburosa%20extract_j%202.0.pdf

 

[PandaPower]

肉苁蓉，is what we Chinese call. It's very commonly used in tcm. It's said that it will render help to improve sexual performance in males of impotence.

 

[Mauritio]

肉苁蓉，is what we Chinese call. It's very commonly used in tcm. It's said that it will render help to improve sexual performance in males of impotence.

Oh damn , you speak chinese ? This is a human study right ?
If you have the time , can you go through this and look up the before after effects of cistanche on steroids like testosterone or progesterone?

 

[ReSTART]

Maybe because of the dosage:1,8g/day, which might have been a bit too low .

What do you think is a good dose? 3-4g?

 

[Mauritio]

What do you think is a good dose? 3-4g?

2,5-5g per day .

 

[Mauritio]

So I've found some interesting things in the Japanese study (not Chinese)

Firstly they show a generell figure in which we can see which steroidal enzymes are affected by cistanche.

Here you can see that P450SSC, which is responsible for the conversion of cholesterol to pregnenolone is increased 6,5 fold!
5a-reductase 2 is increased 12 fold !
17a-hydroxylase is increased 2 fold ,which leads to more DHEA .
Finally 17b hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase ,which is implicated in the estrogen metabolism is also increased about 2,5 fold. But to make a conclusion you'd have to see which one exactly is increased .

Here they shows what cistanche does to 5a-reductase 1+2 in the testes of mice. It decreases 5a-reductase 1 about 40% and 5a-reductase 2 stays almost the same .

So this is why there uas been conflicting info on cistanche's effect on 5a-reductase. It increases 5a-reductase 2 about 12 fold (in the liver ?) And decreases version 1 in the testes about 40%.
So the question is if the net effect is still pro DHT /androgenic . Given its historical use, I'd say yes ,but its definitely something to keep in mind .

 

[Mauritio]

The question is what physiological effects will a drastic increase in 5a-reductase 2 in the liver and 0,4 reduction of version 1 in the testes have on the organism ?
They do occur in different organs .

"There are two 5α-reductase isoenzymes. The 5α-reductase-1 gene maps to the short arm of chromosome 5 band 15. In adulthood, it is expressed mainly in the liver and non-genital skin and is expressed in very low levels in the prostate, genital skin, and internal duct structures (1). The physiological function of type-1 isoenzyme in humans remains obscure, although there is limited evidence of a role in murine parturition (2). The 5α-reductase-2 gene is located on the short arm of chromosome 2 band 23. This gene’s enzyme product is expressed in high levels in the epididymides, seminal vesicles, prostate, genital skin and liver. It is the gene mutated in subjects with 5α-reductase-2 deficiency (3)."

5α-reductase-2 Deficiency’s Effect on Human Fertility

A most interesting and intriguing male disorder of sexual differentiation is due to 5α-reductase-2 isoenzyme deficiency. These males are born with ambiguous external genitalia due to a deficiency in their ability to catalyze the conversion of ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[GenericName86]

Pretty interesting stuff, I was thinking of trying it myself but as someone who has used fin in the past and had side effects I'm not sure how i feel about it after seeing the reduction in 5a-reductase 1

 

[Mauritio]

Pretty interesting stuff, I was thinking of trying it myself but as someone who has used fin in the past and had side effects I'm not sure how i feel about it after seeing the reduction in 5a-reductase 1

The net effect might still be pro DHT as it increases 5a-reductase 2 ,12 fold , so it might actually help with PFS.
Anyway I asked peat about his opinion on cistanche, and in particular the 5
a-reductase thing .

 

[Soren]

So I've found some interesting things in the Japanese study (not Chinese)

Firstly they show a generell figure in which we can see which steroidal enzymes are affected by cistanche.
View attachment 21561

Here you can see that P450SSC, which is responsible for the conversion of cholesterol to pregnenolone is increased 6,5 fold!
5a-reductase 2 is increased 12 fold !
17a-hydroxylase is increased 2 fold ,which leads to more DHEA .
Finally 17b hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase ,which is implicated in the estrogen metabolism is also increased about 2,5 fold. But to make a conclusion you'd have to see which one exactly is increased .
View attachment 21562

Here they shows what cistanche does to 5a-reductase 1+2 in the testes of mice. It decreases 5a-reductase 1 about 40% and 5a-reductase 2 stays almost the same .

So this is why there uas been conflicting info on cistanche's effect on 5a-reductase. It increases 5a-reductase 2 about 12 fold (in the liver ?) And decreases version 1 in the testes about 40%.
So the question is if the net effect is still pro DHT /androgenic . Given its historical use, I'd say yes ,but its definitely something to keep in mind .
View attachment 21563

Wow fascinating stuff. That 6.5 increase in cholesterol to pregnenolone conversion is impressive. Looking forward to hear what Ray says about the DHT effect.

 

[Mauritio]

Wow fascinating stuff. That 6.5 increase in cholesterol to pregnenolone conversion is impressive. Looking forward to hear what Ray says about the DHT effect.

Yeah with all this DHT-talk we shouldn't forget the other steroidogenic enzymes that cistanche increases .
The one that you mention is interesting, but also 17b hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase, which might increase E1 to E2 conversion. I doubt though, that the net effect is pro estrogenic, as some of the molecules contained in cistanche are anti-estrogenic and the enzyme also catalyzes androgenic reactions .
I will ask ray about that as a follow up question.
I wouldn't count on him responding though ...

​

"17β-Hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase (17β-HSD) controls the last step in the formation of all androgens and all estrogens. This crucial role of 17β-HSD is performed by at least five 17β-HSD isoenzymes having individual cell-specific expression, substrate specificity, regulation mechanisms, and reductive or oxidative catalytic activity. Both estrogenic and androgenic 17β-HSD activities were found in all 25 rhesus monkey and 15 human peripheral intracrine tissues examined. Type 1 17β-HSD is a protein of 327 amino acids catalyzing the formation of 17β-estradiol from estrone. Its x-ray structure was the first to be determined among mammalian steroidogenic enzymes. Initially crystallized with NAD, the crystal structure of type 1 17β-HSD has just been determined as a complex with 17β-estradiol, thereby illustrating the conformation of the substrate-binding site. Type 2 17β-HSD degrades 17β-estradiol into estrone and testosterone into androstenedione, and type 4 17β-HSD mainly degrades 17β-estradiol into estrone and androst-5-ene-3β, 17β-diol into dehydroepiandrosterone. Types 3 and 5 17β-HSD, on the other hand, catalyze the formation of testosterone from androstenedione in the testis and peripheral tissues, respectively. The various types of human 17β-HSD, because of their tissue-specific expression and substrate specificity, provide each peripheral cell with the necessary mechanisms to control the level of intracellular androgens and/or estrogens, a new area of hormonal control that we call intracrinology."

The key role of 17β-hydroxysteroid dehydrogenases in sex steroid biology

17β-Hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase (17β-HSD) controls the last step in the formation of all androgens and all estrogens. This crucial role of 17β-HSD is…

www.sciencedirect.com

 

[shine]

肉苁蓉，is what we Chinese call. It's very commonly used in tcm. It's said that it will render help to improve sexual performance in males of impotence.

哇，你是中国人吗？很高兴看到中国人对RP感兴趣!!