Caffeine is great but constantly pushes forward sleep cycle - what to do?

AnonE

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I love coffee, and Ray speaks highly of it too: Caffeine: A vitamin-like nutrient, or adaptogen. Questions about tea and coffee, cancer and other degenerative diseases, and the hormones.

I average 2-3 cups a day, which feels great. However I have a bit of an issue with my sleep cycle/rhythm. Basically when I drink coffee, I have to stay up later and later each day, because it's hard falling asleep. Then I get less and less sleep, assuming I try and keep my wake up time fixed. Then I get burned out and coffee doesn't seem worth it, so I have to do a multi-day detox to reset the sleep, during which obviously it feels like crap, feel lethargic, headaches, etc.

But I love coffee!

Any tips for keeping the sleep in check? Maybe I'm not tolerating it that well and it's staying in the system too long.

If coffee is so great why do I need to detox from it every few weeks to fix my sleep =(
Hoping I can fix this and continue to enjoy as much coffee as I want.
 

mrchibbs

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I love coffee, and Ray speaks highly of it too: Caffeine: A vitamin-like nutrient, or adaptogen. Questions about tea and coffee, cancer and other degenerative diseases, and the hormones.

I average 2-3 cups a day, which feels great. However I have a bit of an issue with my sleep cycle/rhythm. Basically when I drink coffee, I have to stay up later and later each day, because it's hard falling asleep. Then I get less and less sleep, assuming I try and keep my wake up time fixed. Then I get burned out and coffee doesn't seem worth it, so I have to do a multi-day detox to reset the sleep, during which obviously it feels like crap, feel lethargic, headaches, etc.

But I love coffee!

Any tips for keeping the sleep in check? Maybe I'm not tolerating it that well and it's staying in the system too long.

Caffeine affects GABA, and the ability to achieve deep sleep, so basically stopping caffeine at least 8hrs before before bed is the way to go.
 

AnonE

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Caffeine affects GABA, and the ability to achieve deep sleep, so basically stopping caffeine at least 8hrs before before bed is the way to go.

Yeah I've heard that, I try for 12 hrs before sleep to be my last sip, but it doesn't feel enough. I could up it to 14 maybe? Seems excessive, then I basically only get it right in the morning, and can't sip on it until lunch.
 

mrchibbs

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Yeah I've heard that, I try for 12 hrs before sleep to be my last sip, but it doesn't feel enough. I could up it to 14 maybe? Seems excessive, then I basically only get it right in the morning, and can't sip on it until lunch.

It could be possible, yeah. We're all different, so maybe experiment and figure out what works best to allow proper relaxation and inhibition at night.
 

lampofred

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I think if you have accumulated PUFA, iron, phosphate then caffeine increases wakefulness by increasing sensitivity to adrenaline, but once those are depleted it increases relaxation and can actually deepen sleep instead of keeping you up.

Lowering TSH with thyroid might accelerate the process of lowering the effect of adrenaline.
 

milkboi

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I think if you have accumulated PUFA, iron, phosphate then caffeine increases wakefulness by increasing sensitivity to adrenaline, but once those are depleted it increases relaxation and can actually deepen sleep instead of keeping you up.
No. Read up adenosine's function in regards to the sleep cycle, antagonizing it will lead to increased wakefulness.
 
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mrchibbs

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One thing you could try that is helping me very much with fixing my sleep cycle is taking 300 mcg of Melatonin 5 hours before your desired bed time.
Got this idea from here: Melatonin: Much More Than You Wanted To Know

Interesting. 300mcg is much less than conventional doses of 5mg-10mg

I personally experimented with 2.5mg from watching a few videos on youtube, with unclear benefits.

But I'm interested in trying out this approach.
 

milkboi

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Interesting. 300mcg is much less than conventional doses of 5mg-10mg

I personally experimented with 2.5mg from watching a few videos on youtube, with unclear benefits.

But I'm interested in trying out this approach.

Yeah, I think that's because Melatonin is extremely cheap and supplement companies use those higher doses for marketing purpose based on the human bias of more being always better. In studies, 300 mcg performed at least as good as moderately higher doses (like 1-2 mg) and outperformed megadoses like 5-10 mg or even more every time. Anyways, I'm interested in your experience with this approach chibbs. :): Life extension has a good 300 mcg product that I currently use.
 

Perry Staltic

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I sometimes sip and spit simply to get the taste and avoid too much caffeine (still get a slight head buzz from gum absorption), or microsip where it takes several hours to finish one cup.
 

AnonE

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Hmm, regarding melatonin, I've always been wary of the stuff, at least continual use, because it's a natural (stress?) hormone.


"Ray has written about the dangers of melatonin, but there is enough contradictory research to confuse people. This study shows that another pineal hormone, which ALWAYS rises together with melatonin strongly inhibits steroid synthesis. "

However anecdotally melatonin has been helpful while traveling in the past. But reading stuff like this a few years ago I swore off the stuff completely.
 

milkboi

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Hmm, regarding melatonin, I've always been wary of the stuff, at least continual use, because it's a natural (stress?) hormone.


"Ray has written about the dangers of melatonin, but there is enough contradictory research to confuse people. This study shows that another pineal hormone, which ALWAYS rises together with melatonin strongly inhibits steroid synthesis. "

However anecdotally melatonin has been helpful while traveling in the past. But reading stuff like this a few years ago I swore off the stuff completely.
Yes, it's good to be careful with it, I agree. But a bad circadian rhythm and sleep are arguably worse for steroidogenesis plus if you are taking a physiological amount, maybe it's actually a non-problem.
 

AnonE

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Yes, it's good to be careful with it, I agree. But a bad circadian rhythm and sleep are arguably worse for steroidogenesis plus if you are taking a physiological amount, maybe it's actually a non-problem.

What dosage would you recommend? For e.g. 170lbs adult male

Edit - and yeah, lack of sleep is arguably the worse evil. However I've heard this argument from some weed-smokers, which I think is absolutely not a good idea. But I reckon small dose melatonin would be safer and healthier.
 

milkboi

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What dosage would you recommend? For e.g. 170lbs adult male

Edit - and yeah, lack of sleep is arguably the worse evil. However I've heard this argument from some weed-smokers, which I think is absolutely not a good idea. But I reckon small dose melatonin would be safer and healthier.
300 mcg seems to be the sweet spot. I think the 200-500 mcg range can be considered "close enough to physiological"

Yeah for sure, the risk with melatonin seems much lower than with weed. Doubt you could do any lasting damage with Melatonin. Also, why waste a good high sleeping lol?
 

bogbody

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theanine always does the trick for me when i have extra coffee and can’t sleep
 

redsun

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I love coffee, and Ray speaks highly of it too: Caffeine: A vitamin-like nutrient, or adaptogen. Questions about tea and coffee, cancer and other degenerative diseases, and the hormones.

I average 2-3 cups a day, which feels great. However I have a bit of an issue with my sleep cycle/rhythm. Basically when I drink coffee, I have to stay up later and later each day, because it's hard falling asleep. Then I get less and less sleep, assuming I try and keep my wake up time fixed. Then I get burned out and coffee doesn't seem worth it, so I have to do a multi-day detox to reset the sleep, during which obviously it feels like crap, feel lethargic, headaches, etc.

But I love coffee!

Any tips for keeping the sleep in check? Maybe I'm not tolerating it that well and it's staying in the system too long.

If coffee is so great why do I need to detox from it every few weeks to fix my sleep =(
Hoping I can fix this and continue to enjoy as much coffee as I want.
Caffeine is a dopaminergic, adrenergic agonist, serotonin antagonist. It also activates histaminergic neurons. All this together can cause insomnia if your catecholamines are high and your serotonin is also lowish. You clearly do not need it thats why sleep is basically impossible to get right when you consume it. You need to go at a low enough dose or have to just avoid it all together. Its uncommon but some people really cannot do stimulants. If you can ideally its best not to take any stimulants anyway.
 

AnonE

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Caffeine is a dopaminergic, adrenergic agonist, serotonin antagonist. It also activates histaminergic neurons. All this together can cause insomnia if your catecholamines are high and your serotonin is also lowish. You clearly do not need it thats why sleep is basically impossible to get right when you consume it. You need to go at a low enough dose or have to just avoid it all together. Its uncommon but some people really cannot do stimulants. If you can ideally its best not to take any stimulants anyway.
I do consume a bunch of supplements that are supposed to lower serotonin according this forum. Perhaps make sure those are taken early in day / lower quantities.

And yeah I'll back the amounts I suppose.
 

Jasjeet

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i would reduce and forget adding supplements....i have been experimenting with caffeine since peating, and really the most I can take without messing up my sleep is one one espresso/macchiato in the morning, with food. trust me, much better sleep is worth it! you can always have decaf in the afternoon
 

PTP

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Caffeine stays in my system a long time too, if I have a 4pm espresso I’ll still be awake at 4am. Then I realised I can counter the effects of afternoon coffee with glycine before bed, but it does require a large dose - 1-2 tablespoons semi-heaped - I estimate that’s between 10-20 grams, 2 tablespoons works great for sports recovery too
 
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