Coffee,Caffiene, & Panic Attacks

[sele]

Caffeine increases glycogen demand.
Low glycogen leads to high adrenaline and panic attacks.
@MSH Vitamin B2 and famotidine will help to increase glycogen storage.
Result: Better caffeine tolerance. :)
Happy peating.

PS: Green tea is estrogenic.

 

[DaveFoster]

I never would have thought of sugar as being health promoting, not in a million years! But, I am definitely open to all I thought I knew about nutrition being wrong. Time to do my n=1 with this material.

I hate to give up things like my salmon, sardines, and avocados, luckily it doesn't look like I have to give up my oysters .

What are few examples of the worst starches I should avoid? What should I replace these calories with?

Thanks!

Grains, legumes, and nuts should be avoided. Calories depends on the individual. Some do better on more fat, some on starch, and some on sugar. Peat eats a lot of sugar from milk and fruit.

 

[MSH]

Caffeine increases glycogen demand.
Low glycogen leads to high adrenaline and panic attacks.
@MSH Vitamin B2 and famotidine will help to increase glycogen storage.
Result: Better caffeine tolerance. :)
Happy peating.

PS: Green tea is estrogenic.

Thanks sele! I have never heard of famotidine. I will need to look into this. I did not know that green tea was estrogenic, thanks for the heads up on that. Is the fact that caffeine increases glycogen demand a good reason to have coffee with a lot of sugar?

 

[MSH]

Grains, legumes, and nuts should be avoided. Calories depends on the individual. Some do better on more fat, some on starch, and some on sugar. Peat eats a lot of sugar from milk and fruit.

What would be some good examples of some Peat approved starches?

 

[sele]

Thanks sele! I have never heard of famotidine. I will need to look into this. I did not know that green tea was estrogenic, thanks for the heads up on that. Is the fact that caffeine increases glycogen demand a good reason to have coffee with a lot of sugar?

You're welcome.
famotidine-increases-glycogen

Yes, caffeine should be taken after a meal with lots of sugar.
If it still gives you stress/panic, stay away till you are able to improve your hepatic glycogen storage.
It took me a while.

 

[MSH]

You're welcome.
famotidine-increases-glycogen

Yes, caffeine should be taken after a meal with lots of sugar.
If it still gives you stress/panic, stay away till you are able to improve your hepatic glycogen storage.
It took me a while.

Thanks again sele! What does it tell you in that my panic attacks didn't start until I stopped all caffeine cold turkey, and they started almost immediately? It took about two years before I wasn't having them everyday. I stopped caffeine about four 1/2 years ago. Early on if I accidentally consumed something with caffeine I'd have a more severe PA within about three days, like one time I thought the root beer I was drinking was caffeine free but it wasn't. I have recently started drinking a decaf coffee but am very nervous about introducing caffeine back into my system.

Thanks for your input!

 

[sele]

Thanks again sele! What does it tell you in that my panic attacks didn't start until I stopped all caffeine cold turkey, and they started almost immediately? It took about two years before I wasn't having them everyday. I stopped caffeine about four 1/2 years ago. Early on if I accidentally consumed something with caffeine I'd have a more severe PA within about three days, like one time I thought the root beer I was drinking was caffeine free but it wasn't. I have recently started drinking a decaf coffee but am very nervous about introducing caffeine back into my system.

Thanks for your input!

Low metabolism is notorious for impairing liver glycogen storage.
It can also cause NAFLD (fatty liver).
In times of energy demand, the liver is unable to supply the needed fuel.
Resulting in cellular stress.

Your caffeine intake was either helping with glucose oxidation or it was making you run on adrenaline.
The 'crutch' was taken away when you quit.
What were you eating when you quit caffeine?
Did you have at least 200g of sugar/fructose in your diet?
How was your sleep at the time?
Are you taking any supplements?
Were you engaged in strenuous workouts?
All health problems are systemic and the whole lifestyle should be looked at.

 

[MSH]

Low metabolism is notorious for impairing liver glycogen storage.
It can also cause NAFLD (fatty liver).
In times of energy demand, the liver is unable to supply the needed fuel.
Resulting in cellular stress.

Your caffeine intake was either helping with glucose oxidation or it was making you run on adrenaline.
The 'crutch' was taken away when you quit.
What were you eating when you quit caffeine?
Did you have at least 200g of sugar/fructose in your diet?
How was your sleep at the time?
Are you taking any supplements?
Were you engaged in strenuous workouts?
All health problems are systemic and the whole lifestyle should be looked at.

That makes good sense concerning the caffeine. I am concerned about having fatty liver disease. Now, I'm not much of a drinker but on occasion when I have had some wine or beer I do not feel well for a few days afterwards, and this even with a small amount of alcohol.

Now for about a year and a half before quitting caffeine my diet was vegan with a lot of juicing. Before this I am sure I consumed 200g of sugar. I was training and/or teaching MMA and the like most everyday. My sleep was and is pretty poor, maybe 4-6 hours on average and I would often go a night without any sleep on a regular basis. My problem was/is just getting sleepy in the evenings. I have taken many supplements but I am not sure what all I may have been taking at that time.

Though I do want to get back to some regular exercise I don't intend on getting back to anything near as intense as what I was doing before. I value longevity over sports performance these days. My main goals now are: longevity, healthy movement, stable energy, and improve my cognitive abilities for study and work.

Thanks again sele for helping me with this.

 

[Deleted member 5487]

As others have stated. It's a form of reactive hypoglycemia. Cut the coffee in half, add sugar and low fat milk.

I drank coffee for the first time two weeks ago and thought I was going schizophrenic and paniced.

 

[MSH]

As others have stated. It's a form of reactive hypoglycemia. Cut the coffee in half, add sugar and low fat milk.

I drank coffee for the first time two weeks ago and thought I was going schizophrenic and paniced.

Thanks Amarsh213!

 

[sele]

my diet was vegan with a lot of juicing.

Indicates a diet low in protein.
Minimum of 80g of protein is required for proper hormonal and metabolic processes.

Caffeine intolerance is a sign of poor liver function.
I would back off caffeine/coffee for now and focus on nutrition.

 

[DaveFoster]

What would be some good examples of some Peat approved starches?

Ray Peat, PhD – Concerns with Starches – Functional Performance Systems (FPS)

Ray Peat - Sugar vs. Starch - 180 Degree Health

 

[MSH]

Ray Peat, PhD – Concerns with Starches – Functional Performance Systems (FPS)

Ray Peat - Sugar vs. Starch - 180 Degree Health

Thanks!

 

[flying_sloth77]

@MSH - Glad you found the info useful!

So, starches is kind of complicated since I've found a lot more "rules of thumb" regarding starches than any kind of hard good/bad list. I haven't found a good way to simplify the information, it really feels like there are a lot of if/thens/buts. Overall, if you have lots of room for extra calories, I feel like most of the writing points to keep eating more of the approved fruits and low-fat dairy, as the information about starches (most of all wheat) are mostly lukewarm regarding health benefits for people who are hypothyroid. I don't think he's anti-starch, it really depends on the source and your health goal.

The biggest rule of thumb is that starch needs to be accompanied with the appropriate fat and also that if you eat protein, you should also have some kind of sugar with that in order to help with digestion, and maximize benefits of whatever you ate. I think most meat marinades have added sweetener, so paired with potatoes would be a solid meal, but not necessarily one that is optimized for weight loss.

I've noticed a lot of people on this forum writing about weirdly restrictive "Peat" diets that consist of ice cream, OJ, milk, coffee, aspirin, thyroid supplement, and complaining about feeling ill. No clue on if they're eating pure ice cream with no carageenan that is made from the milk of grass-fed cows, and pure orange juice that has no added citric acid and is organic, etc, but I feel like that kind of limited diet goes against so much of the evidence he presents in his writing.

++ Edited this post while researching and trying to write up a grocery list and basically all pre-processed foods are completely out. Also, look up Joey Lott and toxinless.com, apparently the former has a book that helps break down Peat, not sure how good it is. Toxinless has some helpful posts on good orange juice and good dairy brands. It might be just as easy to buy a dairy cow and just start juicing oranges at home.

Potatoes
Generally fine to eat, according to Peat, as long as it's cooked and accompanied with fat+dairy, unless you have some issue digesting foods from the nightshade group. I think he favors potatoes and root vegetables as starch sources over others, but this is based on the individual and just something to balance out with other sources of sugar.

Corn
Corn or corn-based products aren't necessarily bad because of the starch. However, Peat has mentioned that corn is more allergenic, which is worth avoiding if you're not sure if you tolerate corn well. Also, anything that is highly processed or had a lot of pesticides could have a plethora of endocrine disrupting side-effects, corn is one of those things, especially in the U.S. On the plus side, some other corn products, he does approve:

"In 1979 some of my students in Mexico wanted a project to do in the lab. Since several traditional foods are made with corn that has been boiled in alkali, I thought it would be valuable to see whether this treatment reduced the ability of the starch grains to be persorbed. For breakfast one day, they ate only atole, tamales, and tortillas, all made from the alkali treated corn. None of the students could find any starch grains after centrifuging their blood and urine. That led me to substitute those foods whenever possible for other starches." Ref​

Bread/Wheat Products
Same bit about insulin resistance, as with any other starchy food. Also, bread that has been through a long leavening process is going to be much better than a quick-bread or a manufactured bread from the store where the processing method is unknown. He mentions gluten in the same thought as chitinase, and briefly touches on modern agricultural methods in the second paragraph.

I haven't seen much more from him, but some googling and reading from celiac-friendly websites enlightened me on a couple things. I never knew gluten was actually a family of proteins. Different kinds of wheat will have different composition of proteins, some might be more problematic than others. Or maybe it's the ATIs. Whatever it is, there's something in most wheat that is problematic and potentially inflammatory. Ref

I have plans to experiment with baking some of the fermented sour-dough and long-leavening types of breads to have once in a while, since supposedly those are generally better tolerated, and have less gluten. I also love bread, but need to lose ~10 more pounds so will be keeping consumption to a minimum, and if so, homemade only.

"One of many substances produced by plants in response to injury is chitinase, an enzyme that breaks down chitin, a polysaccharide that is a structural component of fungi and insects. Chitinase, which is produced by bacteria and humans, as well as by plants and other organisms, is involved in developmental processes as well as in the innate immune system. In plants, the enzyme is induced by ethylene and salicylate, in animals by estrogen, light damage, and infections, and can be demonstrated in polyps and cancers.

The two main classes of plant allergens are the stress-induced chitinases, and seed storage proteins, such as gluten. The chitinase allergens are responsible for reactions to latex (which is secreted by rubber trees in reaction to a wound), bananas, avocados, many other fruits and vegetables, and some types of wood and other plant materials. Intensive agricultural methods are increasing the formation of the defensive chemicals, and the industrialized crops are responsible for the great majority of the new allergies that have appeared in the last 30 years."​

Other Stuff:

Serotonin:
May be worth avoiding foods high in serotonin? I think bananas are mentioned by Ray in the email exchange wiki (see link below)

"Hypothyroidism is characterized by increased levels of both noradrenalin and serotonin, and of other stress-related hormones, including cortisol and estrogen." Ref​

Extras:
Ray Peat Email Exchanges - Ray Peat Forum Wiki

• Some decent tidbits in the link above with his email responses to people on certain topics. Not as thorough as his full articles/newsletters, but there is a diet section that condenses his dietary recommendations.

Ray Peat Diet, Food Choices, And General Guidelines

• Decent guidelines on food choices. Worth comparing against personal cravings and resulting side effects in a food diary to help weed out intolerances

 

[InChristAlone]

I don't understand why people are telling you to work on your liver to tolerate caffeine You clearly stated a few times you didn't have a problem with caffeine there was only a problem upon cessation. In that case I think caffeine was acting as a thyroid surrogate. Haduit talks about this.

 

[pboy]

I don't understand why people are telling you to work on your liver to tolerate caffeine You clearly stated a few times you didn't have a problem with caffeine there was only a problem upon cessation. In that case I think caffeine was acting as a thyroid surrogate. Haduit talks about this.

yea that's usually what ive realized is the case with coffee, caffeine ect, people say they have 'withdrawals, intestines sluggish, headache or spacy' when they quit drinking caffeine and blame it on a withdrawal effect, but in fact they are hypothyroid and the caffeine was actually supporting their metabolism. But what I wrote earlier, this is good (caffeine if need it), better in most cases than being hypo and just being sluggish, but if relying on xanthines (caffeine, theobromine, theophylline, ect), the energy can be there but it will be a bit more shaky, or not seeming 100% synched, kind of flying, not total stable type (if situation pushes you at all), where as using xanthines while already having adequate thyroid...you can consume much more and have that happen less likely. But yea...thyroid is a big factor in blood brain flow, intestinal function, digestion, salivation, drive, and things...so the way people that are hypothyroid feel when they quit caffeine is really just the reality of their situation, not caffeines fault...when or since having adequate thyroid I haven't craved much xanthines, as soon as ive tweaked things (learned over the years) and thyroid went to inadequate, the craving for coffee, tea, ect, goes way up like clearly and decisively, obviously...its basically an indicator or barometer of thyroid status...the rare exception which has also happened is if you crave coffee for example for the b vitamins or minerals, in which case you might crave coffee but not tea, or vice versa, depending on the nutrient. And with adequate thyroid and not craving much xanthines, a bit helps or is fun or kind of tastes good but ill do maybe the equiv of 1-2 cups rather than the 8-10 or however much when hypothyroid, and vary it more between types for the variety of flavors and vibes, not like chugging coffee or kind of fixing on it as happens when hypothyroid, and if don't consume any for a day or however long theres no drop off at all in terms energy focus or anything, digestion or any of that

 

[MSH]

@MSH - Glad you found the info useful!

So, starches is kind of complicated since I've found a lot more "rules of thumb" regarding starches than any kind of hard good/bad list. I haven't found a good way to simplify the information, it really feels like there are a lot of if/thens/buts. Overall, if you have lots of room for extra calories, I feel like most of the writing points to keep eating more of the approved fruits and low-fat dairy, as the information about starches (most of all wheat) are mostly lukewarm regarding health benefits for people who are hypothyroid. I don't think he's anti-starch, it really depends on the source and your health goal.

The biggest rule of thumb is that starch needs to be accompanied with the appropriate fat and also that if you eat protein, you should also have some kind of sugar with that in order to help with digestion, and maximize benefits of whatever you ate. I think most meat marinades have added sweetener, so paired with potatoes would be a solid meal, but not necessarily one that is optimized for weight loss.

I've noticed a lot of people on this forum writing about weirdly restrictive "Peat" diets that consist of ice cream, OJ, milk, coffee, aspirin, thyroid supplement, and complaining about feeling ill. No clue on if they're eating pure ice cream with no carageenan that is made from the milk of grass-fed cows, and pure orange juice that has no added citric acid and is organic, etc, but I feel like that kind of limited diet goes against so much of the evidence he presents in his writing.

++ Edited this post while researching and trying to write up a grocery list and basically all pre-processed foods are completely out. Also, look up Joey Lott and toxinless.com, apparently the former has a book that helps break down Peat, not sure how good it is. Toxinless has some helpful posts on good orange juice and good dairy brands. It might be just as easy to buy a dairy cow and just start juicing oranges at home.

Potatoes
Generally fine to eat, according to Peat, as long as it's cooked and accompanied with fat+dairy, unless you have some issue digesting foods from the nightshade group. I think he favors potatoes and root vegetables as starch sources over others, but this is based on the individual and just something to balance out with other sources of sugar.

Corn
Corn or corn-based products aren't necessarily bad because of the starch. However, Peat has mentioned that corn is more allergenic, which is worth avoiding if you're not sure if you tolerate corn well. Also, anything that is highly processed or had a lot of pesticides could have a plethora of endocrine disrupting side-effects, corn is one of those things, especially in the U.S. On the plus side, some other corn products, he does approve:

"In 1979 some of my students in Mexico wanted a project to do in the lab. Since several traditional foods are made with corn that has been boiled in alkali, I thought it would be valuable to see whether this treatment reduced the ability of the starch grains to be persorbed. For breakfast one day, they ate only atole, tamales, and tortillas, all made from the alkali treated corn. None of the students could find any starch grains after centrifuging their blood and urine. That led me to substitute those foods whenever possible for other starches." Ref​

Bread/Wheat Products
Same bit about insulin resistance, as with any other starchy food. Also, bread that has been through a long leavening process is going to be much better than a quick-bread or a manufactured bread from the store where the processing method is unknown. He mentions gluten in the same thought as chitinase, and briefly touches on modern agricultural methods in the second paragraph.

I haven't seen much more from him, but some googling and reading from celiac-friendly websites enlightened me on a couple things. I never knew gluten was actually a family of proteins. Different kinds of wheat will have different composition of proteins, some might be more problematic than others. Or maybe it's the ATIs. Whatever it is, there's something in most wheat that is problematic and potentially inflammatory. Ref

I have plans to experiment with baking some of the fermented sour-dough and long-leavening types of breads to have once in a while, since supposedly those are generally better tolerated, and have less gluten. I also love bread, but need to lose ~10 more pounds so will be keeping consumption to a minimum, and if so, homemade only.

"One of many substances produced by plants in response to injury is chitinase, an enzyme that breaks down chitin, a polysaccharide that is a structural component of fungi and insects. Chitinase, which is produced by bacteria and humans, as well as by plants and other organisms, is involved in developmental processes as well as in the innate immune system. In plants, the enzyme is induced by ethylene and salicylate, in animals by estrogen, light damage, and infections, and can be demonstrated in polyps and cancers.

The two main classes of plant allergens are the stress-induced chitinases, and seed storage proteins, such as gluten. The chitinase allergens are responsible for reactions to latex (which is secreted by rubber trees in reaction to a wound), bananas, avocados, many other fruits and vegetables, and some types of wood and other plant materials. Intensive agricultural methods are increasing the formation of the defensive chemicals, and the industrialized crops are responsible for the great majority of the new allergies that have appeared in the last 30 years."​

Other Stuff:

Serotonin:
May be worth avoiding foods high in serotonin? I think bananas are mentioned by Ray in the email exchange wiki (see link below)

"Hypothyroidism is characterized by increased levels of both noradrenalin and serotonin, and of other stress-related hormones, including cortisol and estrogen." Ref​

Extras:
Ray Peat Email Exchanges - Ray Peat Forum Wiki

• Some decent tidbits in the link above with his email responses to people on certain topics. Not as thorough as his full articles/newsletters, but there is a diet section that condenses his dietary recommendations.

Ray Peat Diet, Food Choices, And General Guidelines

• Decent guidelines on food choices. Worth comparing against personal cravings and resulting side effects in a food diary to help weed out intolerances

Thanks FS_77! Great info! I appreciate your time and knowledge!

 

[MSH]

I don't understand why people are telling you to work on your liver to tolerate caffeine You clearly stated a few times you didn't have a problem with caffeine there was only a problem upon cessation. In that case I think caffeine was acting as a thyroid surrogate. Haduit talks about this.

Hey Janelle525! Yea, I was wondering if I wasn't making myself clear in that or if I was simply misunderstanding the advice given, probably a little of both perhaps :) ? I realize that I have much to learn so I'm finding all of it fascinating and hopefully my practice of this knowledge will prove to improve my health.

But yes, it wasn't until I totally stopped caffeine that my health fell apart, especially with regards to the panic attacks. But, even small trace amounts of caffeine, especially during the first two years would cause me to have panic. So, I think some of the other comments may prove useful in explaining why that was/is. I had wondered, since the hypothyroid hypothesis, if perhaps when having small amounts of caffeine, causing me to feel good intitially only to crash with panic soon afterwards ( usually within 3 days), was possibly a swing to improved thyroid function to a sudden rebound drop in function? My doctors certainly never could figure it out. Best they could tell me was that it was all in my head so take this pill, or that I was self medicating with the caffeine but they didn't know how it was working.

Is it possible that my goiter and nodules grew to the point of noticing it when I stopped the caffeine in order to improve the function of my thyroid? Will a Peat approach to eating shrink my goiter? Is low dose iodine helpful?

Thanks,

-MSH

 

[MSH]

Ok, I think I'm having some problems with the OJ and ice cream. It looks like it has caused me some blood sugar problems and my blood pressure has shot up. Any ideas as to what I'm doing wrong?

Thanks,

-MSH

 

[flying_sloth77]

Curious to know what else you ate? Might be helpful to share what a day's intake looks like. Also, overall are you feeling better/worse? And are you tracking your blood sugar with finger pricks or just noticing energy crashes?

Sorry to bring this up again, but you mentioned a goiter in your earlier post. Did that get taken care of or resolve on its own? If it's still there, they can do an ultrasound of your thyroid gland to see if it's just enlarged, or if there are nodules, etc. I know you mentioned that your thyroid labs are normal, but did they do more than the TSH? Your goiter could be caused by an autoimmune thyroid issue such as Grave's disease or Hashimoto's disease (amongst other things), doctor should check your blood for TPOab and TGab antibodies.