Coffee,Caffiene, & Panic Attacks

[MSH]

Curious to know what else you ate? Might be helpful to share what a day's intake looks like. Also, overall are you feeling better/worse? And are you tracking your blood sugar with finger pricks or just noticing energy crashes?

Sorry to bring this up again, but you mentioned a goiter in your earlier post. Did that get taken care of or resolve on its own? If it's still there, they can do an ultrasound of your thyroid gland to see if it's just enlarged, or if there are nodules, etc. I know you mentioned that your thyroid labs are normal, but did they do more than the TSH? Your goiter could be caused by an autoimmune thyroid issue such as Grave's disease or Hashimoto's disease (amongst other things), doctor should check your blood for TPOab and TGab antibodies.

Hey FS_77!
Thanks for bringing it again!
It has been a little over a year since I got my goiter looked at. There have been times where it seemed like it completely disappeard and there have been times where it has given me a slight choking feeling. I'm not sure what has caused the ebb and flow in size. There were a few non-toxic nodules that were too small for a biopsy. My doc didn't seem too concerned about it. I don't remember having TPOab or TGab being taken, but I'd have to find my paper work. It seems like T3, T 4, RevT3, and TSH was tested. I did take 225mcg of iodine for a while and I think it helped? But, I got nervous about taking it too long and quit.

I guess it's been about a week since I've added in some OJ, ice cream, and milk. I also cut out my daily sardines and avocados too limit PUFAS. Initially I was feeling better for sure. But, yesterday and today has been a little scary. I didn't have anything to check my sugar at first, I was just basing on how I was feeling from previous bouts of hypoglycemia. I have sense checked my sugar a few times and it doesn't look too bad, my blood pressure is still elevated however.

Upon further reflection about this weekend I do see where I made a few mistakes. For one, I wasn't staying hydrated well enough. I also don't think I had enough protein. I did have some milk, OJ, and some ice cream before bed, but I missed dinner Saturday night and only had milk and OJ for BF Sunday. I did have some OJ buy itself a few times too.

Also, for the past week my BM's have changed. Initially the stools were loose. I was also having more BM's as well. Now they have firmed up but are a very lite tan color.I also have had a lot of bloating and gas. All of this has clearly been a result of the dietary changes I've made the last week.

Thanks for your time FS_77!

-MSH

 

[achillea]

I have heard many times on Ask the Herb Doctor that Dr. Peat likes coffee because of the magnesium content amongst other things. It basically has no magnesium. Is there something I am missing. Where do we get magnesium in the Peat diet if not in Coffee?

 

[sele]

I have heard many times on Ask the Herb Doctor that Dr. Peat likes coffee because of the magnesium content amongst other things. It basically has no magnesium. Is there something I am missing. Where do we get magnesium in the Peat diet if not in Coffee?

8 oz of coffee has about 7mg of magnesium.
If you want more you can make some magnesium bicarbonate water.
Or just boil some kale and drink only the water from it.
Or bathe in epsom salt.

 

[achillea]

8 oz of coffee has about 7mg of magnesium.
If you want more you can make some magnesium bicarbonate water.
Or just boil some kale and drink only the water from it.
Or bathe in epsom salt.

In the East West interview Dr. Ray Peat: But the coffee contains a lot of good things besides the caffeine. It's an extremely concentrated source of magnesium and a very good source of niacin and some of the other B vitamins

Extremely concentrated source of magnesium. Is it like the hidden protein in potatoe. Does anyone understand how 7mg is concentrated magnesium?

 

[achillea]

Is it true that no one knows how coffee could be a concentrated form of magnesium?

 

[sele]

In the East West interview Dr. Ray Peat: But the coffee contains a lot of good things besides the caffeine. It's an extremely concentrated source of magnesium and a very good source of niacin and some of the other B vitamins

Extremely concentrated source of magnesium. Is it like the hidden protein in potatoe. Does anyone understand how 7mg is concentrated magnesium?

Are you looking for more magnesium?
Or are you looking for where RP is wrong?

 

[achillea]

I am looking for how am I getting enough magnesium in the Ray Peat diet. I cannot understand how he says this about coffee and I have heard Andrew bring magnesium and coffee up over and over, Are we missing something? Do we need to take extra magnesium?

 

[tara]

MSH

Any thoughts on why the panic started suddenly by the cessation of caffeine? Also, even now if I have too much caffeine within about three days later after stopping I will have panic.

I don't get panic attacks, but I do seem to get energy-related crashes later if I drink coffee, even just small quantities.

Speculation: The coffee or caffeine was helping your cells produce energy and CO2. When you stopped the coffee, you produced less CO2. This set you up to be vulnerable to panic attacks. I don't think it works the same as thyroid, but it can stimulate energy metabolism in the short term. If I were you, I' try to see what you can do about improving your energy balance by other means - eg food etc - and if you can't face skipping the coffee athen maybe see if it works for you to have very small amounts of coffee - just enough to stave off the worse symptoms. I find even 1/2 cup of decaf has enough in it to affect me.

Curious, but what does your diet look like now that you aren't vegan?

+1 And how much are you eating (approx calories) - unless I missed it?

Have you gotten any blood tests? Have you checked your temps and pulse?

+1

Sounds like a metabolism that has deregulated due to insufficient energy intake, a high-stress lifestyle and thus unopposed stress hormones. The coffee is the final piece of the jigsaw; throwing you 'over the edge'.

+1

Plus, I am dealing with a nagging SI joint issue that won't seem to heal ( I'm wondering if your suggestion about upping calories will help here?)

I had some very slow healing injuries that eventually recovered after a year of eating more and exercising less, including one that was in or around the SI. Healing takes energy beyond just regular maintenance.
Personally, small frequent meals including some potatoes or rice or other starchy foods and a bit of protein along with fruit or other sweet stuff for snacks seems to help keep my energy levels up best at the moment. But Peat is more favourably disposed towards sugars than starches, so that's another route you can try and see what balance works best for you you. If you are lucky, your tastes will guide you on how much sugar you can use. Consider trying intervals of no more than 3 hours between food, maybe more often, and not too long between waking and breakfast, and supper and sleep.

I do have concerns myself about this way of eating leading to diabetes or cancer or something else horrible. I know this may be because this goes against all I thought was true about healthy nutrition and I am just ignorant of research that proves other wise.

f you have been deprived for a long time, your system may have adapted in ways that make it less able to handle a sudden large increase in carbs. You may need to make changes gradually. There is no guarantee that all damage can be undone, but I there is a good chance that you can get significant improvement.

My wife brought up something last night that I hadn't really thought about. She reminded me that when I was at my most active level in my training that I ate a lot of calories, and a lot of those caleries were fruit and dairy! It was upon reading a lot of literature on what was supposed to be the 'healthiest' way to eat that I started changing up how I always used to eat. Heck, maybe I had it pretty close to right before?

:)

It's hard for me to believe that I was healthier eating all that sugar, but the hard evidence is that I was, at least from a stress and performance measurement. But, is this healthy fas far as longevity is concerned? I would like to understand this better.

My current take on this is that the problem is not much that sugar itself is harmful, as a problem of missing all the other nutrients that we need to get with it. The ones you get from ripe fruit etc, like potassium, magnesium etc. Some refined sucrose is probably fine if you are getting lots of micronutrients from other foods, but I'd be cautious about making it a major staple.

I never would have thought of sugar as being health promoting, not in a million years! But, I am definitely open to all I thought I knew about nutrition being wrong.

It's a shocker, isn't it? :)

I hate to give up things like my salmon, sardines, and avocados, luckily it doesn't look like I have to give up my oysters .

Other than a dozen oysters and week, Peat would not favour eating a lot of those, but it's up to you how strict you want to be about it. I still enjoy a little salmon or avocado once in a while.

Caffeine increases glycogen demand.
Low glycogen leads to high adrenaline and panic attacks.

+1

Is the fact that caffeine increases glycogen demand a good reason to have coffee with a lot of sugar?

I think so.

What would be some good examples of some Peat approved starches?

I think he has suggested in order of preference, if one tolerates starches well, well-cooked potatoes, white rice, oats, masa harina (nixtamalisation makes a difference) (I'm not 100 % sure on this order after potatoes. ) He's not keen on gluten, but has has talked about it being improved by slow leavening methods. Some people here seem to do fine with white wheat bread.

Also, for the past week my BM's have changed. Initially the stools were loose. I was also having more BM's as well. Now they have firmed up but are a very lite tan color.I also have had a lot of bloating and gas. All of this has clearly been a result of the dietary changes I've made the last week.

Gut microbiome adapts to diet - yours isn't used to what you are currently eating yet. Hopefully it will adapt soon. This can be another reason for making changes gradually. There can also be a time lag for digestive enzymes to adapt to big change - eg lactase, amylase, etc.

I am looking for how am I getting enough magnesium in the Ray Peat diet. I cannot understand how he says this about coffee and I have heard Andrew bring magnesium and coffee up over and over, Are we missing something? Do we need to take extra magnesium?

Peat has recommended leaf broths a number of times as way to get Mg. I think OJ and other fruits have some. IIUC, when hypothyroid, Mg gets lost faster, so you need more (eg 400mg+), and may need to supplement. When metabolism is strong, may not need as much?

 

[achillea]

5 cups coffee-35mg Mg
2 quarts milk- 318 mg Mg
1 quart OJ- 109mg Mg
3-5 oz oysters- 75mg Mg

 

[tara]

2 quarts milk- 318 mg Mg

:)

 

[MSH]

MSH


I don't get panic attacks, but I do seem to get energy-related crashes later if I drink coffee, even just small quantities.

Speculation: The coffee or caffeine was helping your cells produce energy and CO2. When you stopped the coffee, you produced less CO2. This set you up to be vulnerable to panic attacks. I don't think it works the same as thyroid, but it can stimulate energy metabolism in the short term. If I were you, I' try to see what you can do about improving your energy balance by other means - eg food etc - and if you can't face skipping the coffee athen maybe see if it works for you to have very small amounts of coffee - just enough to stave off the worse symptoms. I find even 1/2 cup of decaf has enough in it to affect me.


+1 And how much are you eating (approx calories) - unless I missed it?


+1


+1

I had some very slow healing injuries that eventually recovered after a year of eating more and exercising less, including one that was in or around the SI. Healing takes energy beyond just regular maintenance.
Personally, small frequent meals including some potatoes or rice or other starchy foods and a bit of protein along with fruit or other sweet stuff for snacks seems to help keep my energy levels up best at the moment. But Peat is more favourably disposed towards sugars than starches, so that's another route you can try and see what balance works best for you you. If you are lucky, your tastes will guide you on how much sugar you can use. Consider trying intervals of no more than 3 hours between food, maybe more often, and not too long between waking and breakfast, and supper and sleep.


f you have been deprived for a long time, your system may have adapted in ways that make it less able to handle a sudden large increase in carbs. You may need to make changes gradually. There is no guarantee that all damage can be undone, but I there is a good chance that you can get significant improvement.


:)


My current take on this is that the problem is not much that sugar itself is harmful, as a problem of missing all the other nutrients that we need to get with it. The ones you get from ripe fruit etc, like potassium, magnesium etc. Some refined sucrose is probably fine if you are getting lots of micronutrients from other foods, but I'd be cautious about making it a major staple.


It's a shocker, isn't it? :)


Other than a dozen oysters and week, Peat would not favour eating a lot of those, but it's up to you how strict you want to be about it. I still enjoy a little salmon or avocado once in a while.


+1

I think so.

I think he has suggested in order of preference, if one tolerates starches well, well-cooked potatoes, white rice, oats, masa harina (nixtamalisation makes a difference) (I'm not 100 % sure on this order after potatoes. ) He's not keen on gluten, but has has talked about it being improved by slow leavening methods. Some people here seem to do fine with white wheat bread.


Gut microbiome adapts to diet - yours isn't used to what you are currently eating yet. Hopefully it will adapt soon. This can be another reason for making changes gradually. There can also be a time lag for digestive enzymes to adapt to big change - eg lactase, amylase, etc.


Peat has recommended leaf broths a number of times as way to get Mg. I think OJ and other fruits have some. IIUC, when hypothyroid, Mg gets lost faster, so you need more (eg 400mg+), and may need to supplement. When metabolism is strong, may not need as much?

Tara, first of all I want to say thank you for all the effort you put into your response!

I haven't had caffeine in over two years. I should have said, " if I were to have coffee/caffeine..." my mistake. I am nervous, make that VERY nervous about reintroducing caffeine back into my system as it wasn't until I quit caffeine that all hell broke loose with my health. But, hearing of the supposed benefits, and that in fact my health got worse after quitting I'm seriously considering it, though my wife will probably kill me for it. Lol

I do suspect that I am not eating enough calories. It's time to track that for a while. I have definitely been taking longer than 3 hours between meals. I was under the understanding that taking about 5-6 hours was best to encourage gluconeogenesis and that was a good thing, apparently not. This was advice from someone named Jack Kruse. I'm not so sure about much of his advice, and too be honest I don't understand half of it lol! I'd say my current macro ratios have been 50F, 25 P, 25C.

It has been a while since I've had any blood work or checked my temps. My blood work except for low T was always normal. My temps usually ran low.

I've been eating about 8oz of oysters a day, hope that's not over doing it! I definitely started off to fast with the OJ and milk last week.

Another weird thing that happened to me that I failed to mention earlier is that I broke out in some acne and a athletes foot flare up, weird. ???

Thanks again Tara for your time! I learned a lot and got some direction :)

 

[tara]

If it's working for you to avoid coffee, I wouldn't push it at the cost of any of those symptoms you described. There are other things you can do.

I do suspect that I am not eating enough calories. It's time to track that for a while. I have definitely been taking longer than 3 hours between meals. I was under the understanding that taking about 5-6 hours was best to encourage gluconeogenesis and that was a good thing, apparently not. This was advice from someone named Jack Kruse. I'm not so sure about much of his advice, and too be honest I don't understand half of it lol! I'd say my current macro ratios have been 50F, 25 P, 25C.

AIUI, chronically low calories means energy deficit, which can have various potential effects: lowering base metabolism (and therefore temperature) to conserve energy, burning body fat for energy, catabolising tissue proteins (gluconeogenesis) for energy and to reduce their metabolic demands, slowing down the repair and maintenance. Gluconeogenesis (converting protein from ones own organs or from diet) has its uses, but as a major source of daily energy, it has it's downsides, including wastes from the break down of protein being a burden that needs to be dealt with, and IIUC, tends to go with a higher stress state (eg higher cortisol levels) than eating and burning carbs. And it's not only carbs that stimulate insulin production - protein does too.
I'm not very familiar with Kruse's writing (have read a little), but I gather his model of ideal energy generation, and diet to support it, differ quite a lot from Peat's. If you haven't yet read Peat's articles on sugar and related topics, you can find some here:
raypeat.com/articles/
He doesn't buy the anti-sugar ideas that some HFLC proponents advise, and he tends to favour ripe fruit, juice, milk, honey. Other than having reservations about starch (and nightshade intolerance for sensitive people), he's spoken of benefits of proteins and potassium potatoes.
There's quite a range here, with a few people saying they seem to do well with lots of fat (eg drinking cream), but many going for more carbs than fats, and some going for low or very low fat. From reports here, it's not obvious that there's any one ratio that will work well for everyone. Personally, I tend to more carbs than fat, but not low fat.

It has been a while since I've had any blood work or checked my temps. My blood work except for low T was always normal. My temps usually ran low.

You have to be a long way off to not show 'normal' to the average dr, I think. If you have actual numbers, eg for any thyroid hormone tests, that would tell more.
Chronically low body temperatures is an indicator of low thyroid metabolism. Long term undereating and overexercising is one of the things that can cause this. Monitoring body temps is a simple DIY test you can use as part of assessing your current state, and whether the tactics you try are making a difference.

 

[MSH]

If it's working for you to avoid coffee, I wouldn't push it at the cost of any of those symptoms you described. There are other things you can do.


AIUI, chronically low calories means energy deficit, which can have various potential effects: lowering base metabolism (and therefore temperature) to conserve energy, burning body fat for energy, catabolising tissue proteins (gluconeogenesis) for energy and to reduce their metabolic demands, slowing down the repair and maintenance. Gluconeogenesis (converting protein from ones own organs or from diet) has its uses, but as a major source of daily energy, it has it's downsides, including wastes from the break down of protein being a burden that needs to be dealt with, and IIUC, tends to go with a higher stress state (eg higher cortisol levels) than eating and burning carbs. And it's not only carbs that stimulate insulin production - protein does too.
I'm not very familiar with Kruse's writing (have read a little), but I gather his model of ideal energy generation, and diet to support it, differ quite a lot from Peat's. If you haven't yet read Peat's articles on sugar and related topics, you can find some here:
raypeat.com/articles/
He doesn't buy the anti-sugar ideas that some HFLC proponents advise, and he tends to favour ripe fruit, juice, milk, honey. Other than having reservations about starch (and nightshade intolerance for sensitive people), he's spoken of benefits of proteins and potassium potatoes.
There's quite a range here, with a few people saying they seem to do well with lots of fat (eg drinking cream), but many going for more carbs than fats, and some going for low or very low fat. From reports here, it's not obvious that there's any one ratio that will work well for everyone. Personally, I tend to more carbs than fat, but not low fat.


You have to be a long way off to not show 'normal' to the average dr, I think. If you have actual numbers, eg for any thyroid hormone tests, that would tell more.
Chronically low body temperatures is an indicator of low thyroid metabolism. Long term undereating and overexercising is one of the things that can cause this. Monitoring body temps is a simple DIY test you can use as part of assessing your current state, and whether the tactics you try are making a difference.

Hey Tara!

I no longer follow much of Kruse's advice. The best results I've had so far have been on Paul Jaminet's Perfect Health Diet. I think that the diets inclusion of more carbs has been the biggest help, albeit mostly from starches. He does advocating intermittent fasting. I have no problem skipping BF as far as dealing with hunger but after a few days it does seem to throw me off a little ( sleep, energy, mood).

I plan on starting tracking my temps as soon as I get a better thermometer. There is no doubt that I spent most of my life over exercising and under sleeping. I did however , before I did the vegan thing ( which is what I feel was a big factor in the sudden decline in my health) eat a lot of calories. My activity level is low now. I do short walks and mobility work, all low intensity stuff. Some of this is due to the SI joint issue and some is because I lack the energy to do so. When on occasion I feel like getting after it and I do an intense session it will wipe me out for several days after.

I would be interested in getting your take on the last labs I had done. I will post those as soon as I can locate them.

Thanks!

 

[mayweatherking]

does anyone know, does even a small amount of coffee pretty much derail your progress in your liver glycogen if you are coming from a hypothyroid state? my thought is now, perhaps if you are extremely hypo, to the point where you cant handle caffineine, even with lots of sugar and protein, your glycogen stores are just gone. at that point, i wonder if even a small amount would just mess it up and continue to hurt you over time?

 

[MSH]

Tara, I found my last lab work.

T4= 1.23
TSH= 1.63
RT3= 17.3
T3 Uptake= 31
TPOab= 9
Thyroglobulin Antibody < 1.0

Thanks!

 

[torontomike]

Very interesting discussion, thanks for all your input. Does anyone know Ray Peat's recommendations for coffee and aspirin, can they be taken at the same time? Coffee has blood thinning qualities too no? It seems that both coffee and aspirin shouldn't be taken on an empty stomach but with food, yes?

 

[tara]

I think Peat has suggested that for regular daily use, something like 200mg/day aspirin may a suitable amount for many people, and the higher amounts may be useful for limited periods for specific purposes.
He's suggested ensuring good vit K intake to help counter excessive bleeding from aspirin. If only using a little aspirin, you may be able to get that from food - eg leafy greens, liver etc. If more aspirin, some use a vit-K2 supplement.
To make aspirin easier on the gut, if it is sensitive to it, I expect taking with food to be protective. There are threads here (eg Haidut's) pointing to gelatine (glycine?) being protective, and dissolving with baking osda can modify it in ways that seem to make it easier for some people.

Coffee tolerance seems to vary quite a bit from person to person. Probably best after or at least with food, a partly so it's got some fuel to work with, but I expect also easier on the gut.

I've not seem Peat suggest limiting or separating coffee or aspirin because of the other. My take is that since they both can tend to stimulate metabolism in the short term, there may be reasons to not overdo them. Caffeine and aspirin can enhance each other's effects (eg there are pharmaceutical preparations that combine the two to more effective pain relief).

 

[torontomike]

I think Peat has suggested that for regular daily use, something like 200mg/day may a suitable amount for many people, and the higher amounts may be useful for limited periods for specific purposes.
He's suggested ensuring good vit K intake to help counter excessive bleeding from aspirin. If only using a little aspirin, you may be able to get that from food - eg leafy greens, liver etc. If more aspirin, some use a vit-K2 supplement.
To make aspirin easier on the gut, if it is sensitive to it, I expect taking with food to be protective. There are threads here (eg Haidut's) pointing to gelatine (glycine?) being protective, and dissolving with baking osda can modify it in ways that seem to make it easier for some people.

Coffee tolerance seems to vary quite a bit from person to person. Probably best after or at least with food, a partly so it's got some fuel to work with, but I expect also easier on the gut.

I've not seem Peat suggest limiting or separating coffee or aspirin because of the other. My take is that since they both can tend to stimulate metabolism in the short term, there may be reasons to not overdo them. Caffeine and aspirin can enhance each other's effects (eg there are pharmaceutical preparations that combine the two to more effective pain relief).

Thanks Tara, I appreciate your input. Can I ask how you've taken Ray Peat's advice and if you are following any protocols, if you don't care to answer that is perfectly fine, I won't be offended lol :)

 

[tara]

T4= 1.23
TSH= 1.63
RT3= 17.3
T3 Uptake= 31
TPOab= 9
Thyroglobulin Antibody < 1.0

Having said that more can be gleaned from results, I'm afraid I'm no expert at reading them. The TSH is probably a bit higher than optimal, but not extreme. I think that indicates that the thyroid hormones are not quite as high as the body thinks they should be at the time (which may include down-regulation as an adaptation to energy deficiency). The others I can't remember what the normal ranges and ratios are, so I can't have much of an opinion about them. Maybe others will be more up with that., o you can go hunting through other threads.

 

[MSH]

Having said that more can be gleaned from results, I'm afraid I'm no expert at reading them. The TSH is probably a bit higher than optimal, but not extreme. I think that indicates that the thyroid hormones are not quite as high as the body thinks they should be at the time (which may include down-regulation as an adaptation to energy deficiency). The others I can't remember what the normal ranges and ratios are, so I can't have much of an opinion about them. Maybe others will be more up with that., o you can go hunting through other threads.

Thanks Tara!