Big Muscles Little Fat - Lose Fat The Ray Peat Way!

Hans

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I still don't quite understand all this.
If you eliminate starch and replace it with fruit and sugar aren't you just basically reducing your calories, and therefore losing weight?
It's hard to get the same amount of calories from fruit & sugar as it is from starch.

And what's the big difference between eating starch and fruit? What does starch do that is harmful vs fruit?
Starch is sugar too, just no fructose.
I would guess there are a lot of healthy people in the world with a starch-heavy diet.
I've tried going without starches and can barely make it a day. It just seems so wrong to me.
I feel like I didn't eat anything unless I have a nice portion of rice or mashed potatoes or sourdough bread with my protein.
The biggest problem Peat has woth starches is the perabsorption of starch particles. Also, it's not as easy to digest, so are more likely to irritate the gut.

Other than that, starches are more insulinogenic than fruits, which could be a problem for some. Actually, combining fruit with starches can dramatically help to reduce the glycemic response from a meal.
Combining starch and fruit is not bad at all. If you do better on starches, but all means, eat them. Low carb diets are not better than high carb diets for fat loss in the long run, regardless of the carbs are from high or low GI.

Peat mainly has a problem with grains, beans and such. He still eats tortilla, which is technically a starches, but very easy to digest.
 

julia

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What about the exercise part of the muscle building equation?
Too much exercise will increase cortisol and be counterproductive.
Too little exercise will not provide enough stimulus for the muscles to grow...
It seems that eating sugar and protein works perfectly fine for skinny people to build more muscle as we can see from

Rinse & rePeat's beautiful photos of her success story

,but what about heavier people who carry around a lot of extra fat,will the same diet work for them to lose fat?

On a side note : Ray said in an interview that calorie for calorie starches are more fattening then sucrose.I have also sent him an email asking about how to lose fat and he answered that eliminating PUFA and starches was the way to go.
 

James b

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The biggest problem Peat has woth starches is the perabsorption of starch particles. Also, it's not as easy to digest, so are more likely to irritate the gut.

Other than that, starches are more insulinogenic than fruits, which could be a problem for some. Actually, combining fruit with starches can dramatically help to reduce the glycemic response from a meal.
Combining starch and fruit is not bad at all. If you do better on starches, but all means, eat them. Low carb diets are not better than high carb diets for fat loss in the long run, regardless of the carbs are from high or low GI.

Peat mainly has a problem with grains, beans and such. He still eats tortilla, which is technically a starches, but very easy to digest.
I heard him talk favourably about a quesadilla the other day. I know that’s not his staple diet, but do you think he was presumably talking about a standard wheat flour tortilla here?
 

Hans

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I heard him talk favourably about a quesadilla the other day. I know that’s not his staple diet, but do you think he was presumably talking about a standard wheat flour tortilla here?
I don't think be would do wheat, but interestingly, I seem to tolerate wheat tortilla better than corn tortilla for some reason. Although I eat both very infrequently.
 

Steve

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The biggest problem Peat has woth starches is the perabsorption of starch particles. Also, it's not as easy to digest, so are more likely to irritate the gut.

Other than that, starches are more insulinogenic than fruits, which could be a problem for some. Actually, combining fruit with starches can dramatically help to reduce the glycemic response from a meal.
Combining starch and fruit is not bad at all. If you do better on starches, but all means, eat them. Low carb diets are not better than high carb diets for fat loss in the long run, regardless of the carbs are from high or low GI.

Peat mainly has a problem with grains, beans and such. He still eats tortilla, which is technically a starches, but very easy to digest.
So ignoring the perabsorption issue is there any great benefit from eliminating starches for a while and replacing them with fruits/sugars?

Rinse & rePeat seems to have had the desired results from doing that, and there is a bodybuilder site (seems a little scammy) that recommends the same for when they are getting ready for competition and want to lose fat.

Plus there are numerous people saying they can eat way more calories eliminating starches and still not gain fat. So I don't know what to believe.....confused again! :)
 

Hans

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So ignoring the perabsorption issue is there any great benefit from eliminating starches for a while and replacing them with fruits/sugars?

Rinse & rePeat seems to have had the desired results from doing that, and there is a bodybuilder site (seems a little scammy) that recommends the same for when they are getting ready for competition and want to lose fat.

Plus there are numerous people saying they can eat way more calories eliminating starches and still not gain fat. So I don't know what to believe.....confused again! :)
This is where following your intuition comes in. See how you respond. If you tolerate starches just fine, then don't eliminate them. You will be healthier on a diet you do better on and enjoy if that makes sense.

I've eliminated starches for many months and saw great health benefits. Zero physique changes. No drop in weight nothing. My caloric requirements didn't go up either.

The BB most likely got water retention for the starches so cutting them out made him lose the water. Keep in mind that what people often see as "fat loss" is often water weight loss.

Some people need to eliminate starches to lose fat, others don't. There is no set rule, which makes it easy to listen to your body, but also hard, because people want black and white answers.
 

Rinse & rePeat

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Carbohydrates are Protein Sparing. This is nothing New. Also @Hans is mentioning (in one of his Articles on his Website) to go lower in Fats.

I do it kinda like you mentioned, Drinking Milk and Eating (Small Amount) of Meat and my Eggs during the Day. And at Night i eat a bowl of Ice Cream and my Gelatin Drink with Milk and Honey. My Personal Fat Intake is usually around 80-90g per Day Nowadays. I try to reduce it further in Small Amounts. Usually my Fat Rich Meals are the First Meal (Breakfast) and the Final Meal (Before Bed).

I also think Physique-Wise i look better on the Peat Diet (Leaner and a bit Fuller on the Right Places). Could also be Imagination though....
I like what you said David90, "full in the right places"! You are right too that starches like carbs do spare protein, it just takes longer for your body to convert the starches to sugar, and slows down digesting in the process, ESPECIALLY pairing it with a protein. There is nothing metabolism boosting about slow digestion. Eating starchy carbs takes up a lot of room and leaves less hunger for more protein. I also think that is why the old food food pyramid had eight serving of bread first. As ill advised as it was, nutritionist knew that the body needs that sugar for energy. Unfortunately they had already demonized sugar, but people weren't giving that up. So instead people took their sugar and that green light to all of the starches too, aka cookies & pastries, AND upped their fats to get all the pastries baked and the potatoes and bread down, which created a lot of fat people and diabetes. Ray Peat talks about the value of the potato and I am glad to be in on it too, but to replace your proteins for grains, which take more nutrients out of the body than they give, and think your gonna build muscle and slow down the aging process better than the person that doesn't eat them is crazy thinking, even from a non-Peat perspective. If they are so beneficial for losing weight quickly why does every popular diet cut them out first? Everyone can eat all the starches they want and "feel" anyway they want to, but Ray Peat says starches are not "optimal" for losing weight OR "optimal" health, and from own personal experience, I believe him.
 

David90

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I like what you said David90, "full in the right places"! You are right too that starches like carbs do spare protein, it just takes longer for your body to convert the starches to sugar, and slows down digesting in the process, ESPECIALLY pairing it with a protein. There is nothing metabolism boosting about slow digestion. Eating starchy carbs takes up a lot of room and leaves less hunger for more protein. I also think that is why the old food food pyramid had eight serving of bread first. As ill advised as it was, nutritionist knew that the body needs that sugar for energy. Unfortunately they had already demonized sugar, but people weren't giving that up. So instead people took their sugar and that green light to all of the starches too, aka cookies & pastries, AND upped their fats to get all the pastries baked and the potatoes and bread down, which created a lot of fat people and diabetes. Ray Peat talks about the value of the potato and I am glad to be in on it too, but to replace your proteins for grains, which take more nutrients out of the body than they give, and think your gonna build muscle and slow down the aging process better than the person that doesn't eat them is crazy thinking, even from a non-Peat perspective. If they are so beneficial for losing weight quickly why does every popular diet cut them out first? Everyone can eat all the starches they want and "feel" anyway they want to, but Ray Peat says starches are not "optimal" for losing weight OR "optimal" health, and from own personal experience, I believe him.
Yeah, full in the Right Places. Since eating more Peaty i feel and look better Physique-Wise. Especially Abs, and Arms Definition are always showing, without Problem. Might also be the Lower Bodyfat Percentage tho (Around 9-10% at the Moment, from the looks in the Mirror).

Before that, i was always bloated and having Problems with Digestion. Don't get me Wrong, i still eat Starch Occasionaly but not nowhere near as Frequently as i was before. Since going ''Low Starch'', i hold on to my Weight WAY better, as well as my Digestion, which also improved since (mostly) eliminating them. The Only Starchy Carbs would be the Bread, which i use for my ''Anabolic French Toast'' (which is like 30 to 40g of Starchy Carbs Maximum according to Cronometer).

But yeah, I'm on the Same Page as Peat. I think Starches are not Optimal if the Primary Goal is Weight Loss or Optimal Health. In Terms of Muscle Building, maybe someone can be more generous with the Starchy Carb Intake. But i personally would also Advise going ''Low Starch'' or ''No Starch''.
 

Steve

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What if a person like me enjoys walking, hiking, biking, golfing? I often do these activities for multiple hours at a time.
Don't you need starches to fuel those activities? I'm not sure if protein and fruit and fat would be sufficient.
 

David90

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The BB most likely got water retention for the starches so cutting them out made him lose the water. Keep in mind that what people often see as "fat loss" is often water weight loss.

Some people need to eliminate starches to lose fat, others don't. There is no set rule, which makes it easy to listen to your body, but also hard, because people want black and white answers.
True. If fat loss really occured, than it would be via Eliminating Starches. Also Starches are raising your Insulin, so eliminating (or lowering) them, causes less Insulin to be released and therefore less Water Retention occured.
 

David90

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What if a person like me enjoys walking, hiking, biking, golfing? I often do these activities for multiple hours at a time.
Don't you need starches to fuel those activities? I'm not sure if protein and fruit and fat would be sufficient.
Interesting Question. I would personally try it out and see what happens (kinda like a Experiment). Or going Lower in Starch (Under 50g for the Meal after that Activity).
 

Rinse & rePeat

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I wish I had a pic of my body composition for everytime I tried something new Dave90. I would look different in everyone. Grains leave me looking less defined in my face and all over. I don't know which of them I think is safer because they all have their different downsides, but I think a red potato makes the most logical choice for a starch splurge. It has a lot more to give then the grains.
 

Rinse & rePeat

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What if a person like me enjoys walking, hiking, biking, golfing? I often do these activities for multiple hours at a time.
Don't you need starches to fuel those activities? I'm not sure if protein and fruit and fat would be sufficient.
How could you eat a rib eye steak and an iced coffee with milk and sugat and feel like you couldn't take a walk?
 

Rinse & rePeat

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What about the exercise part of the muscle building equation?
Too much exercise will increase cortisol and be counterproductive.
Too little exercise will not provide enough stimulus for the muscles to grow...
It seems that eating sugar and protein works perfectly fine for skinny people to build more muscle as we can see from

Rinse & rePeat's beautiful photos of her success story

,but what about heavier people who carry around a lot of extra fat,will the same diet work for them to lose fat?

On a side note : Ray said in an interview that calorie for calorie starches are more fattening then sucrose.I have also sent him an email asking about how to lose fat and he answered that eliminating PUFA and starches was the way to go.
I wanted to comment Julia that my post in "Lose Fat Not Pounds" had me losing fat tmwith protein and sugar to get into that romper again. I didn't lose anything on the scale, but it was obvious that muscle replaced the fat which got me into the romper. When my cousin said I looked terrible I was 132 and needed to gain weight, which was the before pic. Those pics were 2 years apart. My before pic was just to show how a 20 pound difference between a body of fat and a body of muscle is very different in the same size. I think the difference between losing and gaining weight using fruit/sugar and protein is the fat, less fat to lose weight and more fat to gain weight.
 

Hans

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True. If fat loss really occured, than it would be via Eliminating Starches. Also Starches are raising your Insulin, so eliminating (or lowering) them, causes less Insulin to be released and therefore less Water Retention occured.
The 24hour insulin release matters more than the insulinogenic effect of the meal. People can check c-peptide for this.
 

Hans

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What if a person like me enjoys walking, hiking, biking, golfing? I often do these activities for multiple hours at a time.
Don't you need starches to fuel those activities? I'm not sure if protein and fruit and fat would be sufficient.
Why would protein, fruit and fat be insufficient? When you're doing low intensity exercises, then you're burning mostly fat. In endurance sports, a fructose glucose mix is actually better than pure glucose for recovery and exercise performance.
If you're getting 400g carbs from fruit vs starch, what's the difference?
 

julia

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I wanted to comment Julia that my post in "Lose Fat Not Pounds" had me losing fat tmwith protein and sugar to get into that romper again. I didn't lose anything on the scale, but it was obvious that muscle replaced the fat which got me into the romper. When my cousin said I looked terrible I was 132 and needed to gain weight, which was the before pic. Those pics were 2 years apart. My before pic was just to show how a 20 pound difference between a body of fat and a body of muscle is very different in the same size. I think the difference between losing and gaining weight using fruit/sugar and protein is the fat, less fat to lose weight and more fat to gain weight.
Thank you for answering!
I read the whole thread once again and I couldn't understand 2 things:
1)How many grams of sugar did you eat assuming protein was in the 70-120 range
2)How many calories were you eating
 

Rinse & rePeat

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Thank you for answering!
I read the whole thread once again and I couldn't understand 2 things:
1)How many grams of sugar did you eat assuming protein was in the 70-120 range
2)How many calories were you eating
Two years ago I wasn't tracking my macros and I still don't. I drive myself crazy and overeat doing that. I have no problem getting in a 75 grams of protein in before dinner with a half pound of shrimp, a boiled egg, and an iced coffee with 2 cups of skim milk. I didn't do all the milk and orange juice for that experiment, I just ate as if I were living off the land. The thing about interpreting Ray Peat and his recommendations are that he isn't exact as nd prioritizes best to least, and choosing the least seems to be a lot of people's first choice. Back then for my experiment and still now sugared fruit is best. If I have beef I choose Mexican Coke instead because of the iron. If I am on the road and long away from a meal I take a Mexican coke with me to sip on forvhours (like my little IV) and I am never hungry. Nowadays a spoonful of honey at bedtime gives me good sleep and I use a couple of teaspoons of sugar with my hot coffee, but I don't sugar all day. His sugar recommendation is just to prevent blood sugar imbalances. He DOESN'T prefer straight white sugar for no other reason except it has no nutrition. He says sugar does not make fat, and just the opposite, but it is devoid of nutients and fruit is better. He says to use it when good fruit isn't available, well for most it isn't available. Think to eat more like the low fat low carbers except you get to have sugar sources with every meal. Keep in mind the fats, don't pair two fats in a meal, like meat plus cheese that is too fatty, use cheese as a small meal with sugared fruit or honey. I keep saying sugared fruit because imperfect fruit is hight in histamines and histamines cause stress reactions which raise cortisol, so fruit can backfire, and sugar, as well as salt are natural anti-histamines l. I will start documenting the exactness of my days to post and give you something more to go by. In the meantime Nicole keep asking questions :)
 

Doc Sandoz

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I heard him talk favourably about a quesadilla the other day. I know that’s not his staple diet, but do you think he was presumably talking about a standard wheat flour tortilla here?
Ray eats nixtamalized corn tortillas, never wheat flour.
 

Steve

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Two years ago I wasn't tracking my macros and I still don't. I drive myself crazy and overeat doing that. I have no problem getting in a 75 grams of protein in before dinner with a half pound of shrimp, a boiled egg, and an iced coffee with 2 cups of skim milk. I didn't do all the milk and orange juice for that experiment, I just ate as if I were living off the land. The thing about interpreting Ray Peat and his recommendations are that he isn't exact as nd prioritizes best to least, and choosing the least seems to be a lot of people's first choice. Back then for my experiment and still now sugared fruit is best. If I have beef I choose Mexican Coke instead because of the iron. If I am on the road and long away from a meal I take a Mexican coke with me to sip on forvhours (like my little IV) and I am never hungry. Nowadays a spoonful of honey at bedtime gives me good sleep and I use a couple of teaspoons of sugar with my hot coffee, but I don't sugar all day. His sugar recommendation is just to prevent blood sugar imbalances. He DOESN'T prefer straight white sugar for no other reason except it has no nutrition. He says sugar does not make fat, and just the opposite, but it is devoid of nutients and fruit is better. He says to use it when good fruit isn't available, well for most it isn't available. Think to eat more like the low fat low carbers except you get to have sugar sources with every meal. Keep in mind the fats, don't pair two fats in a meal, like meat plus cheese that is too fatty, use cheese as a small meal with sugared fruit or honey. I keep saying sugared fruit because imperfect fruit is hight in histamines and histamines cause stress reactions which raise cortisol, so fruit can backfire, and sugar, as well as salt are natural anti-histamines l. I will start documenting the exactness of my days to post and give you something more to go by. In the meantime Nicole keep asking questions :)
So don't have two fats in one meal? I saw some of your recipe's had 2 fats such as beef & cheese stuffed peppers, steak with garlic butter, wings with alfredo sauce. Do you not recommend that anymore?

And it's ok to have Mexican coke on it's own? I thought you should always pair sugar with protein, or bad things happen.
 
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