Ketosis Short Term = Relatively Safe?

[CJ_87]

Ray Peat says in one of the Diet Doctor interviews that, regarding ketosis, "...the problem occurs over a few years of exposure to that increased breakdown of protein..."

I think that as long as the fat content emphasised saturated fats such as coconut oil and butter, and discarded nuts, pork and chicken, a short-term curative ketogenic diet could achieve weight-loss without overly stressing the system with cortisol. I also think that anyone worried about a too-rapid breakdown of PUFA-containing fats and muscles could supplement vitamin E to counteract any potential negative effects. Once the dieter was sufficiently thin, they could switch to a low-fat, high-carbohydrate diet without any significant increase in body fat.

So, hypothetically, if one wished to lose body fat quickly, do you think that a ketogenic diet would be a realistic "fix" that could be discontinued after, say, six months to a year of a low-carb way of eating?

 

[ecstatichamster]

well, maybe. I think I got messed up from ketogenic diets though, so I wouldn't want to try it anytime soon.

 

[lindsay]

Ray Peat says in one of the Diet Doctor interviews that, regarding ketosis, "...the problem occurs over a few years of exposure to that increased breakdown of protein..."

I think that as long as the fat content emphasised saturated fats such as coconut oil and butter, and discarded nuts, pork and chicken, a short-term curative ketogenic diet could achieve weight-loss without overly stressing the system with cortisol. I also think that anyone worried about a too-rapid breakdown of PUFA-containing fats and muscles could supplement vitamin E to counteract any potential negative effects. Once the dieter was sufficiently thin, they could switch to a low-fat, high-carbohydrate diet without any significant increase in body fat.

So, hypothetically, if one wished to lose body fat quickly, do you think that a ketogenic diet would be a realistic "fix" that could be discontinued after, say, six months to a year of a low-carb way of eating?

You could try and see how you feel. Personally, I would go crazy not being able to eat carbs for more than a day. Also, you would really want to make sure to get adequate minerals - I recall RP saying in another interview that one can easily cut calories and avoid stress if they are eating enough minerals in the diet. Both low calories and ketogenic will reduce metabolism, though, so a weekly cheat day might be a good idea.

 

[DaveFoster]

Considering that ketosis exists as an alternative system of energy production, "short-term" describes its function.

Will you maximize oxidative stress through excessive lipolysis? Yes.

 

[CJ_87]

Great response, thanks. I take your points about the metabolism-slowing and oxidative stress effects, though I think this too would not be a huge problem if it is used as a limited strategy and not a long-term plan.

One of the dangerously seductive aspects of keto is the 'life hack' quality it can seem to possess, especially regarding mental benefits. Some advocates make it sound like a drug that cures everything from cancer to social anxiety, in a way that less extreme diets can't compete with. (Though I do recall Danny Roddy saying that he was much calmer now on his Peat diet and supplements).

Lindsay, the minerals comment is interesting, and your cheat meal idea is one I have often seen advocated even by the low-carb advocates themselves, and it definitely seems like a reasonable modification for someone trying this way of eating.

 

[skycop00]

You would think that someone losing all that fat which is mostly PUFA, would certainly gain an advantage somewhat. Think about it....if you had shed the bodyfat you would theoretically lower estrone and lower PUFA. I mean at some point it's not so good for metabolism, but strategic use may really speed up our end game....just my thoughts.

 

[ecstatichamster]

I found that if I eat a lot of MCT or coconut oil, I can be ketotic (is that a word?) even with plenty of carbs. Everyone can. YOu don't have to minimize carbs and produce your own ketones. You can eat the food for ketones and your body will make ketones from it even while you enjoy high carbs and low cortisol. Don't know if that matters or not.

 

[Steveig84]

Ketogenesis Isn’t All About Carbs and Insulin

this might interest you

 

[tankasnowgod]

So, hypothetically, if one wished to lose body fat quickly, do you think that a ketogenic diet would be a realistic "fix" that could be discontinued after, say, six months to a year of a low-carb way of eating?

Well, one of the bigger issues is that Ketogenic diets have demonstrated no fat loss advantage over isocaloric higher carb diets. Quick weight loss you get on most low carb diets in general is from water loss, usually due to glycogen loss (glycogen is bound with water). Anthony Colpo goes into this in depth in his book, The Fat Loss Bible, and goes over 27 metabolic ward studies where they held calories constant and varied macros, and didn't find any difference in weight loss in all but a handful of studies, and those studies didn't measure bodyfat.

And if you're trying to do a Keto diet by "Upping the Fat" instead of the Protein, even the study recently put out by NuSi and Taubes suggests that you will be chewing up more muscle than a higher carb diet. Not good.

In the real world, the advantages of low carb diets (when they have advantages) usually come down to increased satiation from protein and fat, increased protein content in general, impaired insulin sensitivity or ability to handle carbohydrates (pre-existing, making lower carb a better choice, at least in the short term), and maybe a psychological boost from quick water weight loss.

Personally, I think the pro-metabolic effects of fructose and protein are much more interesting if you're looking to lose fat. Pretty much all the evidence I've seen so far (and my personal experience) points to the fact that calories are king.

 

[PakPik]

Are you guys sure is it really that great for brain functioning? I truly doubt it. Specially from a ketogenic diet's heavy reliance on cortisol and other brain annihilating hormones (when chronically high). Though that may feel as some sort of mental energy boost for many, but isn't that what adrenaline, cortisol and other stress hormones do to your nerves?

This short term (1-month) experiment shown in a BBC documentary is very telling:

Gues Who Wins?Van Tulleken Twin Doctors Go On Month Long High-fat And High-sugar Diet (BBC Document)

You may want to check this thread as well:
Ray Peat Diet When You Have Sibo/digestion Issues

 

[Westside PUFAs]

Ketosis that is induced from water only fasting at about 3-4 days is safe but ketogenic diets are not safe.

Water Fasting Results: Why I LOVED Not Eating for 5 Days

My Fasting Experiment

The Fasting Series

 

[PeatThemAll]

Ketosis that is induced from water only fasting at about 3-4 days is safe but ketogenic diets are not safe.

Water Fasting Results: Why I LOVED Not Eating for 5 Day

Ah, that in-my-20s-everything-goes-easily vibe. Let's see what he'll post when doing it again in 25 years. Won't be as blue sky: accumulated PUFA (detoxing) guarantees it.

 

[CoolTweetPete]

I found that if I eat a lot of MCT or coconut oil, I can be ketotic (is that a word?) even with plenty of carbs. Everyone can. YOu don't have to minimize carbs and produce your own ketones. You can eat the food for ketones and your body will make ketones from it even while you enjoy high carbs and low cortisol. Don't know if that matters or not.

Roddy's idea that the reason low carb diets feel so good is because of the extra energy from stress hormones rang true with me when I had been on a Peat inspired diet about 3 months.

My mood had completely changed. I was more playful and joking with strangers. And I was just generally.. Happy. When I was on a low carb ketogenic diet, I was often in a bad mood and didn't even realize it.

 

[Peatish Ninja]

Ah, that in-my-20s-everything-goes-easily vibe. Let's see what he'll post when doing it again in 25 years. Won't be as blue sky: accumulated PUFA (detoxing) guarantees it.

Water fasting isn't about "detoxing" PUFA. It's about developing resilience to it (efficient excretion).

 

[Westside PUFAs]

Ah, that in-my-20s-everything-goes-easily vibe. Let's see what he'll post when doing it again in 25 years. Won't be as blue sky: accumulated PUFA (detoxing) guarantees it.

I disagree. I've been to a water fasting clinic and I've seen people in their 40's, 50's and up doing water fasts and they were just fine. They were burning through one whole pound of pure fat per day which had plenty of pufa in it because 1., no one can avoid pufa completly even if you eat no overt pufa, 2., they ate the SAD for their wholes lives so they had pufa, and 3., they didn't eat pure saturated fat for their whole lives.

 

[MB50]

Ketosis is probably helpful in situations where a person is unable to properly metabolize carbs. I think doing a ketogenic diet and then trying to switch to high carbs would probably result in rapid weight gain. In order for the body to properly use glucose, a lot of hormonal changes and adaptations (i.e. regaining insulin sensitivity) would need to take place over a period of time. The only people that seem to keep weight off on a ketogenic diet are those who stick to a ketogenic diet long-term, which comes with its own considerations. I think reading through all the arguments and posts on here make a fairly strong case against ketosis unless you have some issue with properly using carbs as fuel.

 

[jyb]

In order for the body to properly use glucose, a lot of hormonal changes and adaptations (i.e. regaining insulin sensitivity) would need to take place over a period of time..

That takes about only 3 days of 150 gram/carbs per day, according to anecdotes I've read online - for a normal individual. Interestingly however, much less perhaps only 50grams daily is enough to stay out of ketosis, provided the energy is otherwise supplied as saturated fatty acids.

 

[MB50]

That takes about only 3 days of 150 gram/carbs per day, according to anecdotes I've read online - for a normal individual. Interestingly however, much less perhaps only 50grams daily is enough to stay out of ketosis, provided the energy is otherwise supplied as saturated fatty acids.

But the hormonal changes that take place during ketosis will take time to reverse, correct? For example, I understand that insulin signals the thyroid to produce thyroid hormone, which is very important for the proper oxidation of glucose; so if somebody jumps out of ketosis and into a high carb diet, they may be able to become insulin sensitive fairly quickly, but ramping up thyroid production and conversion to maximally oxidize carbohydrate will take some time. Am I tracking that right?

 

[jyb]

But the hormonal changes that take place during ketosis will take time to reverse, correct? For example, I understand that insulin signals the thyroid to produce thyroid hormone, which is very important for the proper oxidation of glucose; so if somebody jumps out of ketosis and into a high carb diet, they may be able to become insulin sensitive fairly quickly, but ramping up thyroid production and conversion to maximally oxidize carbohydrate will take some time. Am I tracking that right?

I'm not sure if I agree, if we are talking about someone healthy. A train of thought is that good health is closely linked to so called metabolic flexibility and I find some of it convincing.

 

[skycop00]

I found that if I eat a lot of MCT or coconut oil, I can be ketotic (is that a word?) even with plenty of carbs. Everyone can. YOu don't have to minimize carbs and produce your own ketones. You can eat the food for ketones and your body will make ketones from it even while you enjoy high carbs and low cortisol. Don't know if that matters or not.

I saw a study recently that showed if you added MCT or Coconut oil on your PASTA, that you can negate the ultra high spike in insulin and shift towards more ketones. I will see if I can find it!