Ketogenic Diet And Lipolysis: Supplements / IdeaLabs Products To AVOID Or TAKE

[satsumass]

Hi,

Relatively new to this forum but have gotten a ton out of it. I will preface this by saying I am aware of the general negative-bias towards ketogenic diets on this board, have listened to a number of @haidut 's really excellent Generative Energy podcasts, etc. However, I have a substantial amount of weight to lose, and am under the care of an endocrinologist (for prior metabolic syndrome which has been essentially reversed with medications), and have other issues that have caused severely resistant weight loss in the past (bipolar disorder and medications I'm on for that, sleep apnea, etc.).

Endo has now put me on a very-low-calorie low-carb medically supervised diet. About 800-1000 calories a day, consisting of 3-4 shakes and non-starchy veggies. This is meant to be short term, 4-8 weeks, with gradual addition of normal food to prevent rebound. They have seen really excellent results with other patients. Oh and it's not completely keto--but Doc says people do get into ketosis. It ends up being about 40-60g carbs per day, 100-120g protein, and the rest pretty low fat. I've had good but short term results with severely low carb (atkins style) diets in the past, and they also really help mood and stability.

I am male, 36, 5'11, 270lbs, built like a bear (lots of muscle but also plenty of fat) and put on muscle very easily). Roughly 30% BF. Looking to lose at least 40lbs and hoping to do so with the smallest loss of muscle I can.

QUESTION is--given I'm going to commit to this, and I'm aware and have learned through this forum of the various Peatarian agents (and others) which can inhibit lipolysis (which I DON'T want for this period given that I am assuming I will just burn up muscle instead of fat as my calorie level will remain low) what supplements and IdeaLabs products if any should I STOP or NOT TAKE (I'm not taking all of the following, but these are in my 'stable'). Should note I am also on TRT. And what may HELP:

- Niacinamide: is there ANY dose that would be "ok" if my goal was to maximize short term lipolysis?
- Thiamine/Allithiamine
- Aspirin: @haidut mentioned I believe in an earlier thread he lost weight when he stopped this
- L-Carnitine (i have an injectable form, Synthetine, know that typically this is said to increase FA oxidation but unsure how that works in real world)
- Vitamin A
- Vitamin E
- T3/T4 (currently take half a tab of NDT as well as one or two drops of TyroMix a few times a day)
- Caffeine
- Anything else to be concerned about?

IdeaLabs products I have in my stable (and have generally gotten good results with depending on dose):
- Tyromix
- Pansterone
- 11-keto-DHT
- MitoLipin (in another ketogenic thread I believe @haidut mentioned that if one was going to do keto, this would be great to add...any suggestions on dose?)
- Lapodin (particularly concerned here as read the citaiton where Emodin inhibited lipolysis plus Lapodin is said to decrease cortisol...understand that keto diets really amp up cortisol but would be seemingly bad for lipolysis and fat loss if I totally counteracted that).
- Androsterone
- Kuinone

Thank you very much for any insights and for potentially saving me from a really unnecessarily disappointing result :)

 

[ilikecats]

Wow! 800 calories and keto. Are you trying to kill yourself? Your endos a dumbass of epic proportions . You should tell him that.

 

[SolidSteele]

I wouldn't aim to maximise lipolysis. You don't want to be increasing your FFA in your blood to more than your body need to use. You need to strike a balance. Aim to increase your energy expenditure and adjust you lipolysis to match.
I would talk to your endo about maybe getting an organic acids test, which will show you where your body bottle-necks in energy production and then you can supplement from there.

I'd also make sure you are getting enough riboflavin as it is an important precursor for NAD and FAD.
I wouldn't bother with Carnitine unless you've had a test that said you need it.

 

[zztr]

You weigh 270 pounds. All you have to do is not stuff your face and go for two half hour walks everyday and you'll shed fat like crazy. Restricting to 800 calories is retarded.

 

[X3CyO]

You have so much products yet...

I reccomend reading some of peats articles on metabolism and sugar in particular before taking any of haiduts products. They only work if certain criteria are made; particularly for the most part following a peat diet.


People here prefer to passively burn off fat with their muscles as to avoid shock of any kind via pufa flying out of the system very quickly which can mess someone up depending on how much has accumilated prior to this new.. fat loss diet? If you have so much muscle, yet also so much fat, then a peat diet will burn off your fat in a fast and safe manner naturally.

If you eat protein with no carbs, youll lose muscle no questions asked as it stimulates the same response by the body as if your body were breaking down muscle itself.


Following a peat diet over time leads to improved insulin function, fat loss, and if calories are eaten in excess, but following a peat guidline, most of it over time will turn to muscle (especially if you actually damage/stimulate muscles during this time.)

If youre really gonna go through with this process with full knowledge of the repercussions, then I reccomend no supplements other than vitamins.

Most peat supplements as you said are for oxidative metabolism... if you take them while doing such a protocol, youll definitely drop in bodily temp, and activate a lot of stress hormones.. adding any thyroid, or things that stimulate oxidative metabolism without carbs/sugar will just speed up the process of burning your muscle for sugar.


Once again, I reccomend you read some of peats articles on sugar, and metabolism, as you will set yourself back as many others have done the same as what you have (me included a year and a half back). If not, then good luck, we live and learn.

 

[satsumass]

(Sigh).

Not going to argue with trollish responses but thanks for at least a shred of useful information @X3CyO -- so even though ketogenic diets reduce thyroid function you are saying it would be counterproductive (at least in terms of preserving muscle) to add additional exogenous T3/T4 even in small amounts...?

I want to stress that I have tried everything. I am in a somewhat unique situation as I have sleep apnea and metabolic derangement from prior use of antipsychotics, as well as a continual need for other psychotropic agents for my bipolar disorder, agents which affect appetite and nutrient signaling, etc. (I require MAOIs for my depression, for instance, which invalidate some of the above "suggesitons".)

Research has shown repeatedly that very low calorie diets are extremely effective for weight loss....even a 20lb loss in a month, even if not all fat, will substantially improve my resistant apnea and sleep as well as improve mood stability via ketogenic means...I Have no intention on being a long-term keto dude or even a paleo-freak. I wouldn't be on this website as much as I have been in terms of research and reading nor would I ask this question here if I didn't respect the views here and believe that long term, after the excess weight comes off, a Peat-style diet is the best for me.

Other useful remarks that address my question would be appreciated.

 

[zztr]

I want to stress that I have tried everything.

Did you try going on two half hour walks a day? Because it's very difficult to maintain that kind of weight with an hour of daily walking.

 

[X3CyO]

Interesting. You are in quite a predicament. I have to say I think you have low thyroid if not, the fact that you eat in caloric excess due to depression or meds makes sense to me.

The whole point of peat is to raise your baseline metabolism (I eat 3000-4000 @155-165 and havent vaired from that range for the past 8 months. I believe a normal average for my bmi would be around 2800 and less compared to the fact that I dont really exercise as of late either.



This diet youre being put on is a crash diet. Lose weight, feel good, eat more, gain it back and then some, and it doesnt work, or atleast hasnt personally.

What kind of drugs are you on more specifically? Statins as well possibly?

If youre not comfortable awnsering that, its fine, but what Id if I was in your situation, would be to follow a peat diet to the dot other than consuming milk which can be problematic in some people.

How much thyroid do you take on average? How does caffiene affect you? Aspirin?

If you can tolerate aspirin and caffiene (the good part of the old fashion bodybuilding cut stack ECA) id use that as it boosts everything that peat pruports as king for anabolism and adrenergic fuction without overshooting it.

If you fill your glycogen stores, your muscles will burn more fat passively.
Id also add a little bit of heavily saturated coconut oil 90% or more, as it stimulates thyroid naturally as well as with sugar.



As you probably know then, adding sucrose raises cholesterol which is utilized by these filters (aspirin, caffiene, and coconut oil) synergystically to raise pregnenolone and allopregnenolone eventually which can help with adhd (I have mild add/ocd from prior asperger like health issues) as well as improving sleep quality (I personally sleep like a rock if I do all these things). I cant relate to the apnea, but if its that bad, id reccomend doing something not peaty like intermittent fasting akin to the lean gains protocol.

Itll help you burn fat, and its the only thing I can reccomend for fat burning as a fast with a kind of clear conscience.






So clarifying:
eat a carb heavy meal with a tbsp coconut oil, with a multivitamin and some protein, then after a meal, take the aspirin, and caffeine.

For your weight, and if you dissolve the aspirin in boiling water, then, id say up to a gram with your k2 (325mg:1drop kuinone), and up to 800mg total caffiene throughout the day. Maybe start off the first week with 325aspirin, 200mg caffiene and 1 drop kuinone and build up.

Id take it slow, and dissolve the aspirin in baking soda to ameliorate the burn that can sometimes occur from taking a tablet.


Your doctor thinks he is looking out for you, but the reality is, if you keep coming in, he can line his pockets to pay off his possibly insane student loans. Is he in shape? Attractive? Atleast he aint a guru, but he's on the other side of the spectrum most likely.




I need to also clarify that over time following peats reccomendations literally can fix any issues you have as they all stem from very similar, and a not very broad category over time. Getting off meds is the first step though. Definitely if its not peaty too.




Anyways. Good luck once more. I hope you take my advice or something other than your current path.

 

[Regina]

Interesting. You are in quite a predicament. I have to say I think you have low thyroid if not, the fact that you eat in caloric excess due to depression or meds makes sense to me.

The whole point of peat is to raise your baseline metabolism (I eat 3000-4000 @155-165 and havent vaired from that range for the past 8 months. I believe a normal average for my bmi would be around 2800 and less compared to the fact that I dont really exercise as of late either.



This diet youre being put on is a crash diet. Lose weight, feel good, eat more, gain it back and then some, and it doesnt work, or atleast hasnt personally.

What kind of drugs are you on more specifically? Statins as well possibly?

If youre not comfortable awnsering that, its fine, but what Id if I was in your situation, would be to follow a peat diet to the dot other than consuming milk which can be problematic in some people.

How much thyroid do you take on average? How does caffiene affect you? Aspirin?

If you can tolerate aspirin and caffiene (the good part of the old fashion bodybuilding cut stack ECA) id use that as it boosts everything that peat pruports as king for anabolism and adrenergic fuction without overshooting it.

If you fill your glycogen stores, your muscles will burn more fat passively.
Id also add a little bit of heavily saturated coconut oil 90% or more, as it stimulates thyroid naturally as well as with sugar.



As you probably know then, adding sucrose raises cholesterol which is utilized by these filters (aspirin, caffiene, and coconut oil) synergystically to raise pregnenolone and allopregnenolone eventually which can help with adhd (I have mild add/ocd from prior asperger like health issues) as well as improving sleep quality (I personally sleep like a rock if I do all these things). I cant relate to the apnea, but if its that bad, id reccomend doing something not peaty like intermittent fasting akin to the lean gains protocol.

Itll help you burn fat, and its the only thing I can reccomend for fat burning as a fast with a kind of clear conscience.






So clarifying:
eat a carb heavy meal with a tbsp coconut oil, with a multivitamin and some protein, then after a meal, take the aspirin, and caffeine.

For your weight, and if you dissolve the aspirin in boiling water, then, id say up to a gram with your k2 (325mg:1drop kuinone), and up to 800mg total throughout the day. Maybe start off the first week with 325aspirin, 200mg caffiene and 1 drop kuinone and build up.

Id take it slow, and dissolve the aspirin in baking soda to ameliorate the burn that can sometimes occur from taking a tablet.


Your doctor thinks he is looking out for you, but the reality is, if you keep coming in, he can line his pockets to pay off his possibly insane student loans. Is he in shape? Attractive? Atleast he aint a guru, but he's on the other side of the spectrum most likely.




I need to also clarify that over time following peats reccomendations literally can fix any issues you have as they all stem from very similar, and a not very broad category over time. Getting off meds is the first step though. Definitely if its not peaty too.




Anyways. Good luck once more. I hope you take my advice or something other than your current path.

Word. You give great advice!

 

[ilikecats]

Goes to endocrinologist for help... endocrinologist puts him on a diet to destroy his endocrine system. You gotta love the messed up world we live in...

 

[ilikecats]

This would be like.... if you went to a doctor because you got a concussion... and the doctor brings in Mike Tyson... and says, "my buddy Mike here is gonna punch you in the head a few times. It's gonna help heal your brain and get rid of all your symptoms!"

 

[KetoDiesel]

I'll just give you my 2 cents on your situation. I've been following a ketogenic diet since the mid-1990s. And if you're just starting out and have that much weight to lose I don't think you need to waste time on shakes or anything like that because the ketogenic diet is so efficient that you should just be eating Whole Foods. In addition you're not going to need any sort of fat burners etc especially not this early into your diet. As you get much much leaner and want to incorporate these things then fine but there's really no reason to do them so early into your journey because you have a lot of weight to lose that you will lose naturally with no help from any pill or powder... trust me I've been doing this for decades. Just follow the protocol and let the process work and as you get very lean and want to incorporate fat burners things like a ephedrine, caffeine, aspirin and even carnitine if you must we'll be fine at that point. by the way I'm hypothyroid and take synthroid for over 20 years and have zero issues with a ketogenic, it's a super effective dietary protocol.

 

[X3CyO]

^
If you were to do it long term take thyroid. Just like the eskimos via thyroid gland consumption.

 

[A.R]

I'll just give you my 2 cents on your situation. I've been following a ketogenic diet since the mid-1990s. And if you're just starting out and have that much weight to lose I don't think you need to waste time on shakes or anything like that because the ketogenic diet is so efficient that you should just be eating Whole Foods. In addition you're not going to need any sort of fat burners etc especially not this early into your diet. As you get much much leaner and want to incorporate these things then fine but there's really no reason to do them so early into your journey because you have a lot of weight to lose that you will lose naturally with no help from any pill or powder... trust me I've been doing this for decades. Just follow the protocol and let the process work and as you get very lean and want to incorporate fat burners things like a ephedrine, caffeine, aspirin and even carnitine if you must we'll be fine at that point. by the way I'm hypothyroid and take synthroid for over 20 years and have zero issues with a ketogenic, it's a super effective dietary protocol.

Could you please roughly lay out your basic diet/supplements?

Thank You

 

[KetoDiesel]

Could you please roughly lay out your basic diet/supplements?

Thank You

Sure. I eat around 200-250gms/day of protein. 75-125gms fat and under 25/30gms carbs.

I take a handful of supplements but not a ton, you will find some things are needed more on a keto diet then any other. Usually electrolytes/minerals, sodium etc are in greater demand on this diet. I more or less use all the products they sell on this site: Low Carb and Ketogenic Diet Support Vitamins and Supplements

I also take a vit B 100 complex.

 

[sprinter]

You said your doctor wants you drinking 3-4 shakes a day. What are the ingredients in these shakes?

 

[tankasnowgod]

(Sigh).

Research has shown repeatedly that very low calorie diets are extremely effective for weight loss....even a 20lb loss in a month, even if not all fat, will substantially improve my resistant apnea and sleep as well as improve mood stability via ketogenic means...I Have no intention on being a long-term keto dude or even a paleo-freak. I wouldn't be on this website as much as I have been in terms of research and reading nor would I ask this question here if I didn't respect the views here and believe that long term, after the excess weight comes off, a Peat-style diet is the best for me.

Other useful remarks that address my question would be appreciated.

I think at 800 cal per day at your weight, pretty much any diet would be ketogenic, even if it were pure carb, as you're gonna be in a serious caloric deficit. Actually, with about 60g of carbs, and 100g of protein, you should be minimizing muscle loss, if you keep it short term. I think your 8 weeks max is smart. I think most of the hormone supps (11K DHT, Androseterone, low dose DHEA and such) and thyroid would be good during this period. Maybe keep niacinamide to a low dose, 50-100mg a day should still be fine. Not sure about aspirin, but a lower dose should still be okay.

One thing to note, a lot of people doing seriously low cal diets have good results adding a dopamine agonist. Lyle McDonald wrote a book specifically about Bromocriptine, but others (on his forum) have tested things like pergolide (not recommended), cabergoline and such, and have noted they help to keep hunger away, preserve muscle, and target fat. Lisuride should also have similar results. The only thing to be wary of is the side effects. I tried both Bromo and Lisuride/ritanserin combo, and they both made me feel "spacey," like I was disconnected from reality slightly, and not in a good way. Still might experiment with a bit of Lisuride or ritanserin serparatly, and in a smaller dose myself.

 

[beachbum]

I think at 800 cal per day at your weight, pretty much any diet would be ketogenic, even if it were pure carb, as you're gonna be in a serious caloric deficit. Actually, with about 60g of carbs, and 100g of protein, you should be minimizing muscle loss, if you keep it short term. I think your 8 weeks max is smart. I think most of the hormone supps (11K DHT, Androseterone, low dose DHEA and such) and thyroid would be good during this period. Maybe keep niacinamide to a low dose, 50-100mg a day should still be fine. Not sure about aspirin, but a lower dose should still be okay.

One thing to note, a lot of people doing seriously low cal diets have good results adding a dopamine agonist. Lyle McDonald wrote a book specifically about Bromocriptine, but others (on his forum) have tested things like pergolide (not recommended), cabergoline and such, and have noted they help to keep hunger away, preserve muscle, and target fat. Lisuride should also have similar results. The only thing to be wary of is the side effects. I tried both Bromo and Lisuride/ritanserin combo, and they both made me feel "spacey," like I was disconnected from reality slightly, and not in a good way. Still might experiment with a bit of Lisuride or ritanserin serparatly, and in a smaller dose myself.

I'll just give you my 2 cents on your situation. I've been following a ketogenic diet since the mid-1990s. And if you're just starting out and have that much weight to lose I don't think you need to waste time on shakes or anything like that because the ketogenic diet is so efficient that you should just be eating Whole Foods. In addition you're not going to need any sort of fat burners etc especially not this early into your diet. As you get much much leaner and want to incorporate these things then fine but there's really no reason to do them so early into your journey because you have a lot of weight to lose that you will lose naturally with no help from any pill or powder... trust me I've been doing this for decades. Just follow the protocol and let the process work and as you get very lean and want to incorporate fat burners things like a ephedrine, caffeine, aspirin and even carnitine if you must we'll be fine at that point. by the way I'm hypothyroid and take synthroid for over 20 years and have zero issues with a ketogenic, it's a super effective dietary protocol.

Hello,
I have been reading about keto diet on bodybuilding.com and they say to keep fat high, protein moderate, carbs low and as for calories they no way have you go that low in calories. . Just my 2 cents. I would go to that site and they have it so you can figure it out. I'm 145 lb female and according to my figures my calories would be arould 1300. I do total agree with everyone about not restricting calories and also a keto diet is nothing to just hap hazard do, do your homework. Just like following RP thinking. I jumped into without learning all and made matters worse. FYI don't go eating a mess of liver.. Not good. That's what I learned on this forum.

 

[Tourist]

Read your post with lots of interest and wondering what direction you eneded up going with diet-wise? Fwiw, I ened up here after a keto diet lead me to horrible insomnia and through my thyroid outa whack to which I'm still recovering. Please post an update!

Hi,

Relatively new to this forum but have gotten a ton out of it. I will preface this by saying I am aware of the general negative-bias towards ketogenic diets on this board, have listened to a number of @haidut 's really excellent Generative Energy podcasts, etc. However, I have a substantial amount of weight to lose, and am under the care of an endocrinologist (for prior metabolic syndrome which has been essentially reversed with medications), and have other issues that have caused severely resistant weight loss in the past (bipolar disorder and medications I'm on for that, sleep apnea, etc.).

Endo has now put me on a very-low-calorie low-carb medically supervised diet. About 800-1000 calories a day, consisting of 3-4 shakes and non-starchy veggies. This is meant to be short term, 4-8 weeks, with gradual addition of normal food to prevent rebound. They have seen really excellent results with other patients. Oh and it's not completely keto--but Doc says people do get into ketosis. It ends up being about 40-60g carbs per day, 100-120g protein, and the rest pretty low fat. I've had good but short term results with severely low carb (atkins style) diets in the past, and they also really help mood and stability.

I am male, 36, 5'11, 270lbs, built like a bear (lots of muscle but also plenty of fat) and put on muscle very easily). Roughly 30% BF. Looking to lose at least 40lbs and hoping to do so with the smallest loss of muscle I can.

QUESTION is--given I'm going to commit to this, and I'm aware and have learned through this forum of the various Peatarian agents (and others) which can inhibit lipolysis (which I DON'T want for this period given that I am assuming I will just burn up muscle instead of fat as my calorie level will remain low) what supplements and IdeaLabs products if any should I STOP or NOT TAKE (I'm not taking all of the following, but these are in my 'stable'). Should note I am also on TRT. And what may HELP:

- Niacinamide: is there ANY dose that would be "ok" if my goal was to maximize short term lipolysis?
- Thiamine/Allithiamine
- Aspirin: @haidut mentioned I believe in an earlier thread he lost weight when he stopped this
- L-Carnitine (i have an injectable form, Synthetine, know that typically this is said to increase FA oxidation but unsure how that works in real world)
- Vitamin A
- Vitamin E
- T3/T4 (currently take half a tab of NDT as well as one or two drops of TyroMix a few times a day)
- Caffeine
- Anything else to be concerned about?

IdeaLabs products I have in my stable (and have generally gotten good results with depending on dose):
- Tyromix
- Pansterone
- 11-keto-DHT
- MitoLipin (in another ketogenic thread I believe @haidut mentioned that if one was going to do keto, this would be great to add...any suggestions on dose?)
- Lapodin (particularly concerned here as read the citaiton where Emodin inhibited lipolysis plus Lapodin is said to decrease cortisol...understand that keto diets really amp up cortisol but would be seemingly bad for lipolysis and fat loss if I totally counteracted that).
- Androsterone
- Kuinone

Thank you very much for any insights and for potentially saving me from a really unnecessarily disappointing result :)

 

[WestCoaster]

800 to 1000 calories is simply too low. Even if one listens to their hunger and has days of extreme eating, and days of low eating, average out it will still be greater than 1000 calories daily. Everything is an N=1 experiment with people, but if people want to see the general consensus on how others fair with various diets, just simply visit the appropriate forums. Look at this forum and note the list of successes vs failures or those still struggling. Go to the keto forum on reddit and note the success vs failures on there... Even go to the ray peat forum on reddit, but last I check it was a ghost town, so that is probably not ideal. So compare this forum to the keto reddit forum, and you'll notice something right away with successes.

With that said, a lot of people screw keto up just as they do paleo, and I highly suspect that many people here who attempted either, screwed it up for the same reason: Too much protein, not enough fat leading to chronic low calorie. Everybody on here can agree that going too low calorie over long periods of time will wreck your metabolism, it's not debateable. With keto though (as it's mentioned in the OP's post) it needs to be done with higher fat, especially during the adaption phase. Do not follow a caloric total, but follow hunger, not cravings, but hunger. I know that it's extremely hard for people to differentiate between actual hunger, cravings, and eating out of boredom or depression, but people have to make a strong effort to learn the difference. Follow hunger, eat enough protein, keep the fat high, and the carbs low. Don't restrict calories, don't starve yourself, don't intermittent fast unless you're legitimately not hungry. Go easy on the coffee due to the blood sugar disregulation in people, and it's also known to lower Tyrosine. The idea is behind keto to make your body produce it's own energy and get it from it's own stores, not artificially make it through caffeine.