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Bicarbonate Vs. PaCO2 Blood Tests

Discussion in 'Labs' started by haidut, May 24, 2015.

  1. Makrosky

    Makrosky Member

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    WOW! Amazing thread. Amazing discussion. I never saw this thread by 2015, I just saw it today and had to read it all at once from beginning to end. Still too many things floating on my mind. Gotta think about it all.

    @gbolduev , are you still on the forum ?
     
  2. lollipop

    lollipop Guest

    :yeahthat
     
  3. HealthisWealth

    HealthisWealth Member

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    Hi i read about post subclinical hypothyrodism

    Combinaton of zinc and selenium?

    Im on levothyroxine 25mcg.
     
  4. ecstatichamster

    ecstatichamster Member

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    I don't know. I saw. Lot of invalidated opinion. Many of us have to watch our tendency to respect people we don't understand. Perhaps they are just cranks.
     
  5. BeBetter

    BeBetter New Member

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    This is a very interesting thread. I can see it's going to take me a long time to really understand it all, but I see that it connects a lot of dots that I have read about over the years.

    I didn't know about the connection between zinc and bicarbonate. Very interesting. Very helpful.

    Causes of Pancreatic (Digestive) Dysfunction

    1) Too many refined foods, too many combinations at a meal, eating between meals, can all overwork the pancreas and eventually exhaust it.

    2) Over production of HCl and pepsin (see stomach chapter) will make the pancreas overwork and eventually exhaust it.

    3) Nerve pressure in mid thoracic spine or cranial dysfunction irritating the vagus nerve can cause dysfunction (see Appendix A).

    4) A vitamin B deficiency from bad diet or from eating refined products such as white sugar, and white flour (they use up vitamin B in their digestion), vitamin B is necessary for pancreatic enzyme production. These foods also are very acidic and thus overstimulate the pancreas.

    5) Hypochlorhydria will lead to a less acidic chyme. This will cause decreased secretin output and thus decreased pancreatic output and perhaps incomplete digestion as a result. The primary cause, the hypochlorhydria in this case, needs correction for the pancreas to be corrected.

    6) Deficiency in the diet or malassimilation of zinc (it is needed to form bicarbonate) can lead to not enough bicarbonate formation.

    7) Taking sodium bicarbonate or other antacids can neutralize stomach contents and as in #5 lead to decreased pancreatic output as a secondary condition.

    So the way to increase bicarbonate is through pancreatic output, not taking sodium bicarbonate.
     
  6. BeBetter

    BeBetter New Member

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    Adequate zinc along with a good zinc:copper ratio in the diet would seem to help raise bicarbonate output by the pancreas.

    Also important would be adequate secretion of secretin. The acidity of the chyme is important. Does anyone have other advice regarding secretin?

    What else could be wrong with the pancreas that would cause it to not secrete bicarbonate?
     
  7. BeBetter

    BeBetter New Member

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    A study on the involvement of Ca2+ influx related to histamine and nitric oxide.

    Nitric oxide production in human endothelial cells stimulated by histamine requires Ca2+ influx.

    "membrane depolarization, achieved by increasing the extracellular K+ concentration from 5 to 130 mM, reduced both the amplitude of histamine-induced sustained [Ca2+]i elevation and NO production."

    And a study that shows endotoxin entry is Ca2+ dependent, too.

    Calcium flux and endothelial dysfunction during acute lung injury: a STIMulating target for therapy

    And from way back on page 3 or 4 of this thread, it's about respiratory acidosis. "Tested about 100 people the last month for arterial blood gases. 80% --high CO2 20% low CO2. Since in respiratory acidosis you cant take calcium it will go right into your cell and lower already low metabolic rate.


    In respiratory acidosis which is 80% of population , your metabolic rate is lowered on purpose not to produce extra CO2 from metabolism. You calcium goes up in the cell, magnesium goes up in the cell, sodium and potassiuum kept low in the cell. This is done on purpose .
     
  8. Ron J

    Ron J Member

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    Has anyone discussed the points made by gbolduev with Ray Peat?
     
  9. lollipop

    lollipop Guest

    Good question. I wish someone would.
     
  10. tomisonbottom

    tomisonbottom Member

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    I have below 20% iron saturation and definitely deal with fatigue. My last test said I was at 13%. Is red meat the best way to increase it? This is what my iron was on my last labs:

    Iron 48 ug/dL (normal range; 39-167)
    F Iron Binding Cap 370 ug/dL (normal range 225-405)
    F IBC Saturation 13 % (normal range 15-50 %)
     
  11. tara

    tara Member

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    I think you can get even higher concentrations from fresh liver, esp. if you drink fresh ripe OJ with it. But red meat is probably a good source too.
     
  12. OP
    haidut

    haidut Member

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    Peat has been recommending over email liver to people with low ferritin or other proven iron deficiency. Combining with OJ will probably improve the iron absorption even more.
     
  13. Dan Wich

    Dan Wich Member

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    A couple other things to add to the iron deficiency list (I have similar low-ish iron labs after years of low iron consumption, blood draws/donation, etc):
    1. Watch the timing of calcium consumption (Giraffe's comparison is useful before taking the studies at face value)
    2. *Possibly* temporarily restricting aspirin.
    I'm personally considering eating more strawberries, seeds be damned. Mainly because I love them and they're convenient frozen, but also because they're both relatively high in iron and vitamin C (which I think might be the most helpful with non-heme iron sources?).

    [mods, maybe the iron posts are worthy of splitting into a separate "fixing iron deficiency" type thread?]
     
  14. tomisonbottom

    tomisonbottom Member

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    Thanks Dan. That's interesting. I do like strawberries, but never realized they were high in iron! I think I'm in a similar situation, years of avoiding iron, drinking milk, taking aspirin. I had some liver yesterday and did feel a bit better waking up today, so I think I'm gonna try the frozen liver thing. I feel like I'm low in A, anyway.
     
  15. yerrag

    yerrag Member

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    At some point in this thread there was talk of Kelly, and there was talk of metabolic typing and about Ray Peat's ideas applying only to a metabolic type called "fast oxidizers." I was once on a metabolic typing diet for fast oxidizers as I was typed as one. It worked for me and I would feel good about deal more protein with my meals, and would not feel well not eating enough protein. I always had trouble with taking anything that is sugary without any protein to go with it. It would resort shortly with sugar lows and I would either feel sleepy or feel hungry, or get cantankerous, or sneeze and easily become susceptible to another bout of allergic rhinitis. When I had to drive for 7 hours from Cincinnati to Rochester, NY, I would start shaking after 3 hours, and I later on fixed it by making sure I had brought along with me beef jerky to chew on, and I would make the trip easily, stopping only for a bathroom break.

    I thought I had my condition all figured out and proclaimed that metabolic typing is the be all and end all. Until I read up on Peat, and slowly understood why my body acted that way. But before I read Peat, I had already started to reject the use of fish oils and PUFAs, and if I recall correctly, I had been only using coconut oil for cooking and using VCO for supplementation. When I started to read Ray Peat, I learned that he also was saying the same thing about PUFAs, which got me more into reading his articles and into this forum.

    But I was somewhat repelled by his talk about how good sugar is, after my bad episodes with sugar. But my conversion came about as a result of doing a test that I wouldn't have done before. It was to see how one tablespoon of real honey would do to me. Since honey has plenty of fructose, I wanted to test Ray's statement that fructose will be readily metabolized. If true, the fructose would be absorbed and go into my blood stream, and it will used by my body. And if the fructose is used, the sugar won't accumulate in my blood, and my blood sugar won't spike and cause an insulin reaction, which would cause my blood sugar to drop, and cause me to be hypoglycemic.

    Sure enough, I felt more energetic instead of experiencing a sugar low. I confirmed what Ray was saying with this test. Also, I began to question whether it was right for me to continue putting myself under a metabolic type as a "fast oxidizer." I started to ask myself why I act like a fast oxidizer. As a fast oxidizer, I burn carbs very quickly and I need to take more protein and fats so that it will slow down the rate at which I burn carbs. But I also understand that metabolic typing does not pigeonhole me into a type forever, as it also states that over time, as I adjust my lifestyle with taking food and supplementation that is specifically for my metabolic type, I will eventually become a "balanced" type. Knowing that being a fast oxidizer is simply a sub-optimal type that can be corrected, I began to think that being a type other than balanced is something that can be fixed by a lifestyle change. And Ray Peat's ideas began to sonehow intersect with this idea.

    I started to see metabolic typing and Ray Peat's ideas as just different ways of achieving a state of homeostatis. Whereas Kelly's solution was to guide each metabolic type into a set of type-appropriate food and supplementation for short-term well-being while slowly making changes to the body into a common state of homeostatis as an end, with the focus not so much on the why's and much more on the end result; Ray Peat was focused more on the why's a condition exists and on what mechanism can be used to correct a condition, taken as a systemic whole and seeing the forest as well as the trees, the better it is to put all these in a clear light and in a coherent manner so that achieving homeostatis becomes reality by understanding it as a whole.

    The people in this forum, I think, prefer to understand their way to health, rather than follow rules set out by a guru on their way to their health nirvana. I have difficulty using homeopathy not understanding why a particular remedy works here and not there, and why stronger dilutions make something more powerful, for example. I also don't like going to a TCM doctor, and be told to brew a bag of unknown mixture of herbs. I prefer to not blindly follow and not ask questions.

    I enjoyed this discussion until page 7, and had to post my thoughts. Now I'll go back to reading the rest of the thread.
     
  16. yerrag

    yerrag Member

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    Can anyone tell me how arterial CO2 and venous CO2 compares at any given time for a person, in terms of pCO2?

    I see a reading of 33 mm pCO2 on venous blood. I was told there is no basis for seeing that as alkalosis, because only pCO2 for arterial blood is used as basis for that determination. But if arterial blood CO2 is always lower than venous blood CO2, then the arterial blood pCO2 would be lower than 33mm, right? Any thoughts?
     
  17. yerrag

    yerrag Member

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    Here's an answer from Quora: https://www.quora.com/Why-is-carbon-dioxide-more-in-venous-blood-than-arterial-blood

    A response from a member, Pat Harkin says "pCO2 is higher in systemic venous blood than in systemic arterial blood - but it is lower in pulmonary venous blood than pulmonary arterial blood."

    So, to the condition of venous pCO2 at 33mm, the arterial pCO2 has to be < 33mm, right? Would this mean a condition then of respiratory alkalosis?
     
  18. Fisherman94

    Fisherman94 Member

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    @gbolduev

    But how do you think it works with Inflammatory Bowel Diseases where Inflammation is most likely always high?

    Is it better to increase Cortisol even more / is the body missing progesterone?
     
  19. yerrag

    yerrag Member

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    Is this formula robust? The reason I ask is that it doesn't seem to take into account the effect of lactic acid in the blood pH.
     
  20. Motif

    Motif Member

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    Anybody followed recommendations of gbolduev ?
     
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