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Bicarbonate Vs. PaCO2 Blood Tests

Discussion in 'Labs' started by haidut, May 24, 2015.

  1. gbolduev

    gbolduev Member

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    No , I dont cite studies, niacinamide study was mentioned as a joke. Since it is all over the place. I only go with what I saw with my own eyes from the lab. Merck and Pfiezer can bs others not me with their research teams publishing crap on pubmed. They should be shut. Amazing how those asses sleep at night.
     
  2. OP
    haidut

    haidut Member

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    No argument there - big pharma spends a lot of money polluting PubMed with propaganda. I think they sleep very well, most of them believe that making money is a sign they are good citizens.
    But PubMed does have some good stuff (maybe less than 10% of all studies), mostly from before 1950 or more recently from foreign scientists.
    Remember the old Russian saying - "believe nothing of what you hear, and only half of what you see":):
     
  3. gbolduev

    gbolduev Member

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    HAHA I have been following that saying from birth))
     
  4. sunmountain

    sunmountain Member

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    On saturday, I will have taken rifaximin plus berberine for a week. As of today, there has been no change in bloating. None at all.

    The die off symptoms are overall better, though they come and go -- I took activated charcoal every night for 3 nights, plus carrot salad during day, and cascara for motility. And a pinch of ceylon cinnamon almost every day. Today I added a B2 400 to my other B's. ADEK. Plankton 3/day. So muscle stiffness and joint pain are better, but fatigue and bloating no change. I get out of breath from one flight of stairs and my muscles then hurt.

    I don't know if there's any point to continue rifaximin for another week. I'm checking with GI, but his nurse is on vacation. Looks like it killed everything except what it was supposed to kill.

    Next option I want to try is stablized, medical-grade Allicin (Allimed brand) plus berberine and oregano oil. There's some evidence that archaea are suspectible to Allimed.

    Gbolduev, is plankton happy with garlic?
     
  5. sunmountain

    sunmountain Member

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    Hi Gbolduev,

    Just wanted to update that after 9 days of rifaximin/berberine with no change in bloating, I stopped it, and today started medical grade garlic (stable allicin), berberine, and will add neem and oregano. I'm continuing with the plankton.

    Fatigue is very up and down; some days hard to move, other days better. Doesn't seem to correlate to anything I eat, though often after a night of activated charcoal I feel better the next day.

    Adding: I would like to switch from plankton to shilajit, as shilajit is an ayurvedic herb with a long history of use. Do you think it will work for me as well, and can you recommend a good brand as the quality is very variable?

    Thanks
     
  6. gbolduev

    gbolduev Member

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    Hey man, one thing did not make sense to me. If you take progesterone , you say it inhibits pituitary release of ACTH. YES. but to me that happens since you just gave cortisols raw food and cortisol went up.
    I dont get how progesterone inhibits cortisol , I get how it inhibits ACTH. DHEA will also increase cortisol if you take more than you need. people here are taking pregnenolone and DHEA like 150 Mg and DHEA like 25 . LMAO You are missing very little amounts of this stuff. Any amount that is over what you are missing will increase cortisol and estrogen. That is exactly why you get acne and hairloss on pregnenolone and DHEA. There is no feed back cycle on these, Most of it will be converted into something))) and it will drain cofactors like crazy.


    If you are low on pregnenolone , that is probably a problem of converting B5 into its active form which is easily solved with pantethine. Some people are low on vitamin C , in this case all pregnenolone will be directed into making aldo . But it will be stuck at the stage of progesterone and unused causing very bad reactions.Since high progesterone is NOT GOOD.




    To me cortisol is needed and many people stuck with high cortisol need it even higher . Why do you think they are stuck with it. Body is trying so hard to solve a problem with inflammation or with chelation . Cortisol is a chelator , it is one of its functions. Cortisol is anti inflammatory it it is raised to get rid of inflammation.


    Lets say you have cortisol at 500 but your body wants it higher , you just dont have enough progesterone.
    your body needs cortisol at 1500 to completely get rid of inflammation or get its jobs done with chelating of metals. Then you give your body progesterone , it raises cortisol like crazy gets it done and lowers cortisol afterwards to norm. But how progesterone antagonizes cortisol BEATS me.)))




    May be you can shed some light on this info Haidut . May be I am missing something here.
     
  7. OP
    haidut

    haidut Member

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    OK, couple of things.

    If the body raising cortisol was just to take care of inflammation then people having low inflammation should have low cortisol right? Well, that is not the case - there have been many trials with high dose aspirin showing people's biomarkers of inflammation like CRP and ESR went down to almost zero, but that did not have effect on cortisol levels. So, sometimes cortisol production becomes disregulated and it needs to be brought down. I think we are arguing from two different angles here. Short term cortisol elevation is protective, but when it continues for too long it becomes part of the problem. People with the disease MS used to be treated with only cortisol back in the 1970s and 1980s. It works like a charm for 2-3 years and then the disease comes back much much worse. The reason is cortisol stimulates estrogen synthesis and both cortisol and estrogen are demyelinating, so they damage nerves even more. So, the question is what point elevated cortisol becomes pathogenic? I don't know, but I do know that if it continues for too long it will ruin every organ - bones, thymus, muscles, brain, heart, hair, etc. So, chronically elevated cortisol is not a good thing.
    Progesterone gets converted to allopregnanolone, and progesterone and allopregnanolone suppress BOTH cortisol and ACTH. So, in people with high cortisol due to ACTH this should reduce both cortisol and ACTH. Here is some more info, with human studies:
    www.raypeatforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=75&t=6594

    In people with ACTH-independent Cushing that may not work as the cortisol release is not driven by ACTH. In that case, DHEA is more likely to help. I am not sure I agree with you that DHEA can raise cortisol - it is not in the pathway to cortisol and I do not see how it can get converted in that direction. What DHEA can do is raise progesterone, and higher progesterone can exacerbate things for people with ACTH-independent Cushing. But I have not seen that happen in the patients whose data I have access to. DHEA is also a cortisol receptor antagonist so it should mitigate the damage done by cortisol.
    Some pregnant women have the condition eclampsia and they have high cortisol that seems to be not driven by ACTH. These women are sometimes treated with high dose progesterone and it does NOT raise their cortisol. So, it seems that the progesterone conversion to cortisol depends very much on the context.
    I agree with the dangers of having progesterone directed into the aldosterone pathway. But at the doses used and recommended by Peat it probably won't happen. Studies with women taking 400mg oral progesterone found no changes in blood pressure even after 6 months. If aldosterone was rising I would expect to see a clear rise in blood pressure, especially the systolic portion. So, again, it is probably very specific conditions in which progesterone will get diverted into the aldosterone pathway or it may take doses higher than 400mg.
    Your other points about vitamin C and vitamin B5 deficiencies and their effect on steroid production are all legit and I have no problem with them.
     
  8. gbolduev

    gbolduev Member

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    Haidut, sorry but I think you mix things. Aspirin takes care of inflammation by making sugar go into the cell. That raises DHEA and lowers cortisol. Cortisol production is NEVER disregulated. NEVER. And it does not need to come down. Cortisol can be raised for many purposes and not only inflammation. Inflammation is just one reason. Cortisol can and will be raised if you have pancreas problem, sugar problems, etc. And it is raised to save you . You live on cortisol lets say if you are insulin resistant. And if you lower cortisol you will die.))) YOU NEED to lower cortisol not with a drug. You need to lower it by satisfying condition for what its is raised. Lets say no sugar in the cell.Satisfy that condition and it will fall. But if you lower it without satisfying that conditon by some stupid drug or by inhibiting ACTH , that is simply silly/

    Progesterone always goes into aldosterone and cortisol pathway)))) it is made for that reason. I said that if you give progesterone it will raise cortisol at first then it will lower it , if you needed cortisol spike. If you need cortisol at a constant rate , progesterone will raise cortisol . Dont forget progesterone increases potassium in the cell. Cortisol rises with potassium. That is why to raise cortisol people can use potassium supplements.
    I am not saying to take cortisol supplements. I am saying that DHEA does not lower cortisol if you need cortisol. It will lower cortisol only if you had blood sugar problems. Also progesterone will lower cortisol only if it was high and you needed more aldosterone .

    Also why would progesterone increase blood pressure, it wastes sodium. Also try giving that progesterone to women)with normal progesterone they will bleed to death.

    Bottom line, it is not high cortisol that the culpit of a problem, it is the real problem that is causing high cortisol. ANd if cortisol is stuck up there, that means body cant fix that problem . OR cortisol did not spike high enough, and now it is high but not high enough/ That is why progesterone lowers cortisol , since cortisol spikes where it needs to to take care of what ever it was doing and then it comes down.

    DHEA will increase cortisol and it increases estrogen))) You can see many people here playing with pregnenolone and dhea and getting hairloss and acne etc. That is because if you increase DHEA too much or take it with pregnenolone , that will increase cortisol progesterone, Estrogen testosterone.


    Why do you think DHEA is for anti aging? WHY? I will tell you why. It increases estrogen)))) estrogen will chelate copper from the liver and it raises ceruloplasmin in blood. REad the study where estrogen totally clears liver from copper and puts it into the cells and brain basically fixing prions . Most people when they die have very high copper in their livers and zero copper in their body, since their DHEA production goes down which lowers their estrogen to very low. estrogen binds copper from the liver. Peat is saying that we are losing copper))) LMAO just do the biopsy of your liver and see how you are losing it)))) it will be full of copper and iron. And the only way to chelate copper and iron out of there is to increase estrogen. Ceruloplasmin goes up and then your liver copper goes down, that puts up molybdenum and manganese in there which will release iron thru xanthine oxidase which will be oxidized by ceruloplasmin. PEAT is totally wrong about this. And eating tons of copper has the same affect as raw food diet, first 6 months you do great on it then you crash hard. Since copper taken will stimulate adrenals and eventually they will burn out.

    If you lower your estrogen , you wont be binding copper)))) YOU will suffer so bad it is not even funny.

    As funny as it sounds, taking progesterone increases estrogen. JUst look at the chart. you take progesterone, more pregnenolone is free and it gets coverted into DHEA which will raise estrogen testosterone etc.


    BALANCE is a key. Some peoples metabolisms are fast and some are slow depending on their food activity and so forth. That is why for some PUFA is a miracle and poison for others. For some estrogen is bad and it is helpful for others
     
  9. OP
    haidut

    haidut Member

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    I was just answering your questions/comments. Btw, before I even start responding please explain why humans given 500mg pregnenolone daily for 8 weeks did not get ANY increase in cortisol?? They did get elevations of both pregnenolone and progesterone, so according to you this rise in cortisol precursors should have led to cortisol increase, BUT it did not. Can you explain why?
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3427920/
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/article ... /table/T6/

    You also said that higher progesterone would result in higher estrogen. Well, the above data does not show that either.

    Anyways, back to answering your last post. You said that pregnenolone can raise aldosterone and it happens through the progesterone pathway. So, I understood that to mean that pregnenolone elevating progesterone too much is probably not optimal since IF the conversion into cortisol is inhibited then it can only go into aldosterone. I mostly agree with that, except that progesterone can convert into other neurosteroids through the 5-A pathway like allopregnanolone, pregnanolone and others. So, high progesterone will probably make you very sedated and if raise too much it may end up as aldosterone. I have not seen the aldosterone issue happen except in people where the 5-AR is blocked. Some people on bodybuilding websites take pregnenolone with a 5-AR inhibitor in hopes that it will raise their testosterone but NOT raise their DHT. Well, these are the people who get blood pressure increase from pregnenolone b/c blocking 5-AR will end up raising aldosterone and blood pressure. In people not taking 5-AR inhibitors this usually does not happen. Btw, one of the most powerful 5-AR inhibitors are PUFA, so given how much PUFA everybody has in them I am not surprised that some people get blood pressure elevation from pregnenolone or progesterone. But it is still rare.
    I strongly disagree with your comment that cortisol production is NEVER disregulated and that you need it for sugar control. Cortisol itself induces insulin resistance.
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7033265
    There are several drugs on the market now that inhibit 11b-HSD (the enzyme that synthesizes cortisol) and they all target diabetes and insulin resistance. People who take drugs that lower cortisol usually end up losing weight and get restored insulin sensitivity. Stress causes high cortisol. Stress also causes disregulation of the HPA axis, which results in pathological elevation of cortisol. How can you say cortisol is NEVER disregulated when conditions like depression and PTSD have officially been labelled as diseases with disregulated cortisol and glutamate production??
    Serotonin is another major cause of high cortisol, and high serotonin is due to many things but most commonly by stress. So, by that cause alone I argue that high cortisol can be a pathological process if it continues for too long. Anti-serotonin drugs like bromocriptine and lisuride also lower cortisol and as such as used for treatment of both Cushing disease and diabetes.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bromocriptine#Indications
    Bottom line of Peat theory is this - if organism is eating poorly or exposed to stress this results in elevation of stress hormones (cortisol, serotonin, porlactin, etc). NOBODY is disputing the fact that stress raises these hormones. Not one medical doctor disputes the fact that fatigue caused by stress is due to increased serotonin in brain and high fatty acids in blood. Medical books admit that freely except that they claim that no damage is done unless the individual is genetically predisposed. So, this is not some wild Peat theory - this is a widely accepted medical fact.
    Here is where Peat comes in. He says that high stress hormones directly inhibit thyroid activity and can even damage the thyroid through the release of anti-thyroid aminos like cysteine and tryptophan from muscle tissue breakdown due to high stress hormones like cortisol. High stress hormones like cortisol and serotonin also directly make you insulin resistant and fat. Pharma industry is searching like crazy for drugs that inhibit peripheral serotonin metabolism since these drugs will cure obesity. Here is more info on that.
    viewtopic.php?f=75&t=6202
    viewtopic.php?f=75&t=6287
    Pharma industry is also wisening up to the fact that estrogen also causes obesity and is currently applying to get drugs like anastrozole and letrozole approved for obesity treatment.
    http://www.endocrine-abstracts.org/ea/0 ... 20p444.htm
    High stress hormones destroy muscle tissue and the less muscle you have the lower your RMR will be. So, UNLESS you have a PRIMARY condition causing high cortisol and serotonin like Cushings or carcinoid syndrome then these stress hormones are not just a symptom but also a cause of pathology and lowering them is usually beneficial. Even in those primary conditions the accepted treatment other than surgery is lowering these hormones through drugs.
    I agree with you that cortisol is high for a reason. But cortisol also contributes to the pathology. So does serotonin, prolactin (unless you are a lactating woman), estrogen, and others. Bottom line is this - these are stress hormones and if they are high then you are not healthy. Yes, you should look for the reason they are high and treat that reason. But the overall percentage where there is a primary reason is low, everybody else has secondary high hormones due to chronic stress and poor diet. So, Peat is saying fix diet. Also since for some people diet alone may not help and these stress hormones are also pathological if chronically elevated, he is saying that you MAY need to lower them too. The very fact that there are drugs to lower all of these hormones tells you they are probably not that good. Try to get a list of drugs that lower pregnenolone, DHEA, progesterone, thyroid, dopamine etc and compare to the list of drugs that lower cortisol, estrogen, prolactin, serotonin, etc. The second list is much much larger which suggests that these hormones are correlated with many (if not all) pathological conditions. Peat is also saying they are not just correlated, they are also causative if the elevation continues for too long and the body adapts to this new "stress" mode of living. So, lowering them may help reverse the "stress" mode.
    Anyways, I think we are highjacking the thread with our discussion. I think you have very valid points but so does Peat. I am certainly taking your ideas into consideration when researching things and trying with the people I advise, so thanks from me!
     
  10. Such_Saturation

    Such_Saturation Member

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    Convincing people will remain a more or less half-lost battle until we can build a solid physical foundation based on cell protein and cell non-liquid water, as well as the electromagnetic fields that they imply. This foundation cannot be built with Pubmed wars, not properly; it will require a new generation of enlightened biophysicists who are not scared to get the grants, and granting institutions who are not averse to the philosophical repercussions and can recognize the necessity of such a framework.
     
  11. OP
    haidut

    haidut Member

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    I fully agree. However, unless some philanthropic rich person agrees to fund such research independently I do not see it happening any time soon. The establishment has too much to lose if the current dogma of genetics is shaken. Remember, in the modern world there is no difference between science and politics. So, waiting for politicians to fund their own demise may take a while.
     
  12. Such_Saturation

    Such_Saturation Member

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    I think people like Sergey Brin and Elon Musk are driven by a more or less ethical guideline, although it can become misaligned at any point, however their most crucial trait is the fun that they gather from disrupting the current areas of society that they see as problematic. They are powerful individuals with well defined objectives, who fully understand the impotence of current theoretical models in bringing those objectives within their grasp. These people will and have burned plenty of resources and show no sign of slowing down. Even something like the Rockefeller University would be interested in these things, as long as they could maintain conditional control over the resulting information.
     
  13. gbolduev

    gbolduev Member

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    Haidut

    I think this thread is about discussing things. How can we highjack it. If you agreed that 95% of studies are bogus , I have no idea how can you quote them.

    One more time, ANY HORMONES out of balance contributes to pathology. And not cortrisol or estrogen, but also testosterone , progsterone , DHEA . ALL of them out of balance will lead to certain imbalances. HIGH progesterone or low progesterone will lead to cancer. HIgh DHEA or low DHEA will lead to cancer.

    Without proper testing no one should play with these hormones at all. It is super dangerous, since any of these hormones change the PH of your blood. Peat says exactly that. HIs ideas is a theory for one body chemistry, it seems that everytime he is contacted by someone, his story changes and he gives advice based on certain context and certain body chemistry. And this makes sense. But at the same time it tells me that all other standardlized info is super dangerous.
     
  14. OP
    haidut

    haidut Member

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    I agree with that, hormones should not be messed with unless there is a need and in most cases people overdose them anyways.
    I though the discussion was about cortisol and whether it can contribute to pathology. You said it is NEVER disregulated, but I think there are quite a few cases where it seems that it is disregulated and contributed to pathology. For instance, you say that high cortisol could be due to pancreas problems. How do you know that the high cortisol is a result of pancreas issue rather than the other way around? High cortisol effectively blocks digestion and destroys pancreatic beta cells, so the inability to digest protein could be a result of the high cortisol and not a cause of it. What tests show organic pancreatic problems resulting in high cortisol vs. pancreatic problems caused by high cortisol?
    Btw, high cortisol is present in all cases of hypothyroidism due to reduced clearance. Estrogen is also high in hypothyroid people for the same reason. How did you test for hypothyroidism as a cause of high cortisol in the people you are treating/advising? Blood tests for TSH or hair tests?
     
  15. gbolduev

    gbolduev Member

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    How can people with hypothyroid have high estrogen. Estrogen is raised for ceruloplasmin. And most people have low ceruloplasmin. and thus low estrogen. Actually people with high thyroid will have high estrogen and high ceruloplasmin as fast oxidizers have and they cant tolerate well progesterone nor thyroid hormone. This is your case haidut. Estrogen is there to cap thyroid.

    The only reason and case where person gets hypothyroid because of estrogen is liver inability to clear it. That is not normal body chemistry. NOrmally if you have low thyroid, estrogen will be low , copper in blood will be low, ceruloplasmin will be low and you will be a slow oxidizer. Fast oxidizers will have high ceruloplasmin and high estrogen /

    Thyroid actually will raise estrogen levels. You can test it yourself. You go on T3 , your ceruloplasmin and your estrogen will go up to cap thyroid.

    Progesterone will be raised if your thyroid goes down. Not cortisol. Thyroid goes down when cortisol is up, because of there is no sugar. And metabolism is lowered.That is a huge difference.

    As far as tests are concerned, you have to do hair , blood and ABGs otherwise you wont know what is primary cortisol or pancreas.
     
  16. sugarbabe

    sugarbabe Member

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    What blood tests do you recommend gbolduev?
     
  17. gbolduev

    gbolduev Member

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    Janelle

    You should test , progesterone aldosterone cortisol DHEA estrogen testosterone. Free T3 free t4 TSH,PTH. Ceruloplasmin. Iron panel. insulin , sugar , Renin , ACTH. pregnenolone. And of course electrolytes.

    also ABGs

    Some people had NUTREVAL test from genova diagonistics which I found very good. I think there is a deal in the US to get it for 160 bucks with insurance
     
  18. Parsifal

    Parsifal Member

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    Could it be that thyroid will remove oestrogen from cells and then put it in the blood?
     
  19. paymanz

    paymanz Member

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    @gbolduev what type of diet you think is good in general?not for ill people, but as preventive lifestyle...
     
  20. Makrosky

    Makrosky Member

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    Nice to see you can also see the original myth/metaphor that feeds the idea. It's not easy. Congratulations. Means you have a smart mind.
     
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