Just Learned From Experience Bicarbonate Intake Isn't the Real Solution, May Even Cause Problems

[yerrag]

I've been taking magnesium bicarbonate as my preferred form of magnesium for a few years now. I've even recommended it in some posts. I've been harsh on magnesium chloride because it is an acidic load. But the past 2 weeks I've started to observe my urination - the frequency of it and its pH. And I've learned, among other things, that magnesium bicarbonate supplementation has its gotchas. My observations are not necessarily conclusions, as I don't have enough of a sample size, and certainly the evidence-based (RCT studies etc etc) guys here would have plenty of ammo to refute what I observe. But nonetheless, I will post them and I'll take flak for it.

I've taken sodium, magnesium, and potassium bicarbonate. And I've had no bad experience with them in the past. At least none that I could observe. But when I decided to find out why I was urinating so much, and why my urine pH would fluctuate so much, I was surprised that it had a lot to do with my supplementation of magnesium bicarbonate.

When I was on 400mg elemental Mg on magbicarb supplementation daily, I was urinating 12x/day. When I stopped it, I reduced my urination frequency to 9x/day. I woke up 1-2x/night instead of 3-4/night. Not only that. when I was on this, the urine pH would fluctuate from 5.5 to 6.8, whereas when I wasn't on it, the pH would fluctuate from 6.2 to 6.8 - which really surprised me.

What could be confounders is that when I began magbicarb-less, I also began to take a drop of Tyronene once after each meal, with the aim of improving my blood sugar metabolism, as I had taken a recent 5 hr OGTT (oral glucose tolerance test) and found that my blood sugar regulation was off. It could very well be that with improved blood sugar metabolism, I was making more CO2 and less lactic acid.

Another confounder could be that I began to use methylene blue and potassium iodide with red light in my mouth to kill periodontal pathogens. I would take 3 drops each of MB and SSKI (supersaturated potassium iodide) and swirl them in my mouth for a while and then swallow them. Then I'd shine a red light flashlight (TendLite brand) inside my mouth for 3 minutes. This may have reduced the infection, and the infection could be a source of acidity as well. This is my suspicion though I don't have any studies to back me up on this.

This observation surprised me so I thought I'd throw this out while fresh on my mind and not just keep it to myself.

I'm beginning to think that bicarbonate supplementation should only be therapeutic, meaning for use temporarily while a condition that caused acidity in the ecf is being addressed. It's not meant to be used as part of a permanent nutrition lifestyle. For doing so will mask the underlying condition that caused the body to be acidic. Sugar metabolism has to improve, and underlying infection -low-level (no fever) has to be detected and resolved.

Nutrition lifestyle, as far as acid-base balance goes, should revolve around having sufficient alkaline mineral intake - especially magnesium and potassium, and calcium when one is assuredly not hypothyroid, and sodium not being subject to the restrictions of conventional medicine - as these minerals help the kidneys excrete acidity out of the system. And it's best to get these minerals not from supplementation, but from foods.

If I were to take magnesium now, I'd have to get it from another source. Maybe I should consider forms I've previously rejected such as magnesium oxide.

One thing bothers me: Why is my intake bicarbonate causing more fluctuation in urine pH towards the acidic side? My observations are limited, and the confounders I mentioned may be the cause of a faulty observation, so that question may not be valid at all.

For now, I'm content with the thought that to have good acid-alkaline balance, I need to have good sugar metabolism, enough intake of minerals through food, and that I have to get rid of existing infections in my system. I'll also add inflammation.

 

[NodeCerebri]

Looking at your urination frequency and also a role of thyroid in this, I’d guess this maybe has something to do with electrolytes out of balance. I dont think the mag bicarb is here to blame.

 

[Phosphor]

I've been taking magnesium bicarbonate as my preferred form of magnesium for a few years now. I've even recommended it in some posts. I've been harsh on magnesium chloride because it is an acidic load. But the past 2 weeks I've started to observe my urination - the frequency of it and its pH. And I've learned, among other things, that magnesium bicarbonate supplementation has its gotchas. My observations are not necessarily conclusions, as I don't have enough of a sample size, and certainly the evidence-based (RCT studies etc etc) guys here would have plenty of ammo to refute what I observe. But nonetheless, I will post them and I'll take flak for it.

I've taken sodium, magnesium, and potassium bicarbonate. And I've had no bad experience with them in the past. At least none that I could observe. But when I decided to find out why I was urinating so much, and why my urine pH would fluctuate so much, I was surprised that it had a lot to do with my supplementation of magnesium bicarbonate.

When I was on 400mg elemental Mg on magbicarb supplementation daily, I was urinating 12x/day. When I stopped it, I reduced my urination frequency to 9x/day. I woke up 1-2x/night instead of 3-4/night. Not only that. when I was on this, the urine pH would fluctuate from 5.5 to 6.8, whereas when I wasn't on it, the pH would fluctuate from 6.2 to 6.8 - which really surprised me.

What could be confounders is that when I began magbicarb-less, I also began to take a drop of Tyronene once after each meal, with the aim of improving my blood sugar metabolism, as I had taken a recent 5 hr OGTT (oral glucose tolerance test) and found that my blood sugar regulation was off. It could very well be that with improved blood sugar metabolism, I was making more CO2 and less lactic acid.

Another confounder could be that I began to use methylene blue and potassium iodide with red light in my mouth to kill periodontal pathogens. I would take 3 drops each of MB and SSKI (supersaturated potassium iodide) and swirl them in my mouth for a while and then swallow them. Then I'd shine a red light flashlight (TendLite brand) inside my mouth for 3 minutes. This may have reduced the infection, and the infection could be a source of acidity as well. This is my suspicion though I don't have any studies to back me up on this.

This observation surprised me so I thought I'd throw this out while fresh on my mind and not just keep it to myself.

I'm beginning to think that bicarbonate supplementation should only be therapeutic, meaning for use temporarily while a condition that caused acidity in the ecf is being addressed. It's not meant to be used as part of a permanent nutrition lifestyle. For doing so will mask the underlying condition that caused the body to be acidic. Sugar metabolism has to improve, and underlying infection -low-level (no fever) has to be detected and resolved.

Nutrition lifestyle, as far as acid-base balance goes, should revolve around having sufficient alkaline mineral intake - especially magnesium and potassium, and calcium when one is assuredly not hypothyroid, and sodium not being subject to the restrictions of conventional medicine - as these minerals help the kidneys excrete acidity out of the system. And it's best to get these minerals not from supplementation, but from foods.

If I were to take magnesium now, I'd have to get it from another source. Maybe I should consider forms I've previously rejected such as magnesium oxide.

One thing bothers me: Why is my intake bicarbonate causing more fluctuation in urine pH towards the acidic side? My observations are limited, and the confounders I mentioned may be the cause of a faulty observation, so that question may not be valid at all.

For now, I'm content with the thought that to have good acid-alkaline balance, I need to have good sugar metabolism, enough intake of minerals through food, and that I have to get rid of existing infections in my system. I'll also add inflammation.

Just one comment on the mouth pathogens. A few years ago I was taking oral CD (chlorine dioxide) in my path to recovery from severe toxic mold exposure. I won't go into what other things the CD did, but will say that it did a totally marvelous job of killing mouth pathogens. Tooth sensitivity to hot and cold disappeared, "bad" breath was wiped out, and my dental hygenist was ecstatic over the healthy state of my mouth. Just info if anyone is interested. I made it myself daily from the raw materials. Don't know where to get them now but I have a huge supply on hand.

 

[yerrag]

Looking at your urination frequency and also a role of thyroid in this, I’d guess this maybe has something to do with electrolytes out of balance. I dont think the mag bicarb is here to blame.

Can you pls. elaborate? Interested on your take on the link between urination frequency and thyroid, as well as electrolytes being out of balance.

Just one comment on the mouth pathogens. A few years ago I was taking oral CD (chlorine dioxide) in my path to recovery from severe toxic mold exposure. I won't go into what other things the CD did, but will say that it did a totally marvelous job of killing mouth pathogens. Tooth sensitivity to hot and cold disappeared, "bad" breath was wiped out, and my dental hygenist was ecstatic over the healthy state of my mouth. Just info if anyone is interested. I made it myself daily from the raw materials. Don't know where to get them now but I have a huge supply on hand.

What was the improvement on your mouth? Less plaque? Whiter teeth? Pinker tongue instead of white tongue?

I'd tried chlorine dioxide 30ppm and it didn't do much. What was the strength you used? The sodium chlorite used can be bought at www.pforlife.com .

 

[Phosphor]

Can you pls. elaborate? Interested on your take on the link between urination frequency and thyroid, as well as electrolytes being out of balance.

What was the improvement on your mouth? Less plaque? Whiter teeth? Pinker tongue instead of white tongue?

I'd tried chlorine dioxide 30ppm and it didn't do much. What was the strength you used? The sodium chlorite used can be bought at www.pforlife.com .

I didn't have a white tongue and the difference was not in appearance. It was in the exit of temperature sensitivity and less than wonderful breath odor, and the comments of my hygenist who said "just keep doing what you're doing." I've never had thrush or mouth fungus that I know of. All bacterial.
I have the two components it's made of, the citric acid and the sodium chlorite. One drop each on top of each other in a shot glass, 20 seconds or so until it turns distinctly yellow, fill the glass (or more) and swish like mouthwash. When I was taking it internally (Rivera protocol,) over the course of a year my eyes changed color (less green and more blue) and I got rid of TONS of parasites (ascaris primarily.) I assume it oxidized sulfur because of the eye color change. Since I'm CBS A360A +\+, the buildup of sulfur makes sense. (I'm 71 now, was in my 60s then.) I don't know what 30ppm would be compared to what I did; all my experience comes from the Rivera protocol.

 

[yerrag]

I didn't have a white tongue and the difference was not in appearance. It was in the exit of temperature sensitivity and less than wonderful breath odor, and the comments of my hygenist who said "just keep doing what you're doing." I've never had thrush or mouth fungus that I know of. All bacterial.
I have the two components it's made of, the citric acid and the sodium chlorite. One drop each on top of each other in a shot glass, 20 seconds or so until it turns distinctly yellow, fill the glass (or more) and swish like mouthwash. When I was taking it internally (Rivera protocol,) over the course of a year my eyes changed color (less green and more blue) and I got rid of TONS of parasites (ascaris primarily.) I assume it oxidized sulfur because of the eye color change. Since I'm CBS A360A +\+, the buildup of sulfur makes sense. (I'm 71 now, was in my 60s then.) I don't know what 30ppm would be compared to what I did; all my experience comes from the Rivera protocol.

Oh yes, you mentioned that. Sorry.

I was taking orally CDS (chlorine dioxide solution, which is a successor to MMS, and to CD - yours in MMS) where the chloride dioxide is dissolved in water in a 3000 ppm solution) to rid pathogens in my system. I couldn't tell if it did, except for lower urination rate which would indicate to me that it's doing some antibiotic action. But after about 40 days of use, I had to stop as it was increasing my blood pressure (probably the chlorine ending up producing more HOCl- and ending up giving oxidative stress on surrounding tissues). I also notice my eyes turning more red, the effect only I would get when I swim in a chlorinated swimming pool (but not as bad).

Still, it still has its good uses for a different context.

Here is a video of Kalcker showing how to make CDS: How to make CDS ? with Andreas Kalcker

Some people have stomach reactions to taking MMS, so making CDS would eliminate that as CDS does not contain any leftover sodium chlorite nor citric acid. I currently use CDS applied to my face. I have some warts and skin blemishes. Not sure if it will work, but it's worth a try.

 

[NodeCerebri]

Can you pls. elaborate? Interested on your take on the link between urination frequency and thyroid, as well as electrolytes ..

I’ll try to make it Short by telling my personal experience, but science backs this up of course:
Whenever I take thyroid or my thyroid is more active than it usually is, I get to pee more often and also huge amounts, especially when I don’t support all the co-factors like supporting the adrenals and supporting the liver, getting enough nutrients and electrolytes, particularly salt!
I just needed to correct this state by drinking less water, sometimes just 1 cup a day without noticing bad side effects, just peeing less. I reloaded my body with all that stuff it needed, which can be different for everyone of course. I took care of all the electrolytes and their balance (potassium and sodium was at the low end), so after a certain time I could increase my fluid intake without hourly peeing out everything again!
I think every human in the modern world has some sort of inflammation going on in his body due to imbalances, I think key is to bring everything in balance again. And whenever I read something with frequent urination, this makes me think of this. Maybe this helps you to get another perspective to shine a light OJ your healing journey :) ?

 

[yerrag]

I’ll try to make it Short by telling my personal experience, but science backs this up of course:
Whenever I take thyroid or my thyroid is more active than it usually is, I get to pee more often and also huge amounts, especially when I don’t support all the co-factors like supporting the adrenals and supporting the liver, getting enough nutrients and electrolytes, particularly salt!
I just needed to correct this state by drinking less water, sometimes just 1 cup a day without noticing bad side effects, just peeing less. I reloaded my body with all that stuff it needed, which can be different for everyone of course. I took care of all the electrolytes and their balance (potassium and sodium was at the low end), so after a certain time I could increase my fluid intake without hourly peeing out everything again!
I think every human in the modern world has some sort of inflammation going on in his body due to imbalances, I think key is to bring everything in balance again. And whenever I read something with frequent urination, this makes me think of this. Maybe this helps you to get another perspective to shine a light OJ your healing journey :) ?

Thanks for sharing your experience and insight. While it's true that electrolyte imbalance is a big factor, I believe I have that resolved after taking potassium supplementation and through food intake. That problem, ironically, came from too much urination over a period of one year. But that one year - it was caused by an increase in planktonic bacteria in my blood from bacteria (and immune complexes) from use of systemic proteolytic enzymes, which would lyse plaque and release the embedded bacteria. Just to say there are myriad causes to excess urination, and to muddle through this maze, one has to understand one's own context.

But as to water intake, I should try doing a reset by even outdoing what you suggest, and do a dry fast for say, 3 days.

Also, I have to be more aware of limiting my water intake. I'm not the minimum 8 glasses a day kind of guy, and would rather be guided by thirst. Even so, I could easily end up drinking too much water just by downing various supplements during the day and not realize it.

So, instead of going by the habit of a glass of water with each supplement, I'd just take enough to get the supplement swallowed, and if need be, a dribble of it to remove the aftertaste. I like my Russian friend's advice of drinking by thirst. I say Russian because Westerners, especially Americans, are so deathly afraid of dehydration and overdo their hydration. A result of media deflection that tells us to exercise more and drink more water, which does relatively little to overcome the harm from the real bad stuff they push to us and keep blaming on genetics and old age. Or tell us "duuh, I don't know" because there are few evidence-based studies blah blah.

 

[NodeCerebri]

Right! Totally agree. In the recent 10-15 years everyone cares around his big bottle of water everywhere, guys in the gym drink a gallon of water every time ??‍
How did you realize that you suffer from the release of those bacteria into your bloodstream? Do you have somehow the chance to donate blood, without it being used in another human?

 

[Christoph]

I have some history with both sodium and magnesium bicarbonate. Starting with sodium, I got it in my head that I should experiment with some sodium bicarbonate (baking soda) and I tried taking a hot bath with a few cups of baking soda. I observed improving skin tone and quite a bit of energy. In fact, I loved it so much, that I also started using a combination of sodium bicarbonate and magnesium chloride in my nebulizer on a daily basis. That all worked well for a couple of weeks. Thereafter, I started waking up in the middle of the night, 02:30 to 03:00, and couldn't fall back asleep. After a week of this, I figured that I might be alkalizing too much so I dropped the baking soda, and within a couple of days, my sleep stabilized and I was able to sleep through the night again. Hence, I'm very wary of over alkalization.

I've had a much better experience with magnesium bicarbonate, and I've finally figured out how to really improve my health. Like many, I don't buy my magnesium bicarbonate, I make it. Many on this forum are familiar with the formula, sparking water + magnesium hydroxide. The real problem is doing it right. Firstly, it's easy to over do the magnesium hydroxide and end up with a cloudy laxative milkshake, disgusting and tough on the gut. Most bottled waters don't have enough carbonation to deal with the 1 tsp of magnesium hydroxide powder per liter. I decided that I needed more CO2.

That's when I bought a Soda Stream, the cheap low-end model, and started experimenting. I cool down filtered tap water, and when at 2-3 degrees C, carbonate it with the Soda Stream, add a tsp of Bulk Supplements magnesium hydroxide, shake vigorously, and refrigerate. After 30-60 minutes, carbonate again until the pressure-relief valve kicks in, and refrigerate again. Repeat until it's crystal clear and remains reliably bubbly. Ensuring the sparkle is an important part of doing it right. I've noticed the taste of water containing magnesium hydroxide in both cloudy and clear bottles. I decided to continue carbonating the water to ensure that all of the magnesium hydroxide is combined with CO2. The resulting sparking water tastes great, and I don't seem too suffer any problems associated with over alkalization. Another benefit of extra carbonation is the balance of acidity of the CO3 against the alkalization of the HCO3.

There are times when my taste buds have no interest in magnesium bicarbonate. In such cases, I sip a glass of water with 1/4 tsp of magnesium chloride, it's quite acidic. One or two doses of such water usually turns me back to magnesium bicarbonate. Using this approach, I'm not over alkalizing.

 

[yerrag]

How did you realize that you suffer from the release of those bacteria into your bloodstream? Do you have somehow the chance to donate blood, without it being used in another human?

Before COVID, it was no hassle to go to the nearest diagnotstics lab to take a CBC to monitor changes in my wbc. When I took my proteolytic enzymes, I saw the neutrophils go up, which indicates higher bacterial infection. When I took ZymEssence 3x/day, I didn't notice much change in the neutrophils, yet my blood pressure was going up. When I took serrapeptase for only once and for a day only, I found my neutrophils go wap up from 75 to 11. It made me realize that there are side-effects to the lysing of plaque. I suspect that people don't ever lyse their plaque, and it's only during old age when the blood vessels weaken, that the plaque gets loose like plaster would peel from a concrete wall, and that's when sepsis occurs. Since doctors don't ever get us to lyse plaque (as it's nothing urgent for them), the buildup of plaque keeps increasing and at a certain point, if we're still alive, the plaque will peel off and set off a chain of reactions, like blockage of arteries, or sepsis. Sepsis occurs often with people seriously low in immunity, because by then the blood vessels are crumbly and the loosening plaque lets off plenty of bacteria heretofore dormant.

 

[NodeCerebri]

Before COVID, it was no hassle to go to the nearest diagnotstics lab to take a CBC to monitor changes in my wbc. When I took my proteolytic enzymes, I saw the neutrophils go up, which indicates higher bacterial infection. When I took ZymEssence 3x/day, I didn't notice much change in the neutrophils, yet my blood pressure was going up. When I took serrapeptase for only once and for a day only, I found my neutrophils go wap up from 75 to 11. It made me realize that there are side-effects to the lysing of plaque. I suspect that people don't ever lyse their plaque, and it's only during old age when the blood vessels weaken, that the plaque gets loose like plaster would peel from a concrete wall, and that's when sepsis occurs. Since doctors don't ever get us to lyse plaque (as it's nothing urgent for them), the buildup of plaque keeps increasing and at a certain point, if we're still alive, the plaque will peel off and set off a chain of reactions, like blockage of arteries, or sepsis. Sepsis occurs often with people seriously low in immunity, because by then the blood vessels are crumbly and the loosening plaque lets off plenty of bacteria heretofore dormant.

Wow, made me think, thanks!

 

[yerrag]

Wow, made me think, thanks!

You're welcome.

I forgot to say that arterial plaque is as certain as water pipes developing internal scales over time. But not all plaque harbor a lot of bacteria. I happen to harbor a lot because of periodontal disease, where the bacteria from the periodontal space in the mouth would grow into a colony, and constantly spew bacteria into the blood stream. It would not be farfetched to think that these bacteria would latch on to the blood vessels walls and grow a colony, and develop biofilm to protect itself from the immune system. If I knew how to care for my teeth that comes with an understanding of having good calcium balance as well as low gut bacteria and endotoxins, I would not have bacteria in my blood vessels.

I think that if someone has a high wbc count and and a high neutrophil count, as well as high monocyte count, he is more likely to have bacteria residing in his arterial plaque, or that he has an existing periodontal infection that is latent. There's also the issue of having a permeable gut that lets in bacteria and endotoxins from the gut. A way to test for bacteria and immune complexes in plaque is to do what I did - to take a serrapeptase capsue of high strength - 120,000 units (off-hand figure) and then a few days later take a CBC and check wbc and neutrophils to see if these values jumped up.

 

[LLight]

What was the improvement on your mouth? Less plaque? Whiter teeth? Pinker tongue instead of white tongue?

What would less plaque indicate?

If you are interested, the book Chronic by Steven Phillips is out:

Autoimmune disease and chronic illness is a global pandemic. What is fueling it?

In this timely book, Steven Phillips, MD, and his former patient, Sony singer-songwriter Dana Parish, reveal striking evidence that a broad range of common infections, from COVID-19 to Lyme and many others, cause a variety of autoimmune, psychiatric, and chronic conditions. Chronic explores the science behind what makes them difficult to diagnose and treat, debunks widely held beliefs by doctors and patients alike, and provides solutions that empower sufferers to reclaim their lives.

Dr. Phillips was already an internationally renowned physician specializing in complex, chronic diseases when he became a patient himself. After nearly dying from his own mystery illness, he experienced firsthand the medical community’s ignorance about the pathogens that underlie a deep spectrum of serious conditions—from fibromyalgia, multiple sclerosis, chronic fatigue syndrome, rheumatoid arthritis, and lupus, to depression, anxiety, OCD and neurodegenerative disorders. Parish, too, watched her health spiral after twelve top doctors missed an underlying infection that caused heart failure and other sudden debilitating physical and psychiatric symptoms. Now, they’ve come together with a mission: to change the current model of simply treating symptoms—often with dangerous, lifelong drugs—and shift the focus to finding and curing root causes of chronic diseases that affect millions around the world.

There seems to be a part about antibiotics and herbal treatments.

 

[yerrag]

What would less plaque indicate?

I think it would indicate less endotoxins.

I used to think the tendency to plaque was a genetic thing, from something I read in the past. Now I know it isn't.

Since joing RPF and learning more from Peat on his take on plaque being caused by endotoxins, the idea of which made me scoff, I've seen much less plaque buildup for a while already.

The connection is hard to see, but eventually I saw the light.

If you are interested, the book Chronic by Steven Phillips is out:

It piqued my interest. I read the Goodread reviews, which are better than those at Amazon. It left me with the impression it is very much focused on Lyme's Disease. I wasn't sure if I could still benefit from learning the approach taken and the common thread of it being an infectious disease that has autoimmune effect implications. There were no reviews that could better inform me on that aspect.

I should ask the Goodread reviewers.

It's good to see a doctor take this path of inquiry and discovery and share it.

Thanks for sharing.

 

[Parrot]

When I took serrapeptase for only once and for a day only, I found my neutrophils go wap up from 75 to 11. It made me realize that there are side-effects to the lysing of plaque. I suspect that people don't ever lyse their plaque, and it's only during old age when the blood vessels weaken, that the plaque gets loose like plaster would peel from a concrete wall, and that's when sepsis occurs.

So what did this lead you to deduce about serrapeptase? I have been taking this for a few months now and notice I have been needing to urinate more frequently

 

[yerrag]

So what did this lead you to deduce about serrapeptase? I have been taking this for a few months now and notice I have been needing to urinate more frequently

It was lysing plaque and as plaque is being lysed, dormant bacteria was being released and turning into active planktonic (not in biofilm but in the blood stream) bacteria. It was also releasing immune complexes which would accumulate in the kidneys and cause inflammation.

 

[Parrot]

Thanks for that. So, does that mean, in your opinion, that serrapeptase should be avoided or only taken in short bursts?

 

[yerrag]

Thanks for that. So, does that mean, in your opinion, that serrapeptase should be avoided or only taken in short bursts?

It depends on the person's condition. I happen to have bacteria and immune complexes as part of my plaque, so I have such side effects.

I would still want to lyse the plaque, but have to accompany taking serrapeptase with something that can deal with the bacteria and the immune complexes.

 

[Cloudhands]

I didnt read all of the comments, but making sure to only salt to taste, and not any more then that stopped my frequent urination. I was previously salting a lot, thinking that it would help me stay warmer, but instead it just made me pee a ton, and then id supplement potassium/mag/sodium bicarb just to titrate the acidity but now i dont use either and pee less. Im thinking of giving up dairy as well and experimenting with raw leaves instead which might help.