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Body Ph - Help To Understand Alkalinizing Supplements

Discussion in 'Ask For Help or Advice' started by newbie, Jan 7, 2019.

  1. newbie

    newbie Member

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    I have been testing urine ph for years and it is always below 6, at morning or night. Some days it even doesn't move above 5.5 whole day. I decided to start with alkalinizing supplements to prevent further calcium lose from bones. But I have difficult to understand how it works.

    I find that usual supplements are potassium, calcium and magnesium citrates. I take magnesium citrate for from company NOW. Old formula of their magnesium citrate was very acid, if I mixed the powder with water it showed ph around 5. The new formula shows it is very alkaline, ph around 8 when mixed with water. I guess because with new formula the amount of citric acid buffered to magnesium is in lower ratio.

    From what I understand it doesn't matter ph of food/supplement before digested but it is about whether acidic or alkaline byproducts are created once it is digested. So even if one magnesium citrate mixed with water has acidic ph 5 before digested and another has alkaline ph 8, both will result in lowering urine ph. Am I correct?

    Now I am wondering, does it need to be magnesium citrate or can I use magnesium glycinate? Is it better calcium citrate or calcium carbonate? How do you know which mineral creates acidic and which alkaline byproducts?

    tnx!
     
  2. tara

    tara Member

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    I think Peat had reservations about the effects of citrate.

    There are several threads with people's experiences with various forms of magnesium and calcium.

    I think the form can influence what the overall effect on pH balance in body will be.

    If you are aiming at alkalinsing, I would guess that other forms than citrates might be worth trying. I also suspect the body may prefer not to just get a single form. Foods can be good too.
    I have woefully inadequate chemistry and biochemistry training, but I'd expect the carbonates to be less acidic/more alkalinising than the citrates. Not sure about the gycinate.
    Since you are testing your UpH, you can see the effects on yourself.
    I think both Ray Peat and Carey Reams (RBTI) seemed to favour a similar range for average UpH (~6.3-6.7).
     
  3. managing

    managing Member

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    if you are dissolving in water and testing the pH I hope that, in addition to standardizing by weight that you are using distilled water.
     
  4. gilson d dantas

    gilson d dantas Member

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    I think Tara is correct. Actually, I would prefer sodium bicarbonate [baking soda].
     
  5. yerrag

    yerrag Member

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    Alkalizing for me involves intake of the four electrolyte cations magnesium, calcium, potassium, and sodium; and the bicarbonate anion. If other anions are to be used, organic anions are preferred so that the effect, after the anion is metabolized, is neutral. This is because organic anions metabolize into carbon dioxide and water. There are exceptions though, as in the case of KCl and NaCl, as the absorption by the gut of the cation and anion are about equal, such that it doesn't create an acidic load. This contrasts with the case of MgCl2 and CaCl2, where the gut absorbs more the chloride anions than the anions, thus requiring H+ ions to be absorbed into the gut, creating an acid load. Other anions that can be useful are chelates, such as glycinate. Chelates contain amino acids, and can be useful when the chelate can help with a condition. In the case of glycinate, it is useful for the nerves, for example. But chelates are high in molecular weight, and so taking a mineral chelate may requires a large amount of the compound to be taken, as the mineral portion is about 15% only of the total weight.

    Of the four electrolyte minerals, sodium needs can easily be met by salting foods to taste, so sodium supplementation is hardly needed unless one finds it convenient to using baking soda (sodium bicarbonate) as a source of bicarbonate. The need for bicarbonate varies depending on the acid-base balance condition of the individual. When there's no need and bicarbonate is taken, it could push the body towards a state of metabolic alkalosis. In my opinion, it helps to have a urine pH test strip handy, so that one can determine the right dosage of bicarbonate. A urine pH of 6.4- 6.8 is a good range to target.

    Potassium requirements can easily be met by eating more fruits and vegetables. Since eating fruits and vegetables require more effort, juicing them would be an easier way to get large intakes of potassium. Additionally, this reduced the intake of fiber, which is helpful as too much fiber can increase endotoxin load. I prefer fruit juice over vegetable juice because fruits contain a lot more sugar. With vegetable juice, I have to add sugar. Potassium intake without corresponding sugar intake leaves me feeling low in blood sugar, as potassium has an insulin-like effect in that it gets sugar to be absorbed and metabolized more quickly. In case supplementation is needed, potassium chloride, potassium bicarbonate, and potassium ascorbate are some good choices. Potassium bicarbonate is helpful when bicarbonates are needed, and potassium ascorbate is recommended by Pantellini to combat cancer. One word of warning: some prescription drugs raise serum potassium levels, so large potassium intake is not advised. Same thing with people with renal conditions that inhibit potassium excretion through urine.

    Calcium and magnesium are electrolytes that I find hard to meet in terms of my daily requirements. I still eat large quantities of cooked greens, but at the amount I can tolerate eating, needs are not yet met. I drink only a glass of milk and no cheese, and eat dried anchovy at breakfast at times, so my calcium needs are still not met. For calcium, I find it easiest to take in eggshell powder (calcium carbonate). 5000 mg of eggshell powder is equivalent to 1600mg of calcium. I usually take 3000 mg a day, split into 3 portions. I just put in water and stir and gulp. I recently started doing this. I'm not sure, but it seemed to me it increased my heart rate (perhaps it's because I was cautious with calcium, and when I took the plunge, my body was telling me "What took you this long?"lol). Caution: Be sure you're not hypothyroid before taking in calcium supplementation. In a hypothyroid condition, the body isn't producing enough carbon dioxide as a product of oxidative metabolism. Endogenous carbon dioxide production inside the cell is needed to carry out calcium (and sodium) from the cell. Without the benefit of CO2, calcium that accumulates inside the cell will lead to calcification. Another form of calcium I consider safe to use is calcium ascorbate.

    Lastly, magnesium supplementation I have used and can recommend are: magnesium bicarbonate, magnesium glycinate, magnesium ascorbate, magnesium succinate, and magnesium acetate. The easiest to make are magnesium acetate, magnesium ascorbate, and magnesium succinate. Following that is magnesium bicarbonate (soda water is needed, but a carbonator setup is better to have). Magnesium glycinate is to be purchased, as it's hard to make. Magnesium acetate is made by mixing magnesium carbonate and 20% acetic acid in water. Magnesium ascorbate by magnesium carbonate and ascorbic acid. Magnesium succinate by mixing magnesium carbonate and succinic acid. Magnesium bicarbonate is made by putting magnesium hydroxide in a PET bottle and filling the PET bottle with CO2 with a carbonator setup. Succinic acid paired with magnesium is a powerful metabolic booster. Being sufficient in magnesium stores in the body is a prerequisite for potassium to be absorbed by the body. Magnesium and vitamin b6 together is useful for getting rid of calcification.
     
  6. gilson d dantas

    gilson d dantas Member

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    = I think if you are Hipothyroid, you need more salt [sodium], then, if it is the case, baking soda is a good option [sodium+bicarbonate ion]. Always checking the pH of the urine, avoiding more than 6,8.

    If I am hypothiroid or other condition, I´ll avoid systematically the vegetables [by the antinutrients and fibers; those with the bacterial load]. I´ll always prefer sweet fruit juice to get the potassium. And I also try to minimize the use of supplements [they bring industrial stuff, chemical additives]. Less industrial supplements, better.
    Why not to drink more milk? A quarter, daily, for instance?
    = Why not the cooked greens [water]? It is the easiest way to have magnesium and brings calcium and vitamin K2... [And all those acetates, succinates etc may bring to our body chemical solvents and additives; if we can avoid chelates I think is better to avoid it]. I use to blend eggs shell with the water of the cooked kal [greens] every day.
    Not necessarily we need all of it when we want to alcalinize. I think Peat said something about that. But may be I´m wrong.
     
  7. yerrag

    yerrag Member

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    Well, yes, but more on the baking soda, on account of the bicarbonate, isn't it? As hypothyroid means less CO2 production?

    There would be a heavier emphais for a hypothyroid, but it still applies to all - avoiding fibers, unless it comes with a lot of good, such as cooked greens. We're on the same page in our preference for fruits over vegetables, over and above the use of supplementation for potassium. It is very doable.
    I don't trust my milk. It's UHT. Fresh raw milk is too expensive. Cuts too deep into my budget. Fully grown mammals don't have to drink milk to maintain their calcium health. They eat the bones. I think the closest thing to mimicking them is to eat eggshell powder. As well as eat small fish whole. I eat dry anchovies.
    It's a good idea. I started recently to use the water used to cook my greens to cook my rice. I think Ray Peat said that most of the minerals go to the water used to cook the greens. There's no vitamin k2 in greens, just k1 though. However, k1 is still good.

    Your concern on contaminants is a valid one though. I think that getting enough magnesium from food is possible only when the 400 mg daily goal is the target, for maintenance. But when one needs to go on a therapeutic dosage to build up magnesium stores (such as daily 1000mg), supplementation would still be helpful. Minimizing on contaminants would be helpful by choosing grades that have less contaminants. Getting USP or BP over Food Grade, for example. Food grade is something that passes for food for animals, as animals don't complain.
    Yes, Ray has said something to that effect. But to me it sounds more like Ray allowing the body's adaptive mechanism to compensate for some mineral imbalances. He was saying that as long as sodium and calcium (I think) needs are met, the rest will be fine. But he would often mention magnesium as needed for energy, so I think there's a lot of latitude in how we want to interpret what he says.
     
  8. gilson d dantas

    gilson d dantas Member

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    Yes, OK. But "fully grown mammals" apart, the true is that milk, for us, still being the best way to calcium healt [with good balance with phosphate].

    “The alkali minerals can substitute to a great extent for each other, so a slight excess of magnesium or sodium or potassium will help to spare calcium in a stress situation. And calcium can likewise make up for a deficiency of one of the others. For example, if you’re having cramps, it might essentially be a magnesium deficiency. But you can often stop the cramp with just baking soda (or salty water) or milk (for the calcium) or fruit (for the high potassium content). It lets you re-arrange the balance of your alkaline minerals and helps to make up for a crisis deficiency of one of them”. Milk, Calcium and Hormones - East West Healing, 3rd June 2011
     
  9. tankasnowgod

    tankasnowgod Member

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    I don't think Acidic Urine pH necessarily correlates with losing calcium from bones. Nor will it necessarily line up with pH of other parts of the body.

    Listening to this clip from Ray Peat, a higher pH in urine doesn't sound like a good thing, as it will more likely lead to stone formation. In fact, he suggests a pH around 5 is quite good-

     
  10. Dave Clark

    Dave Clark Member

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    I don't know much about this Ph testing, but the experts that I respect have said that your saliva should be alkaline and your urine should be on the acidic side.
     
  11. Luk3

    Luk3 Member

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    Does anyone know how long baking soda neutralises stomach acid for?
     
  12. tara

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    I think this is contextual.
    Sometimes the fibre in fruit and veges helps move things on, and helps absorb and carry out bile etc, and so can reduce endotoxin (and estrogen) load compared with having less fibre and slower transit. Other times some kinds of fibre feeding the bacteria or irritating the gut may outweigh that.
    I think it's another case of watching one's personal system - aiming for good transit speed without too much irritation and bacterial stagnation.

    I think Carey Reams (RBTI) said that the optimal healing range for saliva, away from meals etc, was also 6.4 - 6.8. I don't know how much weight to put on that, but his UpH range agrees with Peat's.
     
  13. yerrag

    yerrag Member

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    I grew up eating lots of pineapple, eating it after every meal. I never had problems with my digestion or with fecal elimination. No constipation nor loose stools. No heartburn, though there was a fleeting moment with acid reflux. I belched a lot more in the past though, now I rarely belch. My stools, since being on little fiber (cooked greens have fiber, but the magnesium and calcium from it overweighs the fiber in it), aren't as foul smelling anymore. All these considered, I'm a lot better off minimizing fiber in what I eat.

    And those are the more noticeable aspect of it. I could be wrong, but as I look back, it would have helped me with my oral health. Peat would say that endotoxins are a cause of periodontal infection and issues, and I didn't believe him at first. But when I did more research on it to prove him wrong, I found that there are many references found that support his thinking. I've lost four teeth to periodontal issues, and I believe had I been aware of this, I would have eaten less fiber and actively sought to reduce endotoxin load.

    Lastly, we shouldn't be relying on fiber to increase transit time. We should instead be relying on the intestinal muscles to provide peristaltic action to move our bowels. Having the energy to do that available is more important, and this goes down to having good metabolism.
     
  14. tankasnowgod

    tankasnowgod Member

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    Think the enzymes in pineapple helped? It's really high in bromelain.
     
  15. tara

    tara Member

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    And it's not just having strong peristaltic action for transit, its also having little enough irritation and swelling in the gut that the lumen is wide enough to allow good flow. It may well be that in good enough health, with a good enough diet, not so much fibre is required.
    But since some of us don't have either, we are playing a balance with what we've got.

    I eat less fibre now than I did a few years ago - mainly a lot fewer whole grains, but also less raw veges. And my digestion is happier. But still, for me ATM, I feel as though my blood sugars, energy and gut transit go better if I eat fruit and veges (often cooked) and limit the fruit juice.
    Not saying you or anyone else should do the same, just that it's good to notice how it works for each of us, rather than rely entirely on a (partial) theory.

    Some supplements, such as Mg ascorbate, tend to stimulate transit too, without any fibre being involved.
     
  16. Cirion

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    I don't think avoiding all fiber makes sense or is practical long term. Besides, the top recommendation of eating fruit should give you most or all the fiber you may need without having to go out of your way to get it.

    I achieved good alkalinity just by applying the Peat principles honestly. If I had to say what really did it though, I'd guess probably the fruit. I tested my pH level last after having quite a lot of grapes in particular.
     
  17. yerrag

    yerrag Member

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    The bromelain helps a lot, especially when enzyme production lessens with age. I'd have my mom and dad on fresh pineapple juice before they eat. I found that I can reduce or eliminate the use of digestive enzymes. Before he was on digestive enzymes, he had rashes. With digestive enzymes, the rashes diappeared. I replaced the digestive enzymes at one point, and the rashes didn't reappear.

    Since I'd not had digestive problems yet, I wasn't taking pineapple or drinking it before meals, although I should. It's safer for me to believe that our lifetime enzyme stores are limited, so it helps to conserve the use of enzymes for digestion. So eating/drinking fresh fruits like pineapples, mangoes, papaya, and guavas provide protease enzymes that pasteurized fruits and juices don't. And with the papaya, the unripe papaya is richer in papain. I like Thai green papaya salad, which is peaty - it has papaya strips (julienned, not peeled), in lemon juice, sugar, fish sauce, dried small shrimp, tomatoes, and coarsely ground peanuts.

    I'd also like to eat raw beef and goat meat, as well as raw fish, as the enzymes come with them, but it just involves a reset of my lifestyle. Just haven't found time to do it as it's the least of my concerns, yet. Still working on the fixing aspect on my health than on the improving part of it.
    I agree with you that fiber would help. I was on brown rice for twenty years because it helped slow digestion and assimilation of sugar into blood. And this slow and steady conversion of starch into blood sugar helped me a lot then. The trickling in of sugar into the blood after eating ensured I had a constant supply of dietary sugar, and this helped compensate for my body's tendency to have sugars highs and sugar lows, pretty much resulting from a faulty sugar metabolism.

    The fiber would slow digestion, but then would help with improving bowel movement. So, it's easy to see the immediate positive effects. That was what I saw with fiber, mainly on the positive end. I was singing praises of everything fiber then - until Ray Peat came along. Once I found I can be released from the fiber "crutch," I ditched fiber and only allowed it when it came with something that would benefit me, such as cooked greens.

    Since we realize already fiber's downside, we're fine-tuning our use of it to where we get the benefit of it without it becoming unduly harmed by it. It's the understanding that it is a double-edged sword that makes us use fiber to our advantage. Without the understanding, people stay dependent on its use and even take psyllium supplements to their detriment.
     
  18. tankasnowgod

    tankasnowgod Member

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    How did you test your pH level?
     
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