Calcium And Magnesium Together - Why?

Discussion in 'Minerals' started by yerrag, May 28, 2018.

  1. yerrag

    yerrag Member

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2016
    Messages:
    5,488
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Manila
    I've heard before that when you take calcium, you need to take it with magnesium. It didn't really register with me why. But lately, after going thru some links in @Amazoniac 's thread of the Primary Sources of Acidity..., and after going through a week of magnesium bicarbonate supplementation, I'm beginning to see why these two needs to be taken together. I'm not going to discuss the ratio now, as it is beyond my scope here. I just want to go through the qualitative aspects of it.

    First, as I've been working my way up to therapeutic levels of magnesium supplementation at around 1200mg/day, I've found it necessary to gradually increasing the dose I take each time. Too much individual dosing easily causes loose bowel movement. If I'm taking it with meals, I'll do it 3 times daily and that will be my daily dosage. I'm currently at 800mg/day, and I'm a little impatient getting to 1200mg/day. I don't even know if I'll hit that goal, with loose bowel movement (LBM) being the reason.

    Then I remembered that calcium is constipatory just as magnesium has an opposing laxative effect. Hmmm

    Secondly, I turned the pages on a an article by Thomas Remer, courtesy of Amazoniac, "Influence of nutrition on acid-base balance – metabolic aspects" found on the first posts on the thread I mentioned, and found that the absorption rate of calcium, at 0.25, is close to the absorption rate of magnesium, at 0.32. This contrasts with the absorption rate of potassium at 0.80, and sodium, at 0.95. I thought this to be interesting, as if I take equal molar amounts of calcium and magnesium, I might be able to keep calcium from being constipatory, as well as keep magnesium from having a laxative effect.

    Thirdly, Ray Peat has mentioned magnesium and calcium to be somewhat of a pair (I'm paraphrasing here) where magnesium resides inside the cell while calcium outside the cell to balance each other, just as potassium stays inside, while sodium stays outside to balance each other out. This is especially important for the heart to pump well, as the proper contraction and relaxation of heart muscles depend on these electrolytes being present in the right place.

    Over the next few weeks, aside from making DIY magnesium bicarbonate, I'll also be DIYing calcium bicarbonate. I'll be mixing calcium bicarbonate with magnesium bicarbonate to see if I could increase my magnesium intake with less risk of LBM.

    My goal here is to use calcium bicarbonate to aid my intake of magnesium bicarbonate. The benefit from calcium intake is secondary, even while I expect it to be beneficial as well.

    There is risk of irregular heart beat taking magnesium, and I have experienced that. I will be monitoring with my blood pressure monitor, which would give me a warning when they detect arrhythmia.

    Excessive magnesium intake may have other bad consequences so I'll just keep my upper limit of magnesium intake to 1200mg/day. This is a conservative therapeutic dose already as I have read Mark Sircus and he has mentioned therapeutic levels ranging from 1500-3000mg/day.

    I'll let you know how this goes.
     
  2. Elize

    Elize Member

    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2016
    Messages:
    624
    Gender:
    Female
    Thanks for the information

    I.take slow Release T3. How do I take Calcium and magnesium.

    Thanks
    Elize
     
  3. OP
    yerrag

    yerrag Member

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2016
    Messages:
    5,488
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Manila
    This week I took magnesium bicarbonate together with calcium bicarbonate. Mag bi was made by the reaction of magnesium hydroxide and CO2 (in carbonated water) while calcium bicarbonate by the reaction of calcium carbonate and CO2 (in carbonated water).

    I was taking 315mg elemental magnesium and 100mg elemental calcium after each of 3 meals. I notice that my stools are more firm as compared to when I was taking only magnesium.

    Next week, I'll increased to 350mg elemental magnesium, but maintain calcium at 100mg, and observe.
     
  4. Mossy

    Mossy Member

    Joined:
    Jun 2, 2017
    Messages:
    951
    Gender:
    Male
    Thanks for sharing.

    I've made some magnesium bicarbonate, but it definitely affects my heart, giving me palpitations, no matter how small the dose. They're not large palpitations, but I would like to prevent this. Do you feel, or has it been your experience, that calcium bicarbonate counters the palpitations or irregular heart beat?

    P.S. I forgot to ask, do you feel milk would be a sufficient source of calcium, versus calcium bicarbonate? Sufficient to balance the magnesium, that is.
     
  5. OP
    yerrag

    yerrag Member

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2016
    Messages:
    5,488
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Manila
    I haven't gone to the point of feeling palpitations, but my blood pressure monitor would detect irregular heart beat when I take magnesium, when I was taking magnesium chloride as well as now, when I was taking magnesium bicarbonate. It doesn't always happen, but I find that when I take a banana with the magnesium, I would keep the irregular heart beat condition from being detected.

    I'm pretty sure milk works just as well since a glass of it gives about 200mg of calcium. It's easier to come by as well than calcium bicarbonate.
     
  6. Mossy

    Mossy Member

    Joined:
    Jun 2, 2017
    Messages:
    951
    Gender:
    Male
    Ok, thank you. Interesting, so, it would seem potassium is what helps you. Maybe I can test this with other potassium sources, as I’m not eating bananas currently.
     
  7. OP
    yerrag

    yerrag Member

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2016
    Messages:
    5,488
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Manila
    Potassium is what worked for me right off the bat. I didn't try the other electrolytes calcium and sodium anymore as it seemed to me that, picking up from some sources that said magnesium deficiency causes potassium not to be absorbed as it will be excreted, I just used potassium when I detected irregular heart beat from magnesium supplementation.

    Potassium from food sources is what I prefer, as it's not hard to find food that's rich in potassium - sweet potatoes, coconut water, and many other fruits. Although meat also has potassium, I'm not gobbling tons of meat for its potassium because I'm trying to reduce meat intake, to reduce acidic load. But I've read other threads about the use of potassium bicarbonate, which is available in powder or crystal form. Using this at least gives you more room to play with how much dose of potassium bicarb to pair with your magnesium bicarb intake, to find a dosage pairing that works for you.
     
  8. Albina

    Albina Member

    Joined:
    Apr 30, 2016
    Messages:
    123
    Gender:
    Female
    Thanks for this. For many years I have been taking a very small amount of chelated magnesium glycinate (100 mg elemental per day) plus a few pumps of magnesium oil at bedtime. I was using both primarily for constipation and insomnia. I, too, have been experiencing an irregular heartbeat and did not connect it to the magnesium. Usually I experience skipped beats and realize this has probably been going on since I started the magnesium. I will start adding bananas etc. to see if the potassium helps.
     
  9. OP
    yerrag

    yerrag Member

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2016
    Messages:
    5,488
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Manila
    You'Re both welcome. Please give that a try and let us know if it helped.
     
  10. Ihor

    Ihor Member

    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2018
    Messages:
    127
    Gender:
    Male
    @yerrag Hello. I have magnesium oxide powder, but it does not dissolve completely in water and leaves a precipitate. I know the options like adding soda for bicarbonate and malic or citric acids to make elemental magnesium more bioavailable, but not more. Do you know what things can be added to make it for more bioavailable form?
     
  11. OP
    yerrag

    yerrag Member

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2016
    Messages:
    5,488
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Manila
    It's not easy to make mag oxide react to form magnesium salts that are readily absorbable. The easiest form to make from easily accessed raw materials is magnesium acetate. Magnesium carbonate will react with acetic acid to form magnesium acetate. Regular vinegar is usually 5% acetic acid. It isn't as effective as a 20% acetic acid solution, as it doesn't allow all of themagnesium carbonate to react, so you'll have to allow the unreached magnesium carbonate to settle, and then decanter the solution.
     
  12. Ihor

    Ihor Member

    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2018
    Messages:
    127
    Gender:
    Male
    Does the precipitated part of magnesium oxide mean magnesium carbonate? I shook this part as much as once, but its quantity does not seem to change, does this mean that it makes sense to repeat from time to time until the precipitate dissolves completely or this doesn't happen?
     
  13. managing

    managing Member

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2014
    Messages:
    1,835
    I find that if I give it 2-5 minutes, all of the Mg Carbonate dissolves and solution is totally clear w/ no precipitate. If you change the ratio (more vinegar) and time and still have a precipitate I would worry that it is some kind of contaminant.
     
  14. managing

    managing Member

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2014
    Messages:
    1,835
    No. @yerrag is talking about starting with Mg Carbonate and reacting that with vinegar. Mg oxide is not nearly as reactive as the carbonate form. But you will never form Mg Carbonate out of oxide. Well, not unless you have the facilities to handle super critical CO2.
     
  15. Ihor

    Ihor Member

    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2018
    Messages:
    127
    Gender:
    Male
    @managing This is sad, because although it is cheap price, I would like to get at least some benefit from it, since the packaging is almost full. Is there sense to drink those undissolved part? Will di part of absorbed magnesium be there?
    The forms that I have tried before:
    Chloride, which apparently gave acid load and I often urinated, irritated skin.
    Glycinate - not bad, but it seems to irritate my stomach.
    Sulfate - the worst form, acid load + it seems the sulfate part made me copper (ceruloplasmin) deficient.
    Malate - it seems not bad, I tried it for a long time ago but more expensive than others.
    So, oxide seems doesn't have side effects, maybe minimum, and for this reason as I know from most of the biounavailable part of magnesium I will be able to get a small but bioavailable part.
     
  16. managing

    managing Member

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2014
    Messages:
    1,835
    I will say that glycinate is good for me if it is pure and I take it with food. So I buy pure, in bulk, and make my own capsules, and take it only with a meal.

    But I am not knowledgeable on the availability of Mg oxide taken in dry form.
     
  17. OP
    yerrag

    yerrag Member

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2016
    Messages:
    5,488
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Manila
    You may be right on that. It would just be a matter of convenience. Not having to wait is a big plus for me using a 20% acetic acid solution instead of a 5% acetic acid solution.
    Thanks for the good explanation.
    It's good that you have tried different forms of magnesium and observed the effects.

    One thing about magnesium oxide is that it certainly helps with relieving constipation. And for this reason, people would have good things to say about it.

    That it doesn't absorb well means the magnesium oxide stays in the gut, and that this helps with looser bowels. But that's the only thing positive about it, other than it not having "side effects." Loose bowel bowel is actually its side effect, seen positively. The reason there is no other side effect is because it doesn't get absorbed easily.

    But a good magnesium supplement is one that's highly absorbable. You want the magnesium to get into your system. If you aren't magnesium deficient, you have more energy as the enzymes in our metabolic pathways depend on having magnesium. Bowel movement that comes from having energy to make intestinal muscles contract and expand, called peristalsis, is the kind of bowel movement you want. Having unabsorbed magnesium in the gut to cause bowel movement isn't what you're looking for.

    Choosing the right form of absorbable magnesium is also important. As you have already experienced, magnesium chloride isn't good because it increases acid load on the body. Speaking of blood/ecf pH, I find that magnesium bicarbonate gives me the benefit of alkalinizing my acidic condition. But not everyone is like me, and when you know your context, and your particular condition, you may find a form of magnesium that would help deal with your condition. For example, it's said that magnesium taurate (not sure if I got this right) is good for the heart. Other threads on magnesium speak to this as well, and a search in this forum would be helpful.
     
  18. Elize

    Elize Member

    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2016
    Messages:
    624
    Gender:
    Female
    Why do I have a severe Serge of adrenaline when I use magnesium? I get a full body
    shiver and shake experience. It feels like a neurological shock to my body. I have tried all forms. Foot soaks and baths too.
     
  19. OP
    yerrag

    yerrag Member

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2016
    Messages:
    5,488
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Manila
    Have you tried increasing your potassium intake, when you take magnesium? Like a banana

    I notice a bit of arrhythmia in me when I don't take potassium with my magnesium intake. I don't sense it but my bp monitor tells me.

    Not sure about the shiver and shake and it being a surge of adrenaline. I used to experience that before. It happens when I drive straight for 3 hours. It turns out I get hypoglycemic 3 hours after a meal. Maybe in your case magnesium increased your metabolism, and this causes an increase in your usage of blood sugar, driving it down to a low sugar state, and cause you to shiver.
     
  20. Elize

    Elize Member

    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2016
    Messages:
    624
    Gender:
    Female
    Gosh thanks. So how do I deal with that? Sugar has the same effect on me.
     
Loading...