Just Learned From Experience Bicarbonate Intake Isn't the Real Solution, May Even Cause Problems

[yerrag]

I didnt read all of the comments, but making sure to only salt to taste, and not any more then that stopped my frequent urination. I was previously salting a lot, thinking that it would help me stay warmer, but instead it just made me pee a ton, and then id supplement potassium/mag/sodium bicarb just to titrate the acidity but now i dont use either and pee less. Im thinking of giving up dairy as well and experimenting with raw leaves instead which might help.

Yeah, I think we have to be more observant, even to the point of taking copious notes of our experience. Just relying on memory isn't enough as we're often biased to what should be and this blinds us to what really is happening, and that's what we should observe well and be able to use these observations to form our own conclusions, which are of more use to us. It makes us more credible to ourselves and to sharing with others our experience and conclusions.

I think that being in the forums long enough I can pretty much tell who are the ones who can form educated observations and conclusions and those who are shooting from the hip.

I think that having enough carbonic acid, CO2, and bicarbonate in our system is part of the natural healthy order of things in our body. But I have come to think also that endogenously generated carbon dioxide is the best way to establish this order. If we are not producing enough CO2 from our metabolism, that is a problem and supplementing with bicarbonate is just plastering over the problem. If we have an infection and it causes acid to be produced, taking bicarbonates to get the pH right is only plaster, it still doesn't address the underlying infection.

Bicarbonates is a useful intervention, to help in the short term, but I sense that relying on it is becoming the norm with many people. They should still actively fix their metabolism and state of infection. Relying on bicarbonate supplementation is just adding another layer of complexity to our state of health.

 

[Chad_Catholic]

I didnt read all of the comments, but making sure to only salt to taste, and not any more then that stopped my frequent urination. I was previously salting a lot, thinking that it would help me stay warmer, but instead it just made me pee a ton, and then id supplement potassium/mag/sodium bicarb just to titrate the acidity but now i dont use either and pee less. Im thinking of giving up dairy as well and experimenting with raw leaves instead which might help.

I noticed the same thing about myself--in regards to thinking that extra salt intake would be beneficial--but I started getting heart palpitations and an increase in heart rate that was not directly proportionate to the increase in body temperature, so now like you I salt to taste.

 

[Chad_Catholic]

Yeah, I think we have to be more observant, even to the point of taking copious notes of our experience. Just relying on memory isn't enough as we're often biased to what should be and this blinds us to what really is happening, and that's what we should observe well and be able to use these observations to form our own conclusions, which are of more use to us. It makes us more credible to ourselves and to sharing with others our experience and conclusions.

I think that being in the forums long enough I can pretty much tell who are the ones who can form educated observations and conclusions and those who are shooting from the hip.

I think that having enough carbonic acid, CO2, and bicarbonate in our system is part of the natural healthy order of things in our body. But I have come to think also that endogenously generated carbon dioxide is the best way to establish this order. If we are not producing enough CO2 from our metabolism, that is a problem and supplementing with bicarbonate is just plastering over the problem. If we have an infection and it causes acid to be produced, taking bicarbonates to get the pH right is only plaster, it still doesn't address the underlying infection.

Bicarbonates is a useful intervention, to help in the short term, but I sense that relying on it is becoming the norm with many people. They should still actively fix their metabolism and state of infection. Relying on bicarbonate supplementation is just adding another layer of complexity to our state of health.

I suffered from lactic acid overproduction in my gut due to four years of fasting and keto, and sodium bicarbonate has been the only thing so far to ameliorate the pain, especially the pain I would get stemming from my Vegas nerve up to my heart, which was contributing heavily to my overall stress level.

 

[yerrag]

I suffered from lactic acid overproduction in my gut

How is lactic acid produced in the gut? I always thought it's produced from glycolysis, which doesn't happen at the gut.

 

[Chad_Catholic]

How is lactic acid produced in the gut? I always thought it's produced from glycolysis, which doesn't happen at the gut.

It is also produced by lactic acid bacteria in the gut

 

[Birdie]

Thanks for sharing your experience and insight. While it's true that electrolyte imbalance is a big factor, I believe I have that resolved after taking potassium supplementation and through food intake. That problem, ironically, came from too much urination over a period of one year. But that one year - it was caused by an increase in planktonic bacteria in my blood from bacteria (and immune complexes) from use of systemic proteolytic enzymes, which would lyse plaque and release the embedded bacteria. Just to say there are myriad causes to excess urination, and to muddle through this maze, one has to understand one's own context.

But as to water intake, I should try doing a reset by even outdoing what you suggest, and do a dry fast for say, 3 days.

Also, I have to be more aware of limiting my water intake. I'm not the minimum 8 glasses a day kind of guy, and would rather be guided by thirst. Even so, I could easily end up drinking too much water just by downing various supplements during the day and not realize it.

So, instead of going by the habit of a glass of water with each supplement, I'd just take enough to get the supplement swallowed, and if need be, a dribble of it to remove the aftertaste. I like my Russian friend's advice of drinking by thirst. I say Russian because Westerners, especially Americans, are so deathly afraid of dehydration and overdo their hydration. A result of media deflection that tells us to exercise more and drink more water, which does relatively little to overcome the harm from the real bad stuff they push to us and keep blaming on genetics and old age. Or tell us "duuh, I don't know" because there are few evidence-based studies blah blah.

Just want to insert that Ray Peat recommends using thirst as your guide. I stopped drinking water and get liquid through juice and milky coffee. If I'm thirsty I might drink a little water. I usually take my morning sups with oj/bicarb. Others are with milk and pretty much the same routine yerrag uses.

 

[yerrag]

It is also produced by lactic acid bacteria in the gut

I see. I've made lactic acid bacteria myself but for use in plants. If I recall right, it's made in an anaerobic environment. There may be a lot of anaerobes inside the biofilms that line your gut.

 

[yerrag]

I suffered from lactic acid overproduction in my gut due to four years of fasting and keto, and sodium bicarbonate has been the only thing so far to ameliorate the pain, especially the pain I would get stemming from my Vegas nerve up to my heart, which was contributing heavily to my overall stress level.

I forgot about the lactobacilli bacteria usually considered as probiotics. They produce lactic acid. You are saying that you produce too much lactic acid in the gut. How did you determine this to be your context?

 

[Chad_Catholic]

I deduced this as a result of the constant pain that I was getting stemming from my stomach and moving up toward my vagus nerve, that was only relieved with the consumption of sodium bicarbonate. It might be a stretch, but I think I might have some form of stomach or colon cancer, and my reasoning for that would revolve around how I developed serious pain in the ileocecal region of my abdomen following a day of taking three 325 mg aspirin pills--you can check out my thread, Does anyone have an appendicitis cure ? Not long after developing the stomach pain, I developed a fungal infection on my tongue that matches nearly exactly the picture below:

 

[yerrag]

I deduced this as a result of the constant pain that I was getting stemming from my stomach and moving up toward my vagus nerve, that was only relieved with the consumption of sodium bicarbonate. It might be a stretch, but I think I might have some form of stomach or colon cancer, and my reasoning for that would revolve around how I developed serious pain in the ileocecal region of my abdomen following a day of taking three 325 mg aspirin pills--you can check out my thread, Does anyone have an appendicitis cure ? Not long after developing the stomach pain, I developed a fungal infection on my tongue that matches nearly exactly the picture below: View attachment 33183

While too much acidity in the large intestines would quickly result in diarrhea, your large intestines may still not be at that level, as you don't speak of diarrhea. But it may be acidic enough to provide an environment for fungus to thrive, and even to develop into a parasitic form. At that level of pathogenicity, it can develop into cancer. However, lactic acid from lactobacteria is IMHO the least of your concern.

The amount of fungus in your tongue is really bad. It may be from your gut, but it would also be likely that it is in your internal system also.

I have no problems with my gut for as long as I can remember. If I had, they are all minor cases of diarrhea. It was only once that I vomited, and that was from drinking contaminated water. But I still have white tongue, which I attribute to having fungus in my system which lurks by and doesn't show outward effects. It's clear you have gut issues, but its outward visible manifestation in your tongue may also indicate a systemic fungal overgrowth that is associated with poor acid base balance.

Back to your gut. Normally the acidic chyme from the stomach gets to become less acidic/more alkaline before it gets to the small intestine, as a result of pancreatic secretions of bicarbonate. If there isn't enough bicarbonate secretions, that would effect the acidity in the gut. Maybe this is why taking baking soda helps you.

 

[yerrag]

As to the effect of keto on your condition, my speculation is that if that causes you to rely less on sugar metabolism for energy, you produce less CO2. If your CO2 stores are low, so would your supply of carbonic acid and bicarbonates. This would affect both the production of gastric juice consisting HCl, as well as the secretion of bicarbonates to lower the acidity of chyme as it goes from the stomach to the small intestines.

I don't know the net effect is on the gut, but certainly it is not good.

 

[Birdie]

@Chad_Catholic if you see progress let us know. Pretty interesting situation you have.

 

[yerrag]

@Chad_Catholic

I listened to @Tarmander interviewing Ken Lassesen on episode 49 of his Quax podcast. It may be helpful to you. You're right about the lactic acid being high from microbes that you believe to be your context as Ken briefly mentioned that. He has a site that helps people solve issues with their gut microbiome. It's better for you to listen in than for me to describe more. @colby