Back Injuries, Disc Pain, Pins And Needles In Back, Etc

[hei]

Is there anything you can do that actually improves any of that? Any success stories?

 

[R J]

It all improves and sometimes even spontaneously heals with youthful metabolism. Even bad chronic injuries will become way more manageable.

 

[hei]

Youth is only getting longer ago for me

 

[Spartan300]

I also think there is scope for some improvement with better health/metabolism.

I have experienced low back trouble initially from gym injuries for ~20 years which has resulted in degraded discs and I have relied on a good osteopath as necessary. However, my osteopath recently retired & I asked similar questions to OP here not that long ago. One reply recommended a book written >30years ago: Treat Your Own Back by Robin McKenzie.
The exercises are straightforward but different to all physio/osteo recommendations I'd previously been given. I bought a copy & my back is currently as good as it has been in many years. I have not yet had to find another osteopath..

 

[Tom K]

RJ said, "It all improves and sometimes even spontaneously heals with youthful metabolism. Even bad chronic injuries will become way more manageable." Spartan also presented worthy comments. Both are accurate and have value. At times, both do not matter. Having treated more than 5,000 back patients, there are guidelines and principles that apply, and sometimes do not matter. I studied with McKenzie, and there are times that his approach will work, especially in younger patients that do not have spinal stenosis and spondylolisthesis. Here are some general thoughts: If sitting increases your pain, bend backwards from the waist repeatedly until the symptoms resolve. Sometimes this will reduce pain and radiculopathy (radiating pain into the sacral area or down the leg). If standing increases your pain, bend forward from the waist repeatedly until the symptoms resolve. To advise more than thee two principles, heavily based on Cyriax, from who McKenzie took most of what he presents (I studied with both Cyriax and McKenzie, so no ax to grind here), a minimum of a history is required, and an exam preferred. Be well. Tom

 

[jdherk]

Is there anything you can do that actually improves any of that? Any success stories?

Yes, you can perform the reverse hyper excercise on a high table, using only your bodyweight, this did wonders for my back.

Youtube "reverse hyper".

 

[Tom K]

I would not perform hyperextension if you have spondylolisthesis, and in some cases, stenosis. Hyperextension causes the vertebrae to move forward (anteriorly). In spondy, the forward displacement of the vertebral body is what causes the problem. There is no cookbook, and comments of that nature are due to inexperience. If you are less than 30, hyperextension for a disc problem is fine (unless it exacerbates the condition). If the disc herniation is from trauma, do not listen to anyone on this blog, including me. Trauma induced lumbar involvement requires an exam.

 

[YourUniverse]

I set out 2 months ago to end back pain that I've learned to live with, and I now have less than 5% of the pain I began with. I started with a chiropractor, which did basically nothing. Then I saw a PT, who gave me a few little exercises and a lacrosse ball for active release - basically useless except for immediate pain relief.

What worked was strength training on the painful areas, counter intuitively enough. That, and learning about mineral ratios and their effects on the spine. Check this out: Mineral Ratios for Calcium, Magnesium and other Elements

As I get stronger using whole-body, full range-of-motion exercises on the pain areas (like squats, deadlifts, overhead presses & chinups), the pain recedes further. Strong abdominals are a big help, too. The goal of everything physical is to ultimately stand and sit in better alignment, putting less pressure on muscles that shouldnt be responsible for posture, and strengthening those that are.

 

[mayweatherking]

back pain or injuries are just a temporary lack of oxygen in the muscles, and the stress you feel in day to day life makes them 'worse' and you think about them and identify them and it is a circle of pain. the stress when you identify with the pain is what gets you. what people are saying here is right, the metabolism makes it better, it is just a stress problem and a blood flow problem and lack of oxygen in blood problem is all. very basic and not a big deal. search john sarno healing back pain, i think the book is free on google, and search stories of people with him, many people got better by just understanding this. 20/20 did an episode on it as well where the reporter healed his pain.

 

[Spartan300]

What @Tom K states is critical. You have to know what you're dealing with to ensure more damage is not done. MRI scans confirmed the level of disc degradation for me. Interestingly my consultant was happy to refer me back to my osteopath but said he would never refer anyone to a chiropractor as he believed their methods were dangerous.

If the exercises don't aggravate the condition then I agree with @jamies33 - strength training can improve things if done with caution. Unfortunately as years go by this becomes more difficult. I have not been able to perform squats with weight for some time now.

 

[UphillEndeavors]

I blew my back out lifting rolls of rubber flooring at my gym in my early thirties...could barely walk for a week. I have had three bad relapses since then (I'm 41 now). I definitely recommend the books by Sarno, McKenzie, and McGill. Look into the psoas, as well. Emotional state is huge when it comes to back pain. Understand it as being multifaceted...physical, emotional, and psychological. Lying on my stomach frequently has helped me tons. I've swapped out movements in the gym that bother it...gotta be creative. Walk a lot and get the abs strong. Hang from a pullup bar. Ab movements that don't require spinal flexion seem to work well, ie planks, one handed farmers walks, bird dogs, McGills Big 3, Pallof press. It has been a process, but I am as strong as I've been in a while and pain free for almost three years. Be mindful of movements...don't lean forward too far over the sink when brushing, good posture when vacuuming, don't sit too long...things you may not normally think of.

Edit: Do not neglect the glutes, either. Look into Bret Contreras and his work with glute strengthening. Red light and collagen are your friends, as well.

 

[hei]

RJ said, "It all improves and sometimes even spontaneously heals with youthful metabolism. Even bad chronic injuries will become way more manageable." Spartan also presented worthy comments. Both are accurate and have value. At times, both do not matter. Having treated more than 5,000 back patients, there are guidelines and principles that apply, and sometimes do not matter. I studied with McKenzie, and there are times that his approach will work, especially in younger patients that do not have spinal stenosis and spondylolisthesis. Here are some general thoughts: If sitting increases your pain, bend backwards from the waist repeatedly until the symptoms resolve. Sometimes this will reduce pain and radiculopathy (radiating pain into the sacral area or down the leg). If standing increases your pain, bend forward from the waist repeatedly until the symptoms resolve. To advise more than thee two principles, heavily based on Cyriax, from who McKenzie took most of what he presents (I studied with both Cyriax and McKenzie, so no ax to grind here), a minimum of a history is required, and an exam preferred. Be well. Tom

I'm sure it can't be resolved over the internet but if possible it would be nice to have an idea if resolving these problems is realistic or yet another wild goose chase.

I think there are several issues that may or may not be related: intermittent lower back pain (triggered by activity but I think there's some underlying injury, albeit not as serious as the others), feeling pins and needles in various parts of my back, and upper back pain from a suspected disc injury around my lower thoracic spine (right at this moment not really feeling it but it last flared up a few weeks ago for a few weeks). I also have a 70% collapsed vertebra in my thoracic spine. Really my back is totally rooted and probably at the end of its useful life.
Bending forward increases the pain (all of them when they are present) while bending backwards has no particular effect.
Walking, flexion, extension, stretching, lying on my front (very uncomfortable due to the vertebra problem) all increase the pins and needles.
McGill exercises did nothing for me but then I only had the upper back pain.

If you are less than 30

oh well

 

[Tom K]

"I also have a 70% collapsed vertebra in my thoracic spine. Really my back is totally rooted and probably at the end of its useful life." If this is accurate, the collapsed vertebral body will cause segmental instability that will affect the entire spine. You have lost vertical dimension, which by default will cause anterior/posterior instability like that experienced from spondylolisthesis. If you cannot live with this condition, surgical vertebral stabilization may be indicated. Good luck.

 

[YourUniverse]

@hei Mark Rippetoe at the Starting Strength forum has very interesting ideas on back pain. He usually advises against surgery. It may be worth heading over there and asking him.

 

[gaze]

emphasizing calcium and vitamin D would be the best things to do dietarily wise, because there's usually some inflammation involved. If its random pains not caused by a specific injury, it could also be a swollen intestine and bowel.

 

[Tom K]

I agree that surgery is rarely a good choice., and the data reveal how ineffective it is for most issues. However, with the degree of parestesia, spine instability, pins and needles up and down the spine, etc that you describe, it appears/presents as pressure on the dura. Is inflammation involved? Sure. But that approach is symptomatic and a 70% collapse in vertical thoracic vertebral height is structural and requires more than aspirin. Most acute non-structural back issues resolve regardless of the treatment in 8 weeks, and many ascribe their kool ideas during that time period as a success. I do not know Riptoe, and mean him no harm. This is not the time for bro-science and ideas that are anecdotal. What is protecting you now is that the thoracic vertebrae, unlike the lumbar vertebrae, have the broad thick posterior longitudinal ligament that forms a broad support (it narrows in the lumbar spine). If you keep compromising that ligament, it will deform over time, allowing greater anterior excursion, provoking greater instability. Get off this forum for this issue. Though everyone means well, you need a referral to a spine surgeon. You are not solving this issue with supplements, coffee, or fruit juice.

 

[YourUniverse]

4 and a half minute video (1:45 in particular)

 

[Tristan Loscha]

I'm sure it can't be resolved over the internet but if possible it would be nice to have an idea if resolving these problems is realistic or yet another wild goose chase.

I think there are several issues that may or may not be related: intermittent lower back pain (triggered by activity but I think there's some underlying injury, albeit not as serious as the others), feeling pins and needles in various parts of my back, and upper back pain from a suspected disc injury around my lower thoracic spine (right at this moment not really feeling it but it last flared up a few weeks ago for a few weeks). I also have a 70% collapsed vertebra in my thoracic spine. Really my back is totally rooted and probably at the end of its useful life.
Bending forward increases the pain (all of them when they are present) while bending backwards has no particular effect.
Walking, flexion, extension, stretching, lying on my front (very uncomfortable due to the vertebra problem) all increase the pins and needles.
McGill exercises did nothing for me but then I only had the upper back pain.

oh well

You can probably lessen nerve excitation stemming from nerve damage by supplementing B vitamins in higher dosages, also Uridine and phospholipids, eating eggs.

 

[hei]

"I also have a 70% collapsed vertebra in my thoracic spine. Really my back is totally rooted and probably at the end of its useful life." If this is accurate, the collapsed vertebral body will cause segmental instability that will affect the entire spine. You have lost vertical dimension, which by default will cause anterior/posterior instability like that experienced from spondylolisthesis. If you cannot live with this condition, surgical vertebral stabilization may be indicated. Good luck.

Thanks for your reply. Unfortunately it is accurate, that is an 11 year old injury and the other stuff has occurred in the last 1-2 years. Prior to that I only ever had muscle aches due to the strain of compensating for the defective posture, annoying but probably not serious.
I actually have never heard anything like that from the doctors or physios I have seen. I don't know if they were just trying to be positive for the sake of it or if they really meant it, but they all encouraged more activity and denied that my spine could ever be a hindrance to anything when I asked specifically about that. When I went to my GP last year with the pins and needles problem she just had a bit of a poke around and said there was probably nothing really wrong because it had already gone away once before, and referred me to a physio who said it was probably "an irritated nerve" and said there was no reason not to do whatever exercise I felt like. Haven't been to any more practitioners for a year.
I don't really feel that interested in surgery unless there is something that could restore my spine to an anatomically correct shape (not sure if this exists but I don't think so). There seems to be little evidence in general for surgery decreasing pain and it seems to me that just fastening segments would just place worse pressures on the remaining structure. It seems like a lot of trouble to go through without fixing the underlying cause.

@hei Mark Rippetoe at the Starting Strength forum has very interesting ideas on back pain. He usually advises against surgery. It may be worth heading over there and asking him.

Weight lifting caused my current problems, the pins and needles began immediately after a set of deadlifts, so I'm really not sure about that.

 

[YourUniverse]

Weight lifting caused my current problems, the pins and needles began immediately after a set of deadlifts, so I'm really not sure about that.

I only wanted to show you an alternate opinion, I have no expertise in the area. I hope you get well.