How Do You Get Any Result From Anything?

[hei]

Low T with low estrogen and prolactin? Don

Yes, might as well reproduce the results here:

FSH . . . . . . 2 U/L (<9)
LH ............ 4 U/L (<8)
Oestradiol ... 60 pmol/L (<100)
Progesterone .. 2 nmol/L
Prolactin ... 120 mU/L (<330)
Testosterone 13.4 nmol/L (10.0-35.0)
SHBG ......... 31 nmol/L (10 - 50)
Free test. .. 259 pmol/L (225 - 725)
Free Androgen Index 43.2 (20.0 - 160.0)
DHEAS ....... 8.3 umol/L (4.3 - 12.2)

"Nothing makes a difference. Trying for longer just means trying for longer without a result."

Can relate to this man...

Researching for literally hundreds of hours, trying all sorts of things, having some glimmer of hope that things will get better but ultimately nothing changes + not having a ******* clue how to fix things and no one can help you or understand you (certainly not doctors). This ***t gets to you and at the moment I feel very hopeless

If I see no improvement with my next experiment I'm just giving up on this stuff

Sorry that you're having a similar problem. I think I'm at the same point with respect to trying more things. I ordered some cynomel, if that doesn't help (assuming it ever gets here) then there's nothing left to try so the wild goose chase might as well stop. Don't see any point to bothering with doctors anymore unless it's something urgent.

Have you checked your body temperature and pulse rate?

Pulse is about 60 usually, sometimes it gets to the low 70s after a meal. I know Peat wrote that this is too low but it hasn't changed a beat with any dietary measures. I don't have a thermometer but he said he never saw a healthy person with a low pulse anyway. I still get cold hands and feet sometimes even though I'm in a hot part of the tropics.

 

[baccheion]

CRON-o-meter screenshot? Any nutrient deficiencies?

 

[Jessie]

I keep gaining weight despite having probably 25% bodyfat, so IMO there probably isn't a shortage. When I tried cutting back on calories a few months ago to lose weight it seemed to shed a lot of muscle around my legs and back/shoulders while leaving the fat largely untouched. I would say I generally drink lots of milk relative to meat and grains.


All low except for thyroid which seems to convert overly to rT3. I wasn't eating low carb anyway but more carbs and selenium didn't seem to help with that. I think T is probably even lower than when I had it tested a few months ago.

When you attempted to cut calories where you cutting protein? Even before finding Peat's work, I always found it really simple to lose body fat by restricting carbs and fats, and keeping protein the same. I was more geared toward a fat burner back then, so I really focused on cutting the majority from carbohydrates. But putting a Peat perspective on it, it's probably best to focus on cutting mostly from fat, and still eat enough carbs so you can assimilate your protein. Carbohydrate is more thermogenic than fat anyways, so this should work out nicely for specifically targeting fat loss, while preserving as much muscle as possible while being in a deficit.

If nothing has worked for you then I would target the gut as being the possible problem. Because I personally found the anti-stress effects of sugar to be minimal and temporary until I correct my bacteria overgrowth. When I corrected this sugar had a much more profound anti-stress action for me. Best thing for me has been intermittent fasting, essentially starving the bacteria off. But this can be a more hardcore method, as it will temporarily suspend glucose metabolism for fatty acid oxidation. A more gentle route would be eliminating stuff like legumes and grains, and increasing the amount of germicidal fibers like raw carrots and cooked mushrooms. Cascara can also speed up transit, thus reducing food for the bacteria. Emodin (naturally found in cascara) also has the same effect. TLR4 suppressors like vitamin B2 can help too.

"The gut makes 95% of serotonin, which is the main promoter of stress hormones, inflammation, pain, and anxiety." - Ray Peat

 

[GutFeeling]

Yes, might as well reproduce the results here:



Sorry that you're having a similar problem. I think I'm at the same point with respect to trying more things. I ordered some cynomel, if that doesn't help (assuming it ever gets here) then there's nothing left to try so the wild goose chase might as well stop. Don't see any point to bothering with doctors anymore unless it's something urgent.


Pulse is about 60 usually, sometimes it gets to the low 70s after a meal. I know Peat wrote that this is too low but it hasn't changed a beat with any dietary measures. I don't have a thermometer but he said he never saw a healthy person with a low pulse anyway. I still get cold hands and feet sometimes even though I'm in a hot part of the tropics.

If this site is correct then you estradiol is quite high. Reducing it to half the actual value would easily increase your T by more than 100%...

Estradiol (E2) conversion to pmol/L, pg/mL, pg/dL, pg/100mL, pg%, pg/L, ng/L . Online converter from conventional units to SI units | UNITSLAB.COM

 

[BingDing]

OP, it just takes time and there is no magic bullet. You've likely been eating PUFAs your whole life and your tissues are saturated with them, they suppress/interfere with everything that produces vibrant good health. Eating coconut oil every day for 4-6 years will gradually displace them and everything will improve.

Thyroid alone may not be enough because there are so many variables. But thyroid is essential for cellular energy and cellular energy is fundamental to everything else. Books and lab work can be informative but they aren't necessary. Use 1/4 grain (15mg) of NDT every day for two weeks and increase nutrients as needed. Then use 1/2 grain for two weeks, etc. It can take time for any change to be felt because it takes time for these complex systems to stabilize to a new normal.

There is no reason to fear hormones, they are just signaling molecules that act globally and they are already produced in the body. Don't worry about the food vs supplements debate, or the ratio of macro nutrients debate, or any other secondary considerations.

The best thing about RP's advice is that it is not a rabbit hole. You may not like the fact that it takes time, but stick with it and when you start to come out the other side know that you'll likely be healthy for the rest of your life, even in old age.

There is no realistic alternative, as far as I can see....

 

[koky]

12-16:00 is the prime time for UV-B, the UV light which produces Vit. D, when the sun is directly above. Outside of that the UV light is mostly or completely UV-A, which penetrates the deepest into the skin and the most damaging as far as I know.
UV-B is the stuff you want (whether it be skin or eyes), is the general consensus.

thanx

 

[baccheion]

If this site is correct then you estradiol is quite high. Reducing it to half the actual value would easily increase your T by more than 100%...

Estradiol (E2) conversion to pmol/L, pg/mL, pg/dL, pg/100mL, pg%, pg/L, ng/L . Online converter from conventional units to SI units | UNITSLAB.COM

What? That converter says 60 pmol/L is equivalent to 16 pg/mL. If anything, that's low/satisfactory. Maybe it needs to be increased?

Low estrogen, testosterone, prolactin, etc combined with lower LH suggests something is causing the body to want levels lower. If there was an issue with the gonads, LH would be higher.

 

[GutFeeling]

What? That converter says 60 pmol/L is equivalent to 16 pg/mL. If anything, that's low/satisfactory. Maybe it needs to be increased?

Low estrogen, testosterone, prolactin, etc combined with lower LH suggests something is causing the body to want levels lower. If there was an issue with the gonads, LH would be higher.

Oh yeah. Sorry my mistake

 

[hei]

Almost another month has gone by. This month I have been eating mostly fruit (canned apricots, canned peaches, raw bananas, meant to have juice but just don't feel like it) and milk (1.3% and 2%), and some beef on some days. Average intake seems to be around 2400kcal within a range of around 2000-3000. I have also been recording my weight regularly for a while:

My muscles seem to be vaporising even as my weight stays about the same. Not that I had much muscle before but even that has gone, when I feel my back/shoulder/arm/leg muscles with my hand the muscles are very thin and the muscle loss is noticeable. New pains are appearing that I think are caused by muscle loss/weakness, but I don't feel capable of performing any exercise because I'm still in pain from months-old injuries.

What? That converter says 60 pmol/L is equivalent to 16 pg/mL. If anything, that's low/satisfactory. Maybe it needs to be increased?

Low estrogen, testosterone, prolactin, etc combined with lower LH suggests something is causing the body to want levels lower. If there was an issue with the gonads, LH would be higher.

Evidently it has given up and is too busy storing fat to waste energy producing useless hormones.

Don't really know what can be done at this point. I ordered pregnenolone and it was seized by customs. I ordered cynomel eight weeks ago and it hasn't arrived; the tracking says it's at customs so not really holding my breath. The seller also cheated me by charging for international express shipping and sending it as first class mail. Ordered T3 from a domestic black market supplier and naturally there's no sign of it. Last time I went to a doctor there was only the prospect of cholesterol medication. Everything is a dead end.

 

[Goz]

Wake at dawn
Sun gaze for hour
Creatine with baking soda
Lift weights for hour
Milk fruit gelatine
Meditate read learn
Beef eggs oysters daily
Workout every other evening after sunset
Walk and spend as much time in sun as possible
Strong body
Strong mind
And only then will you have a chance of acquiring a strong spirit

 

[Ableton]

I have never been in your situation (am kind of a polar opposite) but reading this reminded me of gbolduev saying extreme slow oxidizers need to stress their bodies and underactive nervous systems through forced workouts and coffee.
The former would be really anti peat but if nothing works you might as well give it a shot I guess?!
If I was you, going of your description, I would try to ramp up my stress hormones a bit (mild workouts despite not feeling like them, without killing yourself; and coffee) on higher cals (aim for 3k first, then 3,5 k). This should mildly raise androgens as well and get you out of learned helplessness.
Basically, you need to produce hormones and being depressed sitting on your **** is not going to do that.
Fight every living second against your state. Don’t be lazy. If you cant workout, go for a walk and so on.
Eat for enjoyment again, to a reasonable degree

 

[gately]

Almost another month has gone by. This month I have been eating mostly fruit (canned apricots, canned peaches, raw bananas, meant to have juice but just don't feel like it) and milk (1.3% and 2%), and some beef on some days. Average intake seems to be around 2400kcal within a range of around 2000-3000. I have also been recording my weight regularly for a while:
View attachment 19130
My muscles seem to be vaporising even as my weight stays about the same. Not that I had much muscle before but even that has gone, when I feel my back/shoulder/arm/leg muscles with my hand the muscles are very thin and the muscle loss is noticeable. New pains are appearing that I think are caused by muscle loss/weakness, but I don't feel capable of performing any exercise because I'm still in pain from months-old injuries.

Evidently it has given up and is too busy storing fat to waste energy producing useless hormones.

Don't really know what can be done at this point. I ordered pregnenolone and it was seized by customs. I ordered cynomel eight weeks ago and it hasn't arrived; the tracking says it's at customs so not really holding my breath. The seller also cheated me by charging for international express shipping and sending it as first class mail. Ordered T3 from a domestic black market supplier and naturally there's no sign of it. Last time I went to a doctor there was only the prospect of cholesterol medication. Everything is a dead end.

You're overweight, can't gain muscle, and a non-responder to most things. Have I got that right? As other have said, you might be hypothyroid. Have you been thoroughly tested with a full thyroid panel? Because you might not need to keep trying to score thyroid on the black market if you receive a western diagnosis...

Also, have you tried eating a low-carbohydrate diet, as in around (or under) 72 grams of net carbs per day? Based on what you've told us, you sound like a prime candidate for a standard low carbohydrate diet of mostly veggies, meat, and fats. There's a lot of hate for that style of eating around these parts, but it's pretty hard to deny that some people do extremely well for extremely long periods of time (if not indefinitely) on such diets. Sure some people react poorly to low carb-diets, but those people are basically why the Ray Peat Forum exists.

Also, how is your ability to sweat? Any possibility you're iodine deficient?

 

[hei]

I have never been in your situation (am kind of a polar opposite) but reading this reminded me of gbolduev saying extreme slow oxidizers need to stress their bodies and underactive nervous systems through forced workouts and coffee.
The former would be really anti peat but if nothing works you might as well give it a shot I guess?!
If I was you, going of your description, I would try to ramp up my stress hormones a bit (mild workouts despite not feeling like them, without killing yourself; and coffee) on higher cals (aim for 3k first, then 3,5 k). This should mildly raise androgens as well and get you out of learned helplessness.
Basically, you need to produce hormones and being depressed sitting on your **** is not going to do that.
Fight every living second against your state. Don’t be lazy. If you cant workout, go for a walk and so on.
Eat for enjoyment again, to a reasonable degree

Working out already destroyed my body. I had disc pain from December through April from lifting weights last year. Around May it finally seemed to have gone away so I started with some bodyweight exercises which went OK initially. After a couple of weeks I tried to do pullups and pulled a muscle (trap maybe) above my shoulder blade which hurt for the last three months. My shoulder still hurt at the front from an injury months before that (also from working out), so I gave up on upper body exercises and kept going with lower body exercises. In June I tried doing some standing rows with 4kg dumbbells and that brought the disc pain back harder than ever; it only began to subside about a week ago. Lower body exercises also made my right knee feel weird; I have a preexisting injury there as well (also from working out).
Have been for a walk at lunchtime 4-5 days a week since Easter, about 2.5-3km which is really all I can tolerate at a time due to the condition of my back. I don't think it has a helpful effect. When I walk I get back pain from at least two separate causes, hip pain, knee pain, and, as of this week, shoulder pain when I try to keep an upright posture.

Have I got that right?

Pretty much.

you might be hypothyroid. Have you been thoroughly tested with a full thyroid panel? Because you might not need to keep trying to score thyroid on the black market if you receive a western diagnosis...

GP tested it a couple of years ago and just said it was OK. I got a private test back in March and the results seemed ambiguous, maybe RT3 is too high and TSH elevated by Peat standards, but then what am I to do with that, go doctor-shopping and try to find one who prescribes thyroid because I read a book about it/read about it online/etc.

Also, how is your ability to sweat? Any possibility you're iodine deficient?

It's hot here and I sweat every time I go outside or turn the AC off. No problem that I can see. There is iodine in milk, iodine in the multivitamin, and I was using Lugol's for quite a while (I was applying it to a toe with an infected ingrown toenail that wasn't healing well).
I have not tried such a diet as you described.

 

[gately]

Working out already destroyed my body. I had disc pain from December through April from lifting weights last year. Around May it finally seemed to have gone away so I started with some bodyweight exercises which went OK initially. After a couple of weeks I tried to do pullups and pulled a muscle (trap maybe) above my shoulder blade which hurt for the last three months. My shoulder still hurt at the front from an injury months before that (also from working out), so I gave up on upper body exercises and kept going with lower body exercises. In June I tried doing some standing rows with 4kg dumbbells and that brought the disc pain back harder than ever; it only began to subside about a week ago. Lower body exercises also made my right knee feel weird; I have a preexisting injury there as well (also from working out).
Have been for a walk at lunchtime 4-5 days a week since Easter, about 2.5-3km which is really all I can tolerate at a time due to the condition of my back. I don't think it has a helpful effect. When I walk I get back pain from at least two separate causes, hip pain, knee pain, and, as of this week, shoulder pain when I try to keep an upright posture.

Pretty much.

GP tested it a couple of years ago and just said it was OK. I got a private test back in March and the results seemed ambiguous, maybe RT3 is too high and TSH elevated by Peat standards, but then what am I to do with that, go doctor-shopping and try to find one who prescribes thyroid because I read a book about it/read about it online/etc.

It's hot here and I sweat every time I go outside or turn the AC off. No problem that I can see. There is iodine in milk, iodine in the multivitamin, and I was using Lugol's for quite a while (I was applying it to a toe with an infected ingrown toenail that wasn't healing well).
I have not tried such a diet as you described.

And low carb?

 

[hei]

No I have not tried that.

 

[hei]

I finally received a letter informing me that the federal government has protected the country from my attempted importation of very dangerous and risky unapproved pregnenolone capsules. All I have to do to receive them is produce a prescription.

Unfortunately there are no (zero (0)) approved pregnenolone products in the country (ref: Search the TGA website) so it can't be prescribed. The doctor would have to apply to the government for permission to prescribe it under some other schemes intended for terminally ill people. So you actually just can't get it (almost like that's the intention).

Because you might not need to keep trying to score thyroid on the black market if you receive a western diagnosis...

I looked into this again and, as you might expect, T3 is an "authority required" drug for which a prescription can only be written with prior permission from the government based on restrictive criteria. So, again, pointless to even try.
Reference: https://www.pbs.gov.au/medicine/item/2318B.

Also, have you tried eating a low-carbohydrate diet, as in around (or under) 72 grams of net carbs per day?

I meant to ask what is the significance of 72 grams of carbs? It's not a number I have seen anywhere else.

The cynomel actually turned up but I don't really feel any different after two weeks even though my pulse is up to a peat-approved rate. Maybe with time it will improve.

I don't feel very hopeful of being able to get more now that I'm undoubtedly on "the list". The tracking history for the pregnenolone indicates that it was seized at a domestic airport a week after passing through customs at the port of entry, so probably not even domestic sources are safe.

JFL at "overcoming learned helplessness" when it's reinforced to this extent.

 

[gately]

I meant to ask what is the significance of 72 grams of carbs? It's not a number I have seen anywhere else.

Wolfgang Lutz put thousands of patients on a 72 net carb (maximum) diet, and, to my knowledge, claimed he arrived at the number based on the research that was available at the time. I haven't read his books in forever, and can't remember the details. What I do remember was he claimed he didn't see any clinical benefit too going much lower than 72 grams. (This was well before all the hoopla of ketogenic dieting for anyone besides, ya know, epileptics or whatever.)

I'm just curious, because you seem willing to do just about anything else: why haven't you tried a low-carbohydrate diet?

EDIT: the reason I suggest aprox 72 grams to people where trialing a low carbohydrate diet might be warranted (I don't think it's warranted for everyone, obviously, or else I wouldn't be on this forum) is to be specific in that I do not mean a ketogenic diet, but simply a diet low enough in carbohydrates to achieve all the clinical benefits of moderate carbohydrate restriction.

 

[hei]

I'm just curious, because you seem willing to do just about anything else: why haven't you tried a low-carbohydrate diet?

I suppose it just never really appealed. I would have to avoid delicious foods like milk and yoghurt, and whereas restricting carbs would seem to necessitate eating more fat, I often find that very fatty meals give me a degree of indigestion.

 

[GreekDemiGod]

This month I have been eating mostly fruit (canned apricots, canned peaches, raw bananas, meant to have juice but just don't feel like it) and milk (1.3% and 2%), and some beef on some days

Why are you eating canned fruits? Fresh is much better.
Also, for a disc injury, the worse thing you can do is be sedentary and stop exercising.

Wake at dawn
Sun gaze for hour
Creatine with baking soda
Lift weights for hour
Milk fruit gelatine
Meditate read learn
Beef eggs oysters daily
Workout every other evening after sunset
Walk and spend as much time in sun as possible
Strong body
Strong mind
And only then will you have a chance of acquiring a strong spirit

Based.

 

[schultz]

I ordered cynomel eight weeks ago and it hasn't arrived; the tracking says it's at customs so not really holding my breath.

Mine took 3 months last time (from Mexico to Canada).It's usually labelled as something like gems or something so it might pass customs.

I finally received a letter informing me that the federal government has protected the country from my attempted importation of very dangerous and risky unapproved pregnenolone capsules. All I have to do to receive them is produce a prescription.

Wow that is BS. It's just pregnenolone. Time to overthrow the Australian government.