Complex Spinal Damage

Sundog

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Hi all. Long-time lurker and admirer of Dr
Peat, first time poster.
Would appreciate any ideas on potential healing modalities for what is essentially an issue of scarring and adhesions of
several of the cauda equina nerves within the spinal column. Long story but occurred after a laminectomy which initially seemed successful then degenerated into unbelievably painful nerve pain in one leg.

A second surgery 3 years later by a neurosurgeon, trying to address a facet joint cyst and protruding disc material, confirmed the cauda equina situation (primarily because they accidentally cut thru the dura and could see the nerve clumping and scarring within the cauda equina)
That is something that can't be approached surgically without risk of greater dysfunction including possible paralysis.

Only agreed to the first surgery because they (Pain Management Specialist) refused to prescribe pain medication and insisted on interventional facet joint and other spinal injections which did not help. I know this forum is generally very anti-opioid but trust me when I tell you they are sometimes necessary for some people to have any quality of life vs. being sedentary or even bedridden. Thanks to the Affordable Care Act many medical practices are being bought out by private equity groups because the electronic data reporting requirements make it unworkable/affordable for doctors to maintain a private practice. That is why your doctor now spends 5 minutes with you and entering info into a computer that the NIH or whoever uses to generate care algorithms that doctors must adhere to for insurance requirements. No room for nuance anymore in medicine. And the private equity groups make money on interventional techniques, not dispensing medication so many pain management practices (legit ones, not pill mills) have been closed, stranding many patients.
Second surgery was actually in the hope of correcting things to the point of not needing strong pain meds, but instead, like many patients, have now been consigned to the medical trash heap designation of "failed back surgery" and now rely on pain meds I need but would rather not take.
I would love @haidut or anyone to look into what could be a way to mitigate the situation.
There is a retired Pain Management doctor named Forest Tennant who has a website called ArachnoiditisHope.com which has many suggestions but basically calls for a three-pronged approach of pain control, inflammation reduction, and repletion of neurosteroids which he claims are depleted by the pain itself and the actual obstruction to the flow of cerebrospinal fluid between the brain and spine, because of scarring and clumping. Suggestions include whatever medical help one can get, as well as otc things such as adrenal extract, andrographis, serrapeptide, colostrum, turmeric, palmitoylethanalomide, and especially dhea and/or pregnenolone. The doses recommended for those are over the top (like 200 mg dhea twice daily!), but keep changing as I believe he relies on a lot of anecdotal info as well as whatever scientific info is available (sparse). To my knowledge he has no financial interests in the supplements he recommends and runs the website as a research foundation.

@haidut - if you were to experiment with rats having this issue, are there any Idealabs experimental substances you would most likely try on the rats? You might find this an interesting area, if you have the time.

Okay, sorry for the long dissertation. Any feedback is welcome.
Also, of course condolences to all who knew or communicated with the great Dr. Peat, whose scientific and philosophical contributions will continue to flourish and stand the test of time.
 

L_C

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Aug 17, 2018
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I don't really have any answers for you. The only thing I would be cautious about is taking large doses of dhea especially if you are hypothyroid. Even in miniature amonts (10mg) this can convert to estrogen.

When it comes to pain medication, I would suggest smoking weed or some strong cbd. The friend of mine had rectal surgery long ago and no pain medication could alleviate his pain except smoking weed.

Haidut did come up with 10-Methoxy-Harmalan. I have never tried it. Perhaps, it could help.
 
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Sundog

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I don't really have any answers for you. The only thing I would be cautious about is taking large doses of dhea especially if you are hypothyroid. Even in miniature amonts (10mg) this can convert to estrogen.

When it comes to pain medication, I would suggest smoking weed or some strong cbd. The friend of mine had rectal surgery long ago and no pain medication could alleviate his pain except smoking weed.

Haidut did come up with 10-Methoxy-Harmalan. I have never tried it. Perhaps, it could help.
Thanks for your reply. I'm definitely leery of high dose dhea - never diagnosed as hypothyroid but that's only based on tsh tests. My body temp does run lower and I am experimenting with ndt for that reason (something I learned on this forum) but in early stages of that. Weed is actually legal in my state but really doesn't give the pain relief that opioid medication does, at least for me. I'll definitely check out the info on 10-Methoxy-Harmalan, staying cognizant of any possible interactions.
Again, thanks for taking the time to share this info - much appreciated.
 

Herbie

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I had sciatica nerve pain in flute, calf and numb toes from two herniated discs, Couldn't stand.

Used huge dosages of dhea and progesterone in dmso on the area where the discs are damaged and over a month of so of applying it, I realised I was no longer in pain and forgot about the two years of hell I went through.
 
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Sundog

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I had sciatica nerve pain in flute, calf and numb toes from two herniated discs, Couldn't stand.

Used huge dosages of dhea and progesterone in dmso on the area where the discs are damaged and over a month of so of applying it, I realised I was no longer in pain and forgot about the two years of hell I went through.
Very interesting (and hope-inspiring). Did you use liquid forms of the neurosteroids for mixing. I have progest- e but only capsule/powder forms of dhea. Thanks for this info.
 

AlaskaJono

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@Sundog
Sorry to hear.... crap situation you are now in. I had severe pain from the common L4/5 Disc herniation, and a little 3/4 too. The doctors whom I saw 3 times would only give me bull**** 'new pain meds' which just messed with my head, and did nothing for the pain. I just wanted codeine or some old fashioned drug but they were pushing me towards eventual surgery.... or spinal injections, and when that didn't work then surgery. I have over 30 years experience treating folks with acupuncture, including sciatic pain. So I know very well how it goes.... . For scar tissue acu is good if you can find someone who has experience with that kind of treatment, and putting the needles deep enough along the side of the spine to get to tickle the area just adjacent to the dorsal nerve root ganglion. DMSO is excellent, 2X day recommend, that's what I did, and I dilute it down to 80% strength with pure water. I used magnesium oil on top of that. like 400-500 mg spray bottle. @Herbie had luck with his dhea and progesterone, maybe give progesterone a try. ?? Yeah mine was HELL too... barely crawling to the toilet in agony for months, then finally adjusted to using walking sticks.

I finally got an old fashioned doc to give me a prescription for codeine, as that brought the pain level from 11/10 down to 7/10. And yes your adrenals probably exhausted, but not necessary to take adrenals now. I probably only took codeine for 4 1/2 months total. I shoulda had them or something that worked for the first 3 months. Anyhow, whatever pain med works use it. Do try CBD oil or smoke or bake with it. It is not legal where I live so I had to be happy with a small amount I was given for making butter with it then baking. Really worked, but it is HIGH producing, which mostly I don't want, but.... anything is better than that pain.
 

Jonk

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Maybe not helpful but thought of the story Ray Peat told about an older man who basically healed his swollen arthritic knee by applying a whole bottle of progesterone on it.
 
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Sundog

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@Sundog
Sorry to hear.... crap situation you are now in. I had severe pain from the common L4/5 Disc herniation, and a little 3/4 too. The doctors whom I saw 3 times would only give me bull**** 'new pain meds' which just messed with my head, and did nothing for the pain. I just wanted codeine or some old fashioned drug but they were pushing me towards eventual surgery.... or spinal injections, and when that didn't work then surgery. I have over 30 years experience treating folks with acupuncture, including sciatic pain. So I know very well how it goes.... . For scar tissue acu is good if you can find someone who has experience with that kind of treatment, and putting the needles deep enough along the side of the spine to get to tickle the area just adjacent to the dorsal nerve root ganglion. DMSO is excellent, 2X day recommend, that's what I did, and I dilute it down to 80% strength with pure water. I used magnesium oil on top of that. like 400-500 mg spray bottle. @Herbie had luck with his dhea and progesterone, maybe give progesterone a try. ?? Yeah mine was HELL too... barely crawling to the toilet in agony for months, then finally adjusted to using walking sticks.

I finally got an old fashioned doc to give me a prescription for codeine, as that brought the pain level from 11/10 down to 7/10. And yes your adrenals probably exhausted, but not necessary to take adrenals now. I probably only took codeine for 4 1/2 months total. I shoulda had them or something that worked for the first 3 months. Anyhow, whatever pain med works use it. Do try CBD oil or smoke or bake with it. It is not legal where I live so I had to be happy with a small amount I was given for making butter with it then baking. Really worked, but it is HIGH producing, which mostly I don't want, but.... anything is better than that pain.
Thanks so much for this detailed info - your experience sounds very much like mine, they put you through hell before they treat adequately when it would have helped more in the beginning to get a lesser dose of pain meds and probably averted the surgeries which I regret. I've done physical therapy (in fact the PT was the one who reluctantly advised that I might need to consider a second surgery) but haven't tried acupuncture which is definitely intriguing. I also don't like anything that is high producing - much prefer lucidity which is why I'd love to free myself of pain meds, but as you say, anything is better than that pain.
I've trialed non-thc containing cbd oil but got nothing from it. Also, thc, while legal here,is something they test for in the drug tests that pain management patients are forced to take, and I'm pretty sure that if it showed up consistently or in high amounts they would consider you a "drug-seeker" and bounce you from the practice. They don't make money from prescriptions vs interventional techniques so probably happy as not to drop you. Shitty situation but legitimate pain patients were the roadkill of the "opioid crisis".
Will definitely look into the acupuncture and dmso possibilities. Thanks again!
 
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Sundog

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Maybe not helpful but thought of the story Ray Peat told about an older man who basically healed his swollen arthritic knee by applying a whole bottle of progesterone on it.
Actually based on what Herbie and AlaskaJono have described, some kind of topical application is worth trying. Don't want to completely mess up hormones so I'll have to do a little research on dosages, but that's why I love this forum and Ray Peat who has casually dropped a lot of gems like that over time. Thanks.
 

AlaskaJono

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@Sundog
Yes I had the same experience with the Cbd oil with no thc. No nothing and it was expensive here in Australia. Anyhow, get DMSO 99.9% pure stuff from a Vet supply place and you can start trying that out. Definitely it is something I continue to do as I am outta the pain, but still stiff and re arranging my muscles and posture, and doing my core and other stuff. Also I do recommend some kind of traction daily. I set up a wooden bar just barely out of reach, and stretch one whole side at a time with just the ball of a foot, or 2, on the ground to support somewhat. I have used a small 2 x 4 also to adjust the height so the weight is not full on your hand. Can do both hands or pullups, but at first it needs some weight taken off by the feet. Also many times a day for months.... good luck mate, keep at it and you will succeed.
 
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Sundog

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@Sundog
Yes I had the same experience with the Cbd oil with no thc. No nothing and it was expensive here in Australia. Anyhow, get DMSO 99.9% pure stuff from a Vet supply place and you can start trying that out. Definitely it is something I continue to do as I am outta the pain, but still stiff and re arranging my muscles and posture, and doing my core and other stuff. Also I do recommend some kind of traction daily. I set up a wooden bar just barely out of reach, and stretch one whole side at a time with just the ball of a foot, or 2, on the ground to support somewhat. I have used a small 2 x 4 also to adjust the height so the weight is not full on your hand. Can do both hands or pullups, but at first it needs some weight taken off by the feet. Also many times a day for months.... good luck mate, keep at it and you will succeed.
Great info - really appreciate you and will do as you suggest.

I picked up on the "nerve flossing" exercise that someone had posted in a thread and some kind of home traction makes sense, as it seems the magic bullet would be to somehow get the cauda equina nerves to break free and just hang suspended in spinal fluid as they are supposed to (like a horse's tail which is what cauda equina means in Latin).
I do use heat and cold therapy as well as topical lidocaine and Voltaren, and just got a red light device but have yet to use it.

You guys are great.
 

Herbie

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Very interesting (and hope-inspiring). Did you use liquid forms of the neurosteroids for mixing. I have progest- e but only capsule/powder forms of dhea. Thanks fo this info.
I used progest e and dhea powder. You can mix dhea powder with progest e then apply it and or add dmso after applying it on skin.

I know dmso has side effects but I wanted the compounds to penetrate.
 

Momma

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Maybe not helpful but thought of the story Ray Peat told about an older man who basically healed his swollen arthritic knee by applying a whole bottle of progesterone on it.
Immediately thought of this as well.
 

mostlylurking

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I picked up on the "nerve flossing" exercise that someone had posted in a thread and some kind of home traction makes sense, as it seems the magic bullet would be to somehow get the cauda equina nerves to break free and just hang suspended in spinal fluid as they are supposed to (like a horse's tail which is what cauda equina means in Latin).
I think that reducing inflammation is key. Inflammation causes swelling and fibrosis which can narrow pathways and pinch nerves.

For me the keys have been optimizing my thyroid medication (via a good endo; I take Acella brand NP thyroid which works), plus taking high dose thiamine hcl. I recovered from rheumatoid arthritis via the thyroid medication optimized over a 6 month period. I have also managed to get my inflammation resolved that was caused by thiamine deficiency (caused primarily by lead poisoning) with the thiamine hcl.

Please note that both thiamine and thyroid are needed for good oxidative metabolism; if this is blocked by deficiencies, lactic acid results which is highly inflammatory.

My husband's spinal stenosis pain seems to be a lot better since he got his thyroid medication optimized.

Here's some links for your consideration:
 

frannybananny

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Great info - really appreciate you and will do as you suggest.

I picked up on the "nerve flossing" exercise that someone had posted in a thread and some kind of home traction makes sense, as it seems the magic bullet would be to somehow get the cauda equina nerves to break free and just hang suspended in spinal fluid as they are supposed to (like a horse's tail which is what cauda equina means in Latin).
I do use heat and cold therapy as well as topical lidocaine and Voltaren, and just got a red light device but have yet to use it.

You guys are great.
To create the effect and "home traction" you are speaking of you might look into an inversion table. The one I have is the Teeter Hang Up and when you lie in it, ankles clamped, you can control the angle of the inversion until you are able to tolerate being completely upside down, taking all weight off of the spinal cord and skeletal muscles. This inversion table is relatively small and compact, foldable and adjustable for different heights. It cost me around $250.
 
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Sundog

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I think that reducing inflammation is key. Inflammation causes swelling and fibrosis which can narrow pathways and pinch nerves.

For me the keys have been optimizing my thyroid medication (via a good endo; I take Acella brand NP thyroid which works), plus taking high dose thiamine hcl. I recovered from rheumatoid arthritis via the thyroid medication optimized over a 6 month period. I have also managed to get my inflammation resolved that was caused by thiamine deficiency (caused primarily by lead poisoning) with the thiamine hcl.

Please note that both thiamine and thyroid are needed for good oxidative metabolism; if this is blocked by deficiencies, lactic acid results which is highly inflammatory.

My husband's spinal stenosis pain seems to be a lot better since he got his thyroid medication optimized.

Here's some links for your consideration:
This is really valuable and interesting information. Most everything I've researched concurs with the nerve inflammation being a key cause. I have seen a lot about thiamine on the forum and had glanced at a few articles at hormonesmatter also know Elio
 
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Sundog

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This is really valuable and interesting information. Most everything I've researched concurs with the nerve inflammation being a key cause. I have seen a lot about thiamine on the forum and had glanced at a few articles at hormonesmatter also know Elio
This is really valuable and interesting information. Most everything I've researched concurs with the nerve inflammation being a key cause. I have seen a lot about thiamine on the forum and had glanced at a few articles at hormonesmatter also know Elio
Sorry, my hands are numb today and hitting wrong keys. Meant to say I watched one or two videos on the EO YouTube channel as well but hadn't seen anything related to the links you posted. I will definitely do a deeper dive in this area. Thank you so much for this info. Do you think hcl is the way to go vs lipothiamine or allithiamine (or benfotiamine)? May I ask what dose you started at with the thiamine and how often you increased? Thanks again for taking the trouble to provide the info you did!
 
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Sundog

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To create the effect and "home traction" you are speaking of you might look into an inversion table. The one I have is the Teeter Hang Up and when you lie in it, ankles clamped, you can control the angle of the inversion until you are able to tolerate being completely upside down, taking all weight off of the spinal cord and skeletal muscles. This inversion table is relatively small and compact, foldable and adjustable for different heights. It cost me around $250.
Thanks - I remember the late night ads for that where the inventor jumps like an inch off the floor to show how spry he is :) But on a serious note that is a good idea, for the traction aspect that AlaskaJono was getting at I would need to add a "stretch" or reach component to the inversion, I think. Might be something here for me - thank you.
 
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Sundog

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